When does the 'decoration' become more important than the 'piece'?

[Les Symonds]

Sally and I recently took a delightful walk through forest tracks to reach a gallery that we hadn't visited before. We knew nothing about the gallery in advance; we had simply seen a sign stapled to a fence post, so we went for it. We were a little disappointed when we got there, to find that it was a photography gallery, rather than one displaying more 'hands-on' types of art/craft work, but we had a good look around whilst we were there. It was then that I spotted something that raised this argument in my mind, and I've been struggling with it over the last week.
What I saw was a photograph of a view that I am quite familiar with - the enchanting, Victorian water-outlet control tower on a local reservoir, complete with its cylindrical stone towers and conical, leaded roofs. Behind it was a backdrop of trees, the colours of which perfectly reflected the verdigris blue/greens in the leadwork, and the orange and ochre streaks of rust from the ironwork. That's when something jarred! I know the woodland, and its principally coniferous, so where were the beautiful autumnal colours coming from? The photographer realised that I was studying the picture rather closely, and he then admitted that the photo was taken in the summer, but he wasn't sufficiently pleased with it as it was, so he digitally enhanced it to make it more sale-able. Scots Pines were turning orange for autumn! So at that point, the photograph no longer reflects his skill as a photographer, but as an IT practitioner, and it no longer interested me as i felt that it totally lacked integrity.
Are we in danger of venturing too far down the same track with our work? Is Mike Gibson's teapot a piece of turning, or is it principally a piece of artwork produced by his wife, Cynthia http://www.awgb.co.uk/awgbforum/index.php/topic,1615.0.html ? Don't get me wrong on this one, I can see the degree of skill that has gone into both the making of the pot, which has its own, inherent beauty, and I can equally appreciate the skill of the hand of the pyrographer.
A local professional artist recently appraised my 'Steampunk' vase and commented that it would need to sell as a piece of art in an appropriate gallery, rather than as a piece of woodturning http://www.awgb.co.uk/awgbforum/index.php/topic,1843.0.html .
The American site 'Woodturners Unlimited' recently brought to my notice the work of a Russian pyrographer - http://gladenko.ru/galery - whose work is almost photographic, and which just happens to use wood as a medium upon which to burn an image; which, incidentally, is done with hot air rather than hot wires or brands. The work is undoubtedly artistic, and in my opinion, quite some distance over the line of the argument, 'When does the 'decoration' become more important than the 'piece?'

Over to you....what's your opinion?


Les

[Mark Sanger]

Hi Les

This is an often debated subject which has no finite answer as there is no correct way of working, just the way 'we' want to work, for ourselves.

I have to ask, what does it matter,? and why do you ask this question. ?

Is it because you feel that people do not appreciate the unadulterated craftsmanship of a pure piece of work compared to something that has been added to.? or that they should hold the prior in more high regard than is current.?

You ask 'are we in danger of venturing too far down the same track',  I have to ask, what is the danger if we do, and does it matter. ?

I enjoy producing both pure and coloured work, in the former I enjoy the pure form and inherent beauty of the wood, in the latter I use the wood as a canvas to express my thoughts, ideas and interests with no concern for the wood at all other than the base form.

For a piece to have the wow factor it has to start with have a solid foundation on which to build. A poor form and finish no matter how much it is added to will never hit the wow factor.  

Paul Hannaby said something in a previous thread which was very true and poignant. It was in relation to the subject of creativity etc and went something like 'it is not important as it is only decoration'.

I would go as far to include all woodturning and much of what we do in life to this. None of it really matters and as long as we enjoy what we do then why concern ourselves with it.

The issue if looking at selling is slightly different, as mentioned later in your opener. In this instance picking your outlets will of course come down to the type of work you are trying to sell.

Many mixed media galleries for instance will not take woodturning as we know it as they sell contemporary, modern work, and will stock work that is in keeping with the style of the gallery.

Most woodturning is bowls, platters, candlesticks etc and hold little interest for them in relation to fitting in to the ethos of the gallery. It does not mean that they are not well made high quality items, just it does not fit in with the gallery style.  It is not a negative just they sell modern stuff and most woodturning is very much of traditional style, take the ogee bowl for instance.  They will take work but of a more sculptural/modern styles and then some just won't be interested in wood full stop.

