Original Work?

[Davidm]

Hello Guys

I am a relatively inexperienced woodturner who has only made items for myself and I have never sold anything and only recently have I offered anything for sale.  About ten or eleven years ago I was experimenting with plywood and I made a few interesting things that I thought I was going to sell, that was before I realised breathing in the glue was probably a bad idea and i quickly started using hardwood.  It panned out that only recently have i decided to try and make and sell some of the things I first made all 10 odd years ago.  I opened an etsy account and was just about to put an item for sale when the night before for some reason i had a quick google search.  On the first page an item made by a pretty famous (now dead) american woodwork designer/maker (phillip lloyd powell) looked very similar to the item i was going to put on etsy.  Now all of a sudden I have had a bit of a crisis in confidence and thinking what  on earth is it possible to sell without fear that some point in the future someone might claim that you have copied their work.  A quick google search brings up some very simple lathe turned shapes costing large sums of money made and or designed by furniture designers.  Now i am not trying to copy any work but unless you are trying to create gallery work (I guess i mean really innovative artistic gallery work) then what shapes are left to be considered original work and what is considered a legal item to sell.

I have been drawing numerous items recently and then looking on google to see if i can find a similar item and pretty much i can always find something.  so what can we make and sell is there anything we can make that is not going to infringe some copyrite or patent or some other form of protection?

Thanks in advance

Dave

ps  I must admit i am starting to think i should not have bought my lathe in the first place 

[bodrighywood]

It is almost impossible to make something that is totally original. We are all influenced by things we see and come across even if we don't realise it. It is possible to register a design right which has a limited time (think it is 7 but not sure) but it kisn't easy and is expensive. Mo and I have seen a lot of things appearing on line lately that emulate the work we have been doing but at the end of the day unless we are willing to go to crazy lengths to get design rights all we can do is be as original as possible and make sure that our work is better designed, better quality etc. if you wish to copy then my advice would be to contact the person and ask if they mind, most don't as log as you give credit. If you want to sell then  make sure there is some original interpretation that is yours alone.

Pete

[seventhdevil]

as far as design goes then it's not going to be original whatever you do. wood turning has been around for 3-4 thousand years so it will have been done before.


i'm more intrigued as to why you think you should not have bought your lathe???

[Davidm]

as far as design goes then it's not going to be original whatever you do. wood turning has been around for 3-4 thousand years so it will have been done before.


i'm more intrigued as to why you think you should not have bought your lathe???

Regarding buying my lathe -  I enjoy turning but not turning anything, I personally dont enjoy making bowls (no flame wars).  I like the design process and   I like the construction challenge and i also like to make, and the process of getting better and learning.  But the things I like to make usually involve buying wood and i cannot do that indefinitely  because of the costs and I cannot keep everything I make so I need to sell some things and it is also nice to think somebody is actually using and enjoying something that I make.   The legal issue with selling something is just giving me a headache and i was thinking  nothing is original but then again things are original and especially in the eye of the law, so will I have the same problem with my next design.  Will i have to apply for a design pattent on everything I make just to ensure that I am not copying somebody else's design.  Will I sell something on etsy only for someone to say you have copied my design and now you owe me £x.    I think with hindsight i will probably just stop making that particular item in question as it is probably just too similar.   A lot of time and effort gone down the drain so I hope i dont have the same problem in th future.   That is why I was thinking i should not have bought my lathe because of the legal stuff. I might be in my moral and legal right to make and sell what I have made but I just dont know and that is what is bothering me. That is why i asking the question

Thanks

Dave

[bodrighywood]

If you are selling your work you need to be registered as a sole trader or self employed and submit an account of your income each year to the tax man. Very simple to do unless you are earning more than the tax free limit. Apart from that there are few if any legal requirements. The issue of design is only likely to arise if you start copying registered designs, classic example is Disney who will sue even the smallest crafts people if they use any of their characters. As we have said the chances of you coming up with a totally original design are minimal. Not sure where or why you have becme so concerned about this as it isn't something that any other turner I know of is too worried about.

Pete

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Dave there was a case a while back (in America) when a person copied work from someone on the opposite coast and passed it off as their own design. But as afar as I can tell that is the only one for many years. An artist friend once said to me that there are no new shapes, and he was probably right.
My advice for what it is worth is carry on and design and make the stuff you want to make, enjoy the process and final outcome. If you feel the need to copy a person's work then ask first as Pete said either that or alter it to make it your own. Someone had to invent a turned box with a lid now we all make them, make yours better or bigger or an unusual shape but certainly make it.

[APH]

Will i have to apply for a design pattent on everything I make just to ensure that I am not copying somebody else's design.

I don't think so. What you might need to be wary of is trying to mass sell a distinctive product that could be regarded as an exact copy of an original design that sells elsewhere.
Just small detail changes from one design to another can make all the difference in 'distinctiveness'.
At worst you might get a 'cease and desist' letter from another manufacturer and if you just comply with that all should well. Also worth pointing out that anyone claiming originality would need to prove their case before taking action against others.

