Author Topic: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....  (Read 8897 times)

arcos

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Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« on: February 13, 2013, 02:49:43 PM »
So, I have come across some oak. Unfortunately its small branches that have broken in recent high winds.

Hmmm I can feel pendants coming on...

Anyway, as its still green the wood is actually pretty light and not that interesting.

So, I have turned 3 or 4 small drop pendants and one of them is getting the vinegar and wire wool treatment. I have never done this before and have a few questions.

I am using wine vinegar and a chunk of wire wool in the bottom of a small jar.

There is obviously a chemical reaction taking place as there are quite a few bubbles coming from the steel wool... It is also mildy smelly! Hydrochloric acid?

So, do I paint the resulting liquid on or simply drop the piece in for a while and then, I am guessing, it needs to come out and react with the air?

Any tips please?

Paul Disdle

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 03:21:40 PM »
The bubbles are quiet possibly hydrogen as thats a by product of the chemical reaction.

Here is a post from the aaw (http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/archive/index.php?t-4403.html) about it:

"You’re joking…Steel wool and Vinegar?

If ever there was certain evidence that woodturning is an ancient art, the use of this witches’ brew for staining oak black must be it.

It works – there’s no denying that, but there is a quicker, simpler and cleaner method of achieving exactly the same result, so why not give it a try? But first…a chemistry lesson.

Everyone knows that vinegar is a very dilute solution of acetic acid (which is itself a very weak acid) and that steel is mostly iron. When steel wool is placed in vinegar a chemical reaction takes place:

Iron + acetic acid → iron acetate + hydrogen gas

It is the iron acetate that is wanted. This is what turns the oak black but, because the vinegar actually contains very little acetic acid, the reaction is slow and we get very little of the iron acetate. Instead, other (unwanted) reactions take place. In particular, most of the iron simply rusts, making the whole mixture into a filthy black mess which contains hardly any of the iron acetate we set out to obtain. Incidentally, the hydrogen gas is also produced in tiny amounts and probably goes unnoticed although you might see a few tiny bubbles on the steel wool in the first half-hour or so.

Bear with me, please, while I take the lesson a shade further. When metals (e.g. iron) react with acids (e.g. vinegar) the atoms change slightly and become a different particle called an ion. Iron acetate consists of two ions, as its name implies. These are iron ions (from the iron atoms in the steel wool) and acetate ions from the acetic acid in the vinegar.

End of chemistry, the rest is common sense (or ‘logic’ as we scientists like to call it). We know that vinegar alone does not stain oak black. Therefore it is not the acetate ions which do the staining. Therefore it must be the iron ions. Therefore anything which contains iron ions would be able to stain oak black. So why mess about with steel wool and vinegar for heaven’s sake?

There is a simple, clean, cheap and virtually harmless iron compound available. It is correctly called Iron(II) sulphate but is commonly known as ‘ferrous sulphate’. It is usually found in the form of pale green crystals which look very much like green sugar. Ferrous sulphate is the active ingredient in some moss killers and in iron tablets (for anaemia). It's available in the UK at places that sell garden chemicals - I guess the USA has similar stores. It isn't very expensive here.

Dissolving a teaspoonful or two of ferrous sulphate in a cupful of warm water will give a pale greenish yellow solution which will turn oak black if you paint it on, or make you very very constipated indeed if you drank it, or kill the moss on your lawn if you spray it on. I said it was virtually harmless and it is – but you wouldn’t want to drink it any more than you’d drink the steel wool/vinegar mixture. Normal care should be taken and is all that is required.

Sand your work to its final finish before applying the solution. Be warned that the effect is not instantaneous. You paint it on and nothing happens…the black colour gradually develops over the next couple of hours. It’s probably best left overnight. The water will raise the grain so sand down gently – the beauty is not much more than skin deep. You can repeat the application but the left-over solution will gradually ‘go off’ after a few days. Best use what’s left to kill moss on lawns/paths, and make it up fresh as required.

By the way, as if you care, I’m pretty sure the blackening is caused by another chemical reaction between the iron ions and the tannic acid in the timber (not just oak). I got a strong black colour when I added a few crystals to some cold tea. I’m guessing that ferrous tannate is an insoluble black substance. Just don’t drink the tea afterwards!