Just like every outlet they sell what fits in with their style. Look at all the fashion outlets in the high street and you will see they all sell their own style for a particular market.

Mike and Cynthia sell their collaborative work for big bucks, that in itself may go some way to answer you, but most of all they will, I am sure enjoy deeply what they produce, this I imagine being the main driving forced behind their work.  

The photographer you spoke to obviously sells his work to make money, it may even be his living. So if he has added to his work to make it more sellable, then surely he is thinking with a business head on. I think much in the same way, I send bread and butter items to the craft galleries where I know it will sell and my coloured sculptural work to those where I know I can get the correct money for them. If I did it the other way around I wouldn't make any money. Thats just business and marketing.  

[Bryan Milham]

Les,

I used to think as you have written, if it's wood, then let it be wood.

But Mark Sanger's and other wood artists works are rubbing off on me and I'm now comfortable with the idea that some work needs to be 'Round and Brown' but in other cases the wood is just a workable medium for the presentation of the end product.

The Mona Lisa is painted on a board, not canvas - does that make it wrong?

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Les well done on creating another thread that may run for a while, such good fun.
         for many years I had been a" round and brown" man, and in certain circumstances I suppose I still am. I still get the feeling that nothing can be done to improve a beautiful piece of wood except polish it. But my thinking is changing and I find myself constantly challenging my thinking.
     I have noticed that for a little while now, apart from the work I have to produce in order to eat, I find myself looking at wood and the forms I have made purely as a blank canvass and treating them as such.
       Some of the old masters used to include the odd building or scenery in their paintings that were never located where the painting was supposed to be, but it was no less of a master piece for it and this is exactly what you have described your photographer doing. You are now in a special position as you were able to see the separate elements and know from whence they came, something I have always wanted to do with some of the old Master's paintings as you see the art critics doing.
          I do feel that it is important for arts and crafts to be constantly evolving so as to maintain the interest of the current (viewing) generation. I am sure that Picasso came in for some stick as he developed a style totally different from what was considered normal for the day (cubism) This was either seen as the work of a great man or of one who was deranged. If he had not dared to explore his art in this way the world may not have had the opportunity to witness some of his finest work IMHO.
       As far as Mike and Cynthia's work is concerned who cannot fail to be impressed not just by the quality, which I think is outstanding but by the concept of some of their designs.
      I do not aspire to be famous or rich(but a bit more would be nice) but I would like my work to be recognizable and well thought of.I know that there are collectors out there who are including my work in their collections and that is a nice feeling but the nicer feeling for me is when I create what for me is a totally new idea, purely because having these ideas is very hard work for me, and my goal at the moment is to come up with a totally original idea, I may have to wait for that one though.
      So to answer your question "when does the decoration become more important than the piece?" My answer is the decoration along with the choice of it's support structure(canvass) is the piece. It should be viewed as a whole made up from individual elements.
Regards
John BHT
         

[malcy]

Well guys, here's my two penny worth. I think today that we tend to try to 'pigeon hole' everything. Yes we are wood turners, but shouldn't we try to widen our horizons?What does it matter if a piece is decorated. That is another skill that we as wood turners should be enveloping, be it with paint, burning, texture or whatever. As turners of wood, we should develop our skills and use new techniques to appeal to a wider and ever discerning audience. Yes, wood grains are beautiful especially when displayed in the right format, but that doesn't mean they cannot be enhanced and added to, especially when the wood has very little grain pattern to it. Malcolm.