[APH]

If you are selling your work you need to be registered as a sole trader or self employed and submit an account of your income each year to the tax man.

Whilst you certainly need to declare any income from sales, you don't need to register as a sole trader to sell things. Doing so may cause more problems than than it prevents, unless you are actually selling as a business venture.
Take qualified advice on tax issues or contact HMRC.

[fuzzyturns]

There's nothing wrong with copying, as long as you are open about it. There are lots of people in the art world that make a very decent living out of making "official" copies of original master works.
The issue with claiming something as your own design really is that you have a hard time proving it. Even if you kept your design drawings, who's to say you didn't pick up the idea from something you saw somewhere? In general, when it comes to these questions (and should it ever go to court), the judges will try to answer the question: Is the copy trying to cash in on the success of the original? Is it trying to fool the beholder into believing it is "the" original?
As long as any of these questions can be answered with "no", you are on the safe side. So stop worrying and start making.

[bodrighywood]

If you are selling your work you need to be registered as a sole trader or self employed and submit an account of your income each year to the tax man.

Whilst you certainly need to declare any income from sales, you don't need to register as a sole trader to sell things. Doing so may cause more problems than than it prevents, unless you are actually selling as a business venture.
Take qualified advice on tax issues or contact HMRC.

Based on the advice I was given 12 years ago, if you sell work you have made you are legally classed as self employed. (see HMRC definition here). This legally even applies to those whom do boot sales by the way. I personally know of people who have  been 'hobby' crafts people who have been selling work at church hall type fairs who have had an unexpected and unwelcome letter from HMRC asking why they are not submitting a tax form as they have been visited at the fair by an anonymous inspector. If the law has changed then fair enough.

Pete

[APH]

Based on the advice I was given 12 years ago, if you sell work you have made you are legally classed as self employed.

No, you could be selling work on a hobby basis and still be in full time PAYE employment.
Have a look at https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself

I personally know of people who have  been 'hobby' crafts people who have been selling work at church hall type fairs who have had an unexpected and unwelcome letter from HMRC asking why they are not submitting a tax form as they have been visited at the fair by an anonymous inspector.

That's just about failing to declare income, not about registering as a sole trader.

[fuzzyturns]

For now, I am in the "hobby" corner, since I do have full time employment. I'd be more than happy to declare the income from my sales of turned items, if in turn I can then also claim all my expenses. And believe you me, the one holding the short straw would most definitely be HMRC, not me. So if they really want it, come and get it.

[seventhdevil]

back to the original question, Davidm i would not worry about any legal issues as long as you are  honest. i've been a turner for 10 years and others on here even longer and almost no one can come up with anyone suing anyone or even finding a complaint.

if you say i was inspired by Mr or Mrs X after looking up their work you have no comeback on the matter and will have to pay no one any money at all. the only problem is as others have highlighted if you go out of your way to conceal something and do it fraudulently or with intent to plagiarise and you do not seem the sort of person to do that considering the questions you are raising.

my advice is get on with the work you want to do and enjoy the lathe.

[John Plater]

Make what you want, how you want to and when you want to. Make sure that the piece is signed or given your makers' mark. Achieve a quality of work which satisfies your requirements and if others perceive that quality to their liking and would like to part with money for the piece then fine. Working with solid wood is more straightforward as no two pieces of material are going to be the same. You make something which is your personal response to the piece of material in front of you. Production turners may see it differently. I am not a production turner and am less likely to try to emulate their work. Perhaps plywood as a material introduces a grey area as it is an engineered material made to a standard format ? Maybe kiln dried beech or sycamore might be seen in a similar light ?
Fundamentally, for many people woodturning is a leisure pursuit, why let it create grief ?
ATB John

[bodrighywood]

As far as copying is concerned I agree with all that is being said. Go for it and enjoy. As far as the tax thing is concerned.......

Based on the advice I was given 12 years ago, if you sell work you have made you are legally classed as self employed.

No, you could be selling work on a hobby basis and still be in full time PAYE employment.
Have a look at https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself

I personally know of people who have  been 'hobby' crafts people who have been selling work at church hall type fairs who have had an unexpected and unwelcome letter from HMRC asking why they are not submitting a tax form as they have been visited at the fair by an anonymous inspector.

That's just about failing to declare income, not about registering as a sole trader.

Final say here. You really need to read the whole thing and perhaps get advice from an accountant as you can be both employed and self employed at the same time e.g. have a full time job and still need to sumbit a tax declaration either on paper by October of the relevant year or by January of the following year if online. I have been doing this for 12 years so believe me I do know what I am talking about. Though I am now a full time pro turner I started as most do selling pieces as a hobby turner and got picked up on the fact that I wasn'rt registered.
And Fuzzy you can also declare expenses.I know a number of people in your situation who get regular tax rebates as their 'income' from their 'hobby' is in the negative and is balanced against their full time income.

Pete