Discuss - Technique or end result?

[Richard Findley]

There have been a few comments recently that have suggested technique is less important than the end result...

I won't add my thoughts just yet, just interested in other people's thoughts.

Please discuss....

Richard

[woodndesign]

It will be very interesting to see just how well this will be discussed, Richard, I have my outspoken views, but for now, I wait to see the outcome.

Cheers   David

[Les Symonds]

As a relative newcomer, my opinion is biased, but then that is the very nature of all opinion; it is shaped by one's own circumstances. What is important is that we learn to accept opinion for what it is.

Fact, however, is something quite different. 'Fact' is irrefutable, but only once it is proven to be fact. So unless somebody is able to provide irrefutable proof that they are in possession of the facts, then we simply have to accept that opinion will vary and that means that none of us in wrong, even though each of us, for our own set of circumstances, can be right.

From my own standpoint, I sit back in awe at some of the turning that I see on the pages of this forum and in other publications. What is inmportant for me, and is therefore the basis of my opinion, is that whilst I cannot (yet?) aspire to the skills and techniques that some of you guys have developed over the years, I will try to emulate the quality of your work by giving every attention that I can to the shape and to the finish of my work. This might well mean seeking inspiration from you and it might well mean a lot of use of the scraper and of abrasives whilst I develop my skills.

Thus my opinion is that end result is most important. I will concentrate on this for now, but I will never cease to try to develop my technique.


Les

[Bryan Milham]

Strange as it may sound, I think they both have their place.

We had a demonstration at the club one night and as far as I was concentred the demonstrators tool control was (eh…) lacking! Then having got to a certain point the demonstrator made the comment; ‘From here I’d sand, it’s a good job I like sanding.’ Looking at the pieces brought in for us to see I have to agree that sanding achieved the aim of producing wonderful looking work. Even if I was not enamoured at the work that would be involved in achieving it in retrospect.

However, and although you could sand a lump of 2” x 2” into one of Cindy Drozda’s wonderful finials, it would not be cost/time effective for the likes of Richard to sand a banister spindle from a square of wood.

Tool control and technique is needed for speed of work and/or to reduce the amount of finishing needed to achieve the required end result. But only where the wanted result can be achieved that way.

As examples (two but I can think of many);

• Mark Sangers Swan form, started on the lathe but then took a lot of work off of it to complete.

• Jo Winters Cherry Bowl, certainly turned but then the lip was shaped and feet sanded from the finished lathe work.

If the final form is anything beyond Round & Brown, the final form will have required more than Tool Technique at the lathe.

[bodrighywood]

Both are equally important to achieve something that is a step beyond good. Having something that is beautifully and artistically designed but has tool or sanding marks, end grain rough patches etc is as bad IMHO as having a piece that is perfectly tooled and finished but has little or no aesthetic appeal. I personally feel that even novice turners can learn good design making simple (skill wise) pieces. I am sure many of us have seen those bowls, goblets etc that are well produced but leave us cold. There are members on here who are self proclaimed novices but are making items that have good design and are attractive in their own right so it can be done. If, like Richard, you are often making pieces for restoration or repair then design is dictated to by the original and so the finish and technique is more important as is the ability to copy turn, another skill again, but if you are turning to produce one off items then design is as important and should be taught alongside technique.

Pete

[john taylor]

The end result is important, especially if you want to sell the items.

Good technique is also important as it makes things easier, quicker and cheaper to do.

So my thoughts are that they are both important but the end result is more important than technique, just, how you arrive at the end result is up to you and as long as you are happy with the way you did it.

I am always trying to improve my technique so getting a good end product is easier so the circular argument continues.

Finally I would say they are equally important.

john

[Jacktownhill]

I always remember Andy Coates saying -

"If a hobbyist takes a week to finish working a roughly tooled bowl & in doing so,works down from 60 Grit to 1000 Grit & is satisfied with the result - Then I as a Professional make a similar object in an hour or so using 99% tooling & barely finishing with sanding.

The Two finished items standing side by side may not look so dissimilar? But - Who is entitled to judge which is the better??"