Bob"

Hope that helps

Paul

ru55ell1

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 03:39:36 PM »
Good response  ;D

woody

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 03:40:24 PM »
All I ever did was triple 0 wire wool keep dipping it in some white vinegar and rub it on the Oak and it will start turning black leave till dry sand lightly  and finish on the rare occasion it may need two applications

Offline Eric Harvey

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 04:12:55 PM »
nice chemistry lesson Paul,if you don`t put to much iron in your tea it`ll be ok,will stop you being aneamic haha,regards,

Eric.
welcome to my woodturning world

arcos

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 05:01:56 PM »
Aha, that's great thanks!

So just 'paint' the mix on?

Well, I have done both paint it on AND submerse the piece into the mix.

It is  pretty 'funky' purple at the moment.

I guess I will just have to wait and see what it's like in a few hors or in the morning!

Offline Bryan Milham

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 07:56:23 PM »
Paul, You've got to have a chemistry background to come up with such a brilliant description. That is probably one of the best explanations of how it works and why I've ever read.

Arcos,

If you wire brush (small sets available from €1 shops) the finished piece, you can then fill the eroded grain with something. Normally we'd use something like Liming Wax but I've seen Plaster of Paris used, just about any thick white or coloured paste substance can be used.

bodrighywood has shown the goblet with a gilt finish - there is another idea.

Just remember to use it as jewellery it will need something over it to stop whatever you apply rubbing off onto the wearer.
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Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 08:02:00 PM »
This is a close up of some oak candlesticks that were wire brushed to drag the grain out, ebonised with wire wool in vinegar that I brushed on and then lime waxed as mentioned. Main problem using the vinegar method id that the smell takes quite a while to disappear so isn't suitable fr anything you are likely to sell or give away soon after finishing.

Pete
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 08:03:52 PM by bodrighywood »
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thebowlerhattedturner

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 08:25:51 PM »
Paul,
       I thoroughly enjoyed the chemistry lesson,if that doesn't sum up the "mystery" of the craft I don't know what will. The reason wire wool and vinegar is used by woodturners is very simple,it's free! We all have wire wool in the workshop and pinch some vinegar from the kitchen and you can make free stain. You could use lemon juice instead but that is a more expensive option but smells nicer.
Arcos,
         something else you could try is fuming your Oak. Best done outdoors taking safety into consideration,put a small amount of household ammonia onto a saucer inside a sealed plastic bag along with your turned object. It will emerge a glorious brown colour.
Van Dyke crystals dissolved in hot water are also very good.
My favourite for really black is india ink. Louis Vuitton type colours can be added with a felt tip pen and shavings from some of the exotic timbers can be boiled up and applied with some striking results. Food dyes are quite useful as are some herbs.
Regards
John BHT

woody

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 09:59:06 PM »
This one was done with one application the same way I described earlier and it is jet black I sometimes bub gold guiding cream into the grain after
 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 10:00:40 PM by woody »

Paul Disdle

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 10:33:00 PM »
Just to clarify while I do have a science background  this was a quote from a member of the aaw forum.  The link to the whole thread is on my post too and has some more interesting discussion.

Credit should go to Bob the original poster I just found it

Paul

BarryMobbs

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2013, 01:28:52 PM »
Hello,
 I use ordinary vinegar and wire wool and I leave it to soak for weeks before I use it.
 I then just brush it on and the result is almost instantaneous varying from black to very dark blue. There is a chemical reaction with varying amounts of tannin in the wood so it is not always the same.   Barry

   

Paul Disdle

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 01:38:52 PM »
If you test on a scrap of wood and the colour is not what is expected, you can feed the wood with strong tea to boost its tannin content.

Paul

arcos

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 10:38:49 PM »
Lemon Juice?

This is also 'free' to me as I have a glorious lemon tree giving fruit just about now!  ;)

Will this have the same effect as vinagre?

Perhaps the chemist can answer that one?  ;)

Also, as the wood is fresh cut, 'green', does this have an effect on the process?

Sorry, I was NEVER good at chemistry! Biology was my thing  ;D

Offline Bryan Milham

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Re: Oak, Vinegar and Wire Wool....
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2013, 07:46:27 AM »
Arcos,

You'll sometimes here us talk about using Lemon Oil as a finish. For information this is made from Lemon Grass, not Lemons or Lemon Trees. There is a cleaning fluid made from Lemon and Orange rinds but I've never thought tom use it on wood!

Back to your question; Lemons contain Citric Acid so the ion exchange so well described by paul would be different to that from Acetic Acid. But, as it's the Iron that causes the colour change so I'm (guessing) there may still be an effect.

Time for an experiment methinks, and post the result, who knows, you might even start a whole new wood chemistry colouring system.
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