Crown Tools M42 Razor Edge tools.

[bernuk1]

In comparison to other metals M42 Cryo will do the job nicely, why you would want to turn all those horrible exotic woods is beyond me when we have such lovely native timbers. All I can say is that the samples I have sent out to time honored turners have come back with more than fantastic comments. And in my own use, not that I am any one worth listening too, they are my go to tool as I hate sharpening and these keep their edge far longer. My web site is I admit behind as I am chasing my tail with work, but it will but up and running soon.

I'm becoming a little confused-are the Cryo tools the razor sharp ones,or is it the PM tools ?

[GBF]

Hello Mike

The bowl gouge you used most of the time when you where here turning you Bowl was a 10mm Cryo. Then do you remember you picked up the one of the cabinet with the copper furrule that was M42 Cryo.
Do you remember how much nicer it cut we both remarked about it at the time.

Regards George

[bernuk1]

Hello Mike

The bowl gouge you used most of the time when you where here turning you Bowl was a 10mm Cryo. Then do you remember you picked up the one of the cabinet with the copper furrule that was M42 Cryo.
Do you remember how much nicer it cut we both remarked about it at the time.
Regards George

Yes I do George-when I look at crown tools for sale I see Cryo tools and PM (Powder Metallurgy) tools which are much more expensive-are The PM ones the M42 cryo,or are the M42 not yet on the market ?

Mike.

[GBF]

Hi Mike

There is HSS ,Cryo, M42 Cryo and Pro PM
For more info Ring Mark Sanger he sells all of them.
I will get Mark to put something up here to explain it all.

Regards George

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I do not normally "push" any comany's tools  but I have to say that now and then I still pick up, sharpen and use a carbon steel tool. But then I am an old fashioned turner.

[Paul Hannaby]

Out of interest, I looked on the Crown tools website. There was no mention at all on there of the M42 tools. It looks like their website hasn't been updated for 3 years.

[Mark Sanger]

i have no doubt that it is a good tool but i simply think that more extensive testing needs doing before it's claimed to be the next thing since sliced bread.

sadly we don't have the sort of timbers i need in this country but don't mis understand me mark, i do love our natives too and use sycamore and beech for my skittles along with plenty of natives for nice big bowls but i turn alot of exotic timbers as a curiosity and as part of my job. lignum is used for skittle balls but is in short supply and i'll be replacing it with angelim vermelho (dinizia excelsa) which is very hard on the tools. i have also tried others like garapa, ekki and walaba.


if i knew that these cryo tools stood up to what i put them through then i'd definitely buy some...

can i be a tester?

It is like sliced bread or not  when I was in Australia in 2012 I was given some wood by my ozzie friends to turn during a collaboration, little did I know they were sniggering their pants off behind me as they had given me some Oz timber that was as hard as hell. The wood took the edge off of the HSS and Cryo HSS, then they gave me an M42 gouge to use and it kept its edge much longer, still needed sharpening but lasted much longer.

These new M42 gouges from Crown have an extra process or two to include Cryogenic treatment giving properties that not only allow for the producing of a ultra sharp edge but also give edge retention over standard HSS M2 Cryogenic.

In relation to comparisons I agree, but the place to compare is in the metallurgy lab on hardness etc and with these the figures stack up. The testing also done to date by many turners using a selection of exotic and native timbers, burrs etc has shown that for these turners ( who also have used Cryo and PM) that they are brilliant tools. that hold there edge over the HSS and Cryo within one even saying that he rated them higher than the PM. of course I understand people being skeptical and there is so much stuff coming out on the market.

As with any tools these will not necessarily make anyone turn a perfect hollow form or bowl, but they are a pleasure to use, keep an excellent edge and I only touch mine up with a diamond hone from time to time.

I have an old lignum blank 8 x 2 inch I acquired some time ago, I will try it out to see, although I was keeping it as it is so rare now, but I guess it is no good sat there gathering dust.   

[Mark Sanger]

Hi Mike

There is HSS ,Cryo, M42 Cryo and Pro PM
For more info Ring Mark Sanger he sells all of them.
I will get Mark to put something up here to explain it all.

Regards George

Thanks for offering my time George for me to sit writing out all the info, I will send you my consulting invoice.

[Mark Sanger]

I am not a metallurgist so I will get all the relevant info together on the various metals within the Crown Range and post when I get time.

But from my limited knowledge it comes down to metal for the right job so to speak.

So list of hardness

Carbon steel

Hss

HSS Crogenic

M42

M42 Cryogenic   

Powder metal ( of which there are masses of variants right up to carbide)

So carbon steel will take an ultra sharp edge and is used by carvers, it will not hold this edge long though so is not favored now in turning, but if you had a specif carbon steel honed for a finial finishing cut you would get an excellent finish.

then they get harder, but it is not only down to hardness but also edge retention and formation, a tool that is ultra hard may not necessarily hold an ultra fine edge but but may hold a very sharp edge for much longer so may be a good tool to use then turning burrs that may have grit etc in them.