Surely this Association of ours is set up to encourage all. Be they Amateur or professional. We all join the association to gain benefit & knowledge from other more experienced people.

My own turning has improved in leaps & bounds after being guided by more experienced Turners & then understanding the need & subsequently receiving tuition from Professionals.

Thank goodness that our Organisation as a whole has a membership that is pleased to pass on good advice & the benefits of experience - Be that either from Professional or well meaning amateurs.

I also confess to occasionally still reaching for a Scraper instead of a Gouge or Skew. I still cover up the occasional gaff with a bit of unspoken heavy sanding.
But i love woodturning & am quietly satisfied with a few of my results.

I still aim to get better & love watching "THE FEW" who inspire me to achieve better !!

[Andy Coates]

I can't NOT wade in to this one...especially as Jack's already cited me!

The answer rather depends on what you want to be: 1) a woodturner, or 2) a maker who uses a lathe as a carpenter uses a saw.

If 1) then tool technique is everything. It's what allows us to produce the shape we are aiming at with safety, ease, and certainty.

If 2) then it matters not. You can happily hack a rough shape and take it from there.

My own opinion is that tool technique (which includes sharpening, presentation, and the process of shaping) is all. The skills are not, relatively, difficult to achieve, provide for a healthy does of self satisfaction when acquired, and will stand you in good stead no matter where you take your craft thereafter. And at the same time can save you untold Mtrs of 80grit cloth at £3.95M.

When I have heard tool technique belittled as unimportant it is usually by makers who do not produce pure turnings (such as myself), but who then go on to apply other surface texture or applications. That's all well and good. But those applications and treatments are just the "techniques" of another craft/art...so why are those techniques worthy of keeping and developing and not those of the turner?

If we don't practice the techniques they will eventually be lost and then we'll be incapable of passing them on.

In Mark's statement (not here) I understand him to be asking a slightly different question...not so much denigrating technique, but rather those turners who are sticklers for technique yet show little (or no) interest in development, exploration, progression, or "difference".

I know a turner with tool technique that would give Mike Darlow a run for his money, but his work is all copied, and as a result, DULL DULL DULL. Why master the skills and then fail to use them to their fullest advantage?

In the real world "the end justifies the means" may well be the mantra, but for me (and by association the association) preserving tool technique is as much about preserving the craft as it is about the production of clean shapes and features.

I've often said in demonstrations that once you've learnt the "rules" and acquired the skills you'll then find a dozen ways to use the tool "wrongly" to achieve your aims, but this is only a safe practice when you understand the tool, the material, and the way the two interact.

And anyway...if I'd wanted to achieve shapes and forms with abrasive I wouldn't have bought a lathe.

My advice as always is, learn the techniques, master them, and then use your imagination and fly!

[Paul Disdle]

Achieving a good end result is very important and we should all strive for the best results we can achieve.

Good technique is going to be the most effective / effcient way of achieving the end result.

I am discovering as I turn more and witness more demos that tool technique is continuing to evolve as people discover new ways to present tools and new ways to shape tool profiles. So technique is always being learnt.

Just my thoughts

Paul

[bodrighywood]

Sounds like we are all saying the same thing using different words. Perfecting your technique will make you a good wood turner but if you aspire to produce things that have artistic merit (can apply to chair legs and stair finials as well as more dramatic things) then you need to develop other skills alongside them. Bottom line what do you, as a wood turner, want to achieve? To achieve certain designs you need to develope new texhnique skills so it is definitely catch 22. You can't really have one without the other

Pete

[Paul Hannaby]

technique is less important than the end result...

Before I give my answer, some observations...

There is an assumption here that there is a right technique and a wrong one. Who decides (or dictates) which is which?

If there was only one way to do things, there would only be one of each type of tool but instead, we have "signature" tools on offer from a wide spectrum of experts so it must follow that each one has a different technique.

My answer to the question is this - neither the technique nor the end result is important, it's only for decoration after all!