[bodrighywood]

Not sure if I can add on what has already been said but I'll try. Woodturning is a skill, a craft and when done in certain ways becomes an art. If you are trying to produce  a practical item then the wood is all that is needed generally, practicality and usability being the main aim. If however you are also trying to produce something that can be defined as art then you are entering a different field all together. Either you see the wood as a blank canvas, shaped to fit your idea of the end result or you see it as part of a completed work. If you make pieces like Marks or Binh Pos then the turning is integral as it provides the shape and form that you will then enhance with decoration etc. A bad shape, badly turned will do nothing to bring that sense of 'Wow' you get when you see them. Your vase is, as said, IMHO more art than craft as it is not a practical piece but is using the shape and material to create something that will make people think, evoke emotion which is what art should be about. Simplifying it totally, people can look at a piece of wood turning , decorated or not and either think that it is really useful or really beautiful. Whether it is decorated in some way or not is actually irrelevant. Same applies to pottery, metal; work, pretty much any craft.

Pete

[woodndesign]

Les, You've come up with something again of interest and the others have all touched on an integral part of all Art ...

Going by Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia....

Artistic license (also known as dramatic license, historical license, poetic license, narrative license, licentia poetica, or simply license) is a colloquial term, sometimes euphemism, used to denote the distortion of fact, alteration of the conventions of grammar or language, or rewording of pre-existing text made by an artist to improve a piece of art...

We are told our Ancestors did the first Cave paintings .. on Rock .. as mentioned on wood, may well have been the next .. if not painting each other, well tattoos .. but on wood Religious Icons ..The Virgin, Saints and Apostles to name a few in Art ... not to mention painted Furniture .. what would Thomas Chippendale have thought to see such things..  Today a grain film over mdf or veneer faced ply ... paint optional ..

The one thing which took over from wood (which we try to emulate in form) .. Pottery, China and Porcelain which has been decorated over the Centuries .. Moorcroft being one of the finest, if not again to everyones taste.

Now what was the Sistine Chapel ceiling ... Art wise it's been paper or canvas paintings over time.

Back to wood and yes,Decoration on wood has it's place, we find as said it's over the bland timbers, or the very light stains over Ash or others to enhance the grain, where carving is done, as with Hughie work sets off the more exotic timbers ... should anyone paint those ..   .. the end is whatever the piece, it is bespoke by the person who made it from WOOD .. the craft or Art of Woodturning.

IMHO   David

[Les Symonds]

Well, Mark, Bryan, John, Malcy, Pete and Dewi....thanks for your extensive input. It's great to see that you are, generally, all of one mind and whilst I am able to know my own opinions and make up my own mind, it's really helpful to know that there's such a strong body of opinion out there. I'm beginning to experiment with colour ( albeit on Christmas baubles) and the Steampunk vase has really pushed me into moving away from what was once my firmly held belief that wood-is-good and that decoration might just be getting in the way. Whilst I genuinely admire the sort of work that Mark and Andy (to name just two) show us frequently, I still haven't ventured far down that road, but I now feel a bit more confident about starting out. Looks like I just might put a pyrography machine on my combined birthday/Christmas present list!

Thanks again, guys.....helpful as ever!

Les

[Bryan Milham]

Les,

the use of colour, texture, pyro, carving etc may have escaped you (so far), but your use of semi-precious stones is inspiring in it's own way. You're developing a style of your own that is growing with your skills. Allow time for the additional skills to be needed and use your cast-offs (mishaps) for playing/experimenting with new ideas. Remember, very few ideas work first time.

[Les Symonds]

Thanks, Bryan...that's reassuring.

Les

[hughie]

Well with the rise of all sorts of new technology shorts cut come along as well and no doubt new 'arts' will arise out of the technology.
But I still believe the artist should be able to create master piece with any enhancement of the piece by manipulation through new technology. It is all matter of taste and judgement of what art is or is not.
I can only offer up what I do with the embellishment of the pieces I make. They are all hand done and sold as such and this is feature that is promoted by the gallery as a measure of quality and artistry.
 

[Paul Hannaby]

I don't think the decoration is more important than the piece but it can elevate it to another level if the combined result hits the mark.

I would also say that far too often decoration, texture, carving, colouring, pyrography etc. is applied to a piece that was wrong to start with and in those situations, the addition does nothing to salvage it!

[bodrighywood]

I have to agree with Paul that unless the original, undecorated piece is a good shape and well made no amount of decoration will make it better. To me that smacks of using decoration to disguise bad workmanship. Doesn't work......I tried LOL.

Pete