Hands on

[TONY MALIN]

Wonderfull!!
We've now turned (pun intended) full circle. Hands on to hands off!!

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

you are right of course Tony but look at the fun we have had along the way.

[GBF]

Hi all.

We don't have hands on in our club anymore for several reasons.
We can only store one lathe in the venue were we have our meetings I used to take in three lathe's and all the equipment for hands on for about four years and it was a waste of time.
Members just could not be bothered or were too shy to have a go.
Grown men shy can you beleave.
I had to store all the equipment and getting help with it was nearly impossible they were all to frail or them that were not were working.
Another thing was safety at the last hands on we had a young lad about 14 and two of the seasoned turners were showing him techniques that I considered to advanced for an absolute beginner or were wrong and possibly dangerous.
Every month now we have a demo and everybody seems to be happy.
Four times a year I have an open day in my workshop so that members can come along and have a go and get help with their turning.The last time I did it only 2 bothered to turn up and they were committee members so either they know it all already or cant be bothered.We have another open day on the 14 of next month if members don't use it they will lose it I am fed up giving up my time for people that cant be bothered.

Regards George

Something else committee members need to remember if there is a accident they can be held responsible It is all OK until something goes wrong and then the were there is blame there is a claim brigade turn up.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Of course you are right George, during hands on events you need eyes up your you know what! I have a small group of tried and trusted turners in the club who I rely on to to help me with the supervision and so far (fingers crossed) we have yet to experience any problems. I fully agree that some members appear to be too shy to have a go but we always insist that everyone is given the opportunity, you can take a horse to water etc etc.

[TONY MALIN]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear! Why did you add the footnote George?

As I understand it those involved in an event, not necessarily committee, ARE responsible for using their best endeavours to ensure generally accepted safety procedures are in place. From that position insurance applies.
It surely follows that the individuals concerned ARE NOT responsible per se for an accident.

Our club uses the Craftsman Policy and I have written assurance that this includes member to member cover.

However I'm not sure of the outcome if it were to be deemed that there had been willful disregard of these measures. I sincerely hope that situation doesn't arise.

[GBF]

Hi Tony.

I think you will find that as committee members you have a responsibility to lay down the rules and make sure everybody applies them and stays safe.Unfortunately in this day and age we cannot hide behind insurance or assume that everybody has common sense.
In theory we should all produce risk assessments .

Regards George

[TONY MALIN]

Under what regulations?

[TONY MALIN]

We do not hide behind insurance. We get financial cover in the event of  a claim following an accident (with provisos).

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Tony although not governed by them as such my club committee is run on the Nolan principles, good enough for them good enough for my club.

[GBF]

Hi Tony.

I think it is more or less the same principle as company directors can now be held to task if something goes wrong and in some cases if the are proven to be negligent or irresponsible they can go to jail.I am not trying to be alarmist I am just saying it is something we as committee members need to bare in mind.
This is all I will be saying on the subject as I don't want to be drawn in any further.
Off course I could be wrong it would not be the first time

Regards George

[TONY MALIN]

So I've now looked up Nolan.
Whilst his 7 principles are very laudable they relate to Public Office and I don't see their relevance to the committee of a private club.
I tend to deprecate the application of documents outside their initial remit, but I admit we feel a need to be seen to follow relevant H & S regs, specifically PAT.

I too will refrain from further comment unless something new crops up.

[Dave Atkinson]

Hello
Just read Tony's comment about H&S regs specially PAT testing.  A quick search on the HSE website www.hse.gov.uk for pats testing will take you to a page with a set of FAQs and answers.  This clearly states that PAT testing is not a legal requirement.  A visual inspection by a competent person will, in many cases, suffice.
Of course there is nothing wrong with taking the view that your club will enforce such testing.

George also mentions Risk assessments.  Both the policy we used from I Wallace and the new one from Tennyson require risk assessment to be In place for each club/branch.  Guidance on this is provided in the handbook of which each club or branch has a copy.  This guidance is based on the HSE's guide to risk assessments

Basically it boils down to common sense.  If you think it's wrong then don't take the chance.  But don't overdo it.  Risk assessment is not about avoiding all risks and creating a risk free society (hse again!)

John (BHT) our safety officer can help you with these if you have any queries.

Cheers Dave

[TONY MALIN]

I agree entirely Dave.
However the argument we have adopted is that if a case arose it could be argued that PAT is best practice, so much as we feel it's OTT it is better to do it.

Unless there's been a change Tudor Rose insist on equipment taken to their show is certified. Which I think is because it takes place in a public authority hall, but also because the system is operated close to its limit.

I'm also aware from someone who until recently was involved in testing that faults were sometimes found.

This is another example of legislation being misapplied. It was intended to improve the safety of workers operating electrics in all sorts of situations where portable really meant more than just movable.

[Dave Atkinson]

Hi

Tony and I have had some offline communications and we disagree about the need for a risk assessment.

As a result of our emails I have agreed that I would clarify the statement I made about Risk Assessments.  The policy from Tennyson, and indeed the Craftsman Policy, doe not actually state a risk assessment is required. 

However, in my discussions with Tennyson they have indicated that they would expect one to be in place.  This demonstrates that the club or individual has considered the risks and put in place reasonable precautions.  This is a very useful document to have in the event of a Public Liability Claim. 

As I've said before we are not in a position to give insurance advice and if you have a concern or query please contact your insurance broker.

It is also recommended within the AWGB Handbook that a risk assessment is in place and the templates and examples are also available, as is help from John the safety rep.

The risk assessment is basic common sense and the AWGB guidance follows the HSE's guidance on this topic.

As an example an entry may be (It's actually a table in MSWord and therefore much easier to read )

What are the hazards?
Lathes

Who might be harmed and how?   
Demonstrator/Audience.  Tripping over unsecured  leads.  Lathe not being stable and falling, lathe unsteady, personal injury.

What are you already doing?   
Lathes should be of an appropriate condition, size and specification for the demonstration being staged.
Cables running along floors to be appropriately covered.

What further action is necessary?
Inspection on the day to check all lathes are appropriate for the demonstrations planned– resolve issues before demo.

Action by whom?   
Committee member allocated to that demo.       

Actions by when?   
Prior to commencing the meeting and during usage.

I hope that clarifies the situation

Cheers Dave

[TONY MALIN]

Thanks for that clarification Dave. Anyone with a copy of the Craftsman Policy should re-read Clause 14 on Page 13.

I want to emphasise the fact that our club does not do a "Risk Assessment" does not mean that we do not assess risks.
Why don't we? For the simple reason that all sorts of complications can arise when you commit to writing. (Think of the present difficulties for the Government in dealing with the Anti Terrorism Act).
The fact that you may have a written Risk Assessment is of little use if you err in practice. It's what you do that matters not what you say you do.
I've said a number of times on this forum that you can only rely on the wording of the policy and if there is a dispute then ultimately only a court can decide if something was reasonable or not.

We've been in existence long enough to know what to look out for, but were a bit surprised recently when meths was sprayed onto a thin walled goblet and ignited to dry the surface before sanding. It was a bit like a chip pan fire. Not very safe for someone with facial hair!!