[woodndesign]

Interesting on the "signature" tools and the experts name on it, how should it differ from any other of that kind, it has  been developed by technique to be the ultimate tool for a purpose, then a similar tool can be ground to the same profile, why pay dear for a name on a tool, it's not going to make anyone else a better turner, less they understand the technique involved with it.

As Keith Rowley would have advocated, follow the basic laws of turning, bevel contact, master spindle work and stringing design together in that form, practise, practise and practise, you'll perfect form and in time, design... and continue improving.

Les Thorne puts it as turn to a sandable finish and that's not 60 - 80 .. more like 120 - 180 .. what should it be, Les.

If anyone needs to practise their tooling skills, try pine and then say technique doesn't play a part in a fine finish off the tool.

Cheers  David

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

An interesting thread and some interesting answers,some that have surprised me.
I am sure we all want a good end result. As we work at something, anything it doesn't matter what, we will develop a better technique for doing it or making it, that I think is human nature. When I was working on the bench we used to say that joiners were the laziest workers,why? because to achieve the good end product that most joiners end up with we used to make jigs and patterns to make repetitions easier.This is just best practice, not necessarily the right practice.
        I support Andy's view about learning the rules before you can break them, if you do not understand the rules then the reasons for having a lesser quality cut will not be evident but if you have never had a good quality cut you will not understand what all the fuss is about, it is only by using correct tool application that will allow you to explore the myriad of uses and different applications that lumped together make up what is termed technique.
       One of the problems facing a production turner like myself is the inability to come up with original designs, I pride my self on being able to make anything I am asked to make, but it is not my design.
So to all intents and purposes I have a tool missing from my armoury, that of vision or design or whatever you wish to call it and no amount of good tool technique will enable me to create something new and different. But good tool technique will allow me to choose the quality of the end product more accurately than poor tool use will.
Imagine that all the turners in the world have different ideas about the craft and they all spend their time walking around a pyramid that has 4 sides so there is a chance they will never meet. Now imagine that all those turners decide to climb the pyramid and so with a bit of common thought they all end up on top and eventually all will meet and that will only be achieved in real life if we all want to improve.
Regards
John BHT

[Mark Sanger]

This is always an interesting subject. I am not sure what the comments were suggesting that 'technique is less important than the end result', if it was my comments in the other thread I clarify by copying them again here.  

 'Woodturners as a whole do seem to be heavily involved/concerned in learning tool technique but do not seem to put the same energy into learning about design'.

I believe there is a marked difference in these two sentences.

Of course technique is important, it is very important. Anyone who has been to one of my demo's can make up their own mind if I pay attention to technique and how efficient it may or may not be.

I will take it that it was my comments which started you off Richard on this thread.  

So here are my thoughts.  

Just as Les said they are my opinions. I would however say that on numerous occasions they have been reinforced by my contact with galleries and many makers including woodturners, so are based on evidence and not just pulled from the air. ( not that you were insinuating this Les) but your point about our opinions is valid. And my thoughts may not be relevant to someone working in a different way to me.

The craft of turning has it's foundation in technique and this history and skill should never be disregarded, as tool technique is the 'foundation' of what we do and is the vehicle we use to achieve what we set out to make.

But then all crafts are founded in technique. Research any pure artists, sculptor, glass or ceramics maker and you will find all that they make comes from technique, every brush stroke, moulding of the clay is founded in technique.

I always say at the beginning of a demo something like this.

'What I am going to show you is not the only way to work, it may not be the best way, it is just my way, the only thing I say about technique is that as long as what you do is safe and it works for you to produce the end result then go with it'.  

I also go on one to say ' always strive for good technique but do not be a slave to it, technique will come in time with practice, but also concentrate on design and finish, as this is what people see'.

The more I hear the words 'professional' or 'hobby' turner, the more I dislike the distinctions. Nothing against anyone using them, but these distinctions hold little in reality. There are some in the former that produce work less refined than those in the latter, so I personally discount the distinction and just look at the end result.

If you are full time and make a living you may be in one of three camps.

1/ A pure production turner producing for the main, pre-designed work/replication of existing items. As such the amount of money earned will directly relate to the efficiency and level of your tool technique, with the design consideration being a replication of the customers drawings or items brought in to be replicated.