So as has been mentioned about woods with silica, this found in timbers can kill a tool edge, so you may need a tool that is ultra hard again, but this may not give you the sharpest edge.

Often it is a balancing act between the hardness, edge produced and how long this can be maintained.

From this I hope you can understand that there are many variables depending upon the material turned and your desired needs from the tool and the process you are undergoing.

As said I am not a metal expert so will get the info for you.

and I will send the invoice to George 

[GBF]

Thank you Mark I knew you could do it as for the invoice you can stick it where the monkey sticks his nuts LOL

Regards George

[seventhdevil]

that's some good info mark, thanks.

save your lignum blank as that is relatively easy to turn in comparison to the timbers i'm thinking of.

the really hard to turn african, australian and south american timbers from these areas can yield some tricky customers and i could provide you with some of you like so you could see what i mean?

i could send you some greenheart, angelim vermelho, ekki or ipe if you like.

[Mark Sanger]

that's some good info mark, thanks.

save your lignum blank as that is relatively easy to turn in comparison to the timbers i'm thinking of.

the really hard to turn african, australian and south american timbers from these areas can yield some tricky customers and i could provide you with some of you like so you could see what i mean?

i could send you some greenheart, angelim vermelho, ekki or ipe if you like.

Thanks for your reply. Yes I have turned such woods one point I highlighted previously in relation to turning the Ozzie wood with the M42 while in Oz, and the Crown M42 Razor edge have a further cryogenic treatment so I know how they will cope with hard woods.

The place for testing is in the metallurgy lab which has been done, the reason for this is that there are scientifically proven methods of testing hardness/Rockwell and tensile testing and then the balance between each depending upon application.

It is kind of you to offer these woods, but as I say I have turned some of them and know the outcome and indeed had a piece of green heart brought to me a while ago. I however choose to only turn very few exotics as I see no point in raping the world of exotic woods that come from countries where there have been proven cases of corruption and vast sums of money changing hands to get the appropriate paperwork signed off to show it is from a sustainable source when it is not.

Also my preference is not to turn woods that have been transported on vast journeys on fuel guzzling and CO2 spewing vehicles and ships just to satisfy my need to turn something when we have so many amazing home grown timbers that I can obtain 20 minutes from away.

Most exotic timbers are horribly noisy, dusty and toxic when turned, in fact I would go as far to say vile so I make the choice not to.

I am sure that you understand about Hardness and tensile testing, I have to say I remember the basics from my apprenticeship days but that is a distant memory so I have included some PDF links below for you to get into.

http://civil.eng.buffalo.edu/CIE616/2-LECTURES/Lecture%204a%20-%20Material%20Testing/HARDNESS%20TEST.pdf

http://www.asminternational.org/documents/10192/3465262/05105G_Chapter_1.pdf/e13396e8-a327-490a-a414-9bd1d2bc2bb8

The effects of Cryogenic treatment on M42 HSS below and a direct quote (source kivak PDF, page 2 chapter 1)

y. In the literature, results showed
tool-life improvements ranging from 92 % to 817 % for
the cryogenically treated HSS tools in the industrial
use.13

http://mit.imt.si/Revija/izvodi/mit156/kivak.pdf

There is not a need for me to send any more tools out for testing as this has been done, also the science produced by scientists and metallurgist are proven.

I will attempt to get the Rockwell figures if I get time today the tools, however a higher figure does not necessarily mean a longer edge retention as it is a combination of hardness, tensile and other properties. As explained in some depth within the PDF below

http://www.isibang.ac.in/~library/onlinerz/resources/Enghandbook.pdf

The benefits of Cryogenic treatment over just surface hardening is that it changes the molecular structure through the entire metal as clarified on the front page of the web site below.

http://www.metlabheattreat.com/cryogenic-treatment.html

As it can be seen there is quite  a bit of science that goes into the producing of various metals and Crown Tools are not in the business I would say of not knowing their trade. For this reason and the in depth knowledge require to produce such tools I simply ask the question of the experts ' what are the benefits' ? ' they are sharper edge and longer wear resistance'  that is all I need to know and in use they are markedly better.

[bernuk1]

A fascinating thread,for many reasons  However something is missing-it's what tools are available,how much are they and who actually has any for sale ?
I've looked at several websites and not found them-No mention of them even on Crown Tools site !!

regards,

Mike

[GBF]

Vey well put Mark I am sorry I volunteered you for this as I know you are busy.

Regards George

[bodrighywood]

A fascinating thread,for many reasons  However something is missing-it's what tools are available,how much are they and who actually has any for sale ?
I've looked at several websites and not found them-No mention of them even on Crown Tools site !!

regards,

Mike

First post in this thread, Marks email. He is the agent for Crown and sells them.

Pete