However the design and quality of work will be the perfection of beads, coves etc within the overall piece with the end visual quality being what the customer will pay for.

Indeed will they pay for a stair spindle of pair of candlesticks where the details have been sanded to oblivion. ? They are paying for the quality.  

Does the customer hand over the money as they are happy with the end result or the fact that you may or may not have rolled the beads with a skew or spindle gouge. !

2/ Aesthetic, gallery, commission work. Small batch or one offs sold in the main as an interior accessory. The prime consideration here will probably be the visual impact of the piece, unless you are selling items for pence, in which case people will be happy to part with their money for it.

If you do not need to make a living from your work then the efficiency of tooling is much less relevant than the end result as it just means you make less profit/percentage for time spent.

If you make a living from this type of work then you have to be efficient with your tooling but design comes to the forefront. The item is sold purely on design, how much profit you make will come down to both tooling and design. If the item does not sell due to poor design and finish the technique will have meant little.


This brings me back to the question that has been raised dozens of times over the years in forums, turning magazines etc. 'Why does turning not get the respect of other crafts' and 'How can we raise the profile of turning'.

This being the reason for my comments in the other thread.

So to clarify . Yes tool technique is very important but just think for a while how our work may benefit if we also spend as much time learning about good design as we do technique

How many times when you go to a demo or read a book/magazine do you ask or search out how the maker comes to create the design, or do you go straight to the tool and technique pages/questions. ? How often do you research and learn about design for your own projects beyond the prescribed article used as a base for exploration. ?

There will be some that pay a lot of attention to design and finish, these being the ones who work we admire, be it pure work or other, the type is for me not relevant.

Of course if concentrating on tool technique is what you enjoy then that's great, it is your craft and your time after all. Just don't keep saying you are fed up, or keep trying to work out why woodturning does not realise the same money or respect as other crafts if you don't hold design in the same respect as technique.

My thoughts, you can decide based on what you want to achieve if they are applicable or not to you.

  Richard  definitely think we should take some time in the evenings to discuss this at the next seminar.   My first round.  

[Mark Sanger]

An interesting thread and some interesting answers,some that have surprised me.
I am sure we all want a good end result. As we work at something, anything it doesn't matter what, we will develop a better technique for doing it or making it, that I think is human nature. When I was working on the bench we used to say that joiners were the laziest workers,why? because to achieve the good end product that most joiners end up with we used to make jigs and patterns to make repetitions easier.This is just best practice, not necessarily the right practice.
        I support Andy's view about learning the rules before you can break them, if you do not understand the rules then the reasons for having a lesser quality cut will not be evident but if you have never had a good quality cut you will not understand what all the fuss is about, it is only by using correct tool application that will allow you to explore the myriad of uses and different applications that lumped together make up what is termed technique.
       One of the problems facing a production turner like myself is the inability to come up with original designs, I pride my self on being able to make anything I am asked to make, but it is not my design.
So to all intents and purposes I have a tool missing from my armoury, that of vision or design or whatever you wish to call it and no amount of good tool technique will enable me to create something new and different. But good tool technique will allow me to choose the quality of the end product more accurately than poor tool use will.
Imagine that all the turners in the world have different ideas about the craft and they all spend their time walking around a pyramid that has 4 sides so there is a chance they will never meet. Now imagine that all those turners decide to climb the pyramid and so with a bit of common thought they all end up on top and eventually all will meet and that will only be achieved in real life if we all want to improve.
Regards
John BHT

John

The fact that you production turn other people's design does not mean your work should be less regarded. This is what the job of a production turner is, it is a different animal. What counts is the quality.

You posted as I posted so some points will have crossed. This is why in my my comments I grouped in two camps, both have different requirements and I hold design in as much regard in production turning as other work.

What I am trying to get across is, if poor quality work is produced be it a spindle or hollow form, it will not be held in high regard.

The beautiful work of Burt Marsh and his ogee bowl is fine work indeed, he paid attention to refining the perfect ogee line.

Anyway I have added enough. Time for someone else to come in with their thoughts.