Plagiarism

[Bill21]

How do folks on here feel about this? I ask because there was a guy on Facebook The other day throwing his toys out of the pram because someone produced something similar to one of his works. I must admit I haven’t seen either piece so I don’t know how similar they are. It appears the offended person posts lots of pictures of his work on FB and I think he does YT demos as well.

Hard to tell these days but I think many if not most of the professional turners that do (did) demos at our club would be quite offended if people didn’t try their own version. What’s the point otherwise?

[bodrighywood]

If you do a demo then it is pretty much expected that people will emulate the work. That is part of the point of them, to share ideas. Where it is a blatant copy of something I make then personally I would like people to at least give credit where due. E.G if you make a viking bowl then refer to Nick Agar. Bottom line it can be argued that nothing is actually new but there are areas that are known as a certain persons work. I used to specialise in goblets and had several styles that I developed myself e.g. medieval goblets, tipsy goblets. I have since seen others making them, sometimes no reference to the source of the idea and yes it can rankle a bit. I now rarely make them. It can be a minefield legally as well as some turners have registered design rights which can be pursued in court if copied without permission and those laws vary from country to country. Bottom line if you want to copy someones work then ideally at least give credit e.g. 'Inspired by work of ......'

Pete

[Bryan Milham]

As Pete says, if you demo it, you are inviting people to cy it or make their version of it.
Likewise anything described in a printed magazine is there as a project for you to attempt.

And again as Pete says, give credit to the original designer  where there is a strong case for your work being a copy. If you've used it as a stepping off point and developed it further that may be a different thing altogether.

[Twisted Trees]

It can be difficult to credit a design to any particular turner, I frequently do sketches when away from the lathe and the internet often from shapes I observe in nature as I am mostly into organic style work, get home make them let someone see them and they say "Oh yes that is like xyz's work on FaceTube" now I can't honestly say I never saw it, and had an image in my memory, nor can I say that following the flow of the grain would lead many to the same basic curve (lets face it we only have curves and not curves to work with!)

Yes when directly influenced you can say influenced by xyz, but if it is a year or two later and the influence is forgotten but the shape remembered that is less easy.

Personally I shamelessly plagiarise most frequently from seeing a finished shape, I feel the need to make it to see how the cuts get put together to end up there, those will be credited,  I also inadvertently plagiarise as I look at a lot of peoples work on the internet, in galleries, shows etc. and some time later I will make something that has a design from my memory but it will be driven by the shape and grain pattern of the wood flowing into the memory of a shape, then I couldn't credit anyone as I wouldn't know where the memory came from.

Multi-part pieces or mechanically functioning pieces may be different.

[Mark Hancock]

As stated above give credit where it's due.

The issue of plagiarism is more of a concern to professional turners when the copier starts selling the work usually at a much reduced price. Without resorting to legal channels such as copyright etc there is very little that can be done. At the end of the day it comes down to an individual's morals and what they deem to be the right thing to do.

[Paul Hannaby]

There are those out there who copy others work, perhaps through ignorance or lack of their own creativity or just as a learning exercise. As Mark says, it becomes a problem when the copies impact on the sales of the originator of that "product".

My understanding is that you can copyright a design (and you don't have to register it to do so, you just need to prove you did it first if there is a dispute!) but you can't copyright a technique so if someone uses your new technique to make something else, they aren't falling foul of copyright.

Also worth bearing in mind is that in some instances, two different people can arrive at two similar looking objects by using substantially different techniques and sometimes with no knowledge of the other.

It has also been said that there is very little which is truly new, much has been done somewhere before by someone. How many times in recent years have you seen another social media sensation saying they have "invented" a colouring process which has already been around for decades. Some of these people who claim to be originators of something new aren't always correct.

[Bill21]

With so many replies in such a short time shows this is a hot topic so it’s good to talk about it.

Given the hundreds or even possibly thousands of years that wood lathes have been in use I find it extremely unlikely that anyone in recent years has come up with a new shape of anything, be it a Bowl, a Platter or a Goblet. So when it comes to shape at least I don’t think any Turner need feel obliged to credit anyone.

Other techniques would need to be broken down to make a judgment though I suppose.

[michaelb]

Think of all the copies of paintings by famous artists have been made is it Plagiarism.. it's admiration of the work, the same goes for turning, Viking bowl by Nick Agar or Glen Lucas the hint is in the name Viking over 1000 years ago, . If someone believes someone has copied they should be thankful that they are being admired, Mona Lisa worth millions my effort 2/6p  .  (you are all old enough to know half a crown)
   

[bodrighywood]

Last night we noticed that another professional turner had posted a piece on which there was a design that could have almost  been transferred from Mo's original one. Whilst it is feasible that two people came up with exactly the same style and design it is not likely especially as it happenned within a couple of months of Mo's original post. In light of this every photo we now post will state on it that design and copyright belongs to Bodrighy Wood. Whilst the copyright is difficult to enforce the design right aspect is actually fairly simple and as we have had experience with it in the furniture industry over the years we are aware of what it entails. Sad, as all that we would ask for is acknowlegment of the source of inspiration. I have no intention of mentioning names etc so don't ask. If I seem a tad annoyed maybe it's because I would expect other professionals to have some moral and ethical courtesy in these matters as both they and we are trying to earn a living. This is, IMHO, plagiarism.
In answer to Michael. the plagiarism aspect applies when someone (e.g. Nicks viking bowls) develops a design that is original. The fact that he calls it a viking bowl is irrelevant. It was his design, developed using various techniques etc researched and perfected by him and therefore he does legally have design rights to it.

Pete

[RichardS]

According to the dictionary Plagiarism refers to the copying of the written word and has no relevance to the copying of works of Art.

[bodrighywood]

OK Richard, techincally you are correct but I think everyone knows what we mean. Do we really want to get into all the specific definitions of things? Try googling 'artistic plagiarism' by the way, it is a generally accepted term.  Copying without acknowlegdment or permission. It can't be defined as forgery unless you are passing it off as an original work. The simple fact is if you spend time trying to create something that is different in order to sell then someone copies it without permission or acknowledgement of your original work then that very frustrating, immoral and potentially illegal.


Pete

[Twisted Trees]

Problem is Pete, I hold the copyright and trademark on a couple of logo's that have nothing to do with wood or turning! it was copied in Spain but with a word changed, I challenged it but was informed by the Spanish trademark body that because the application said Spain and not Association then it was substantially different, and they granted the trademark. I sort of won that one by trademarking one that said Espania  instead of Spain and used their documents against them, but it cost money just to be annoying! the same has been used against a couple of traders selling goods with the logo on it and I got them to agree to stop selling, but only because it wasn't worth the hassle to them if I had to back it up with court action, I couldn't afford to do that.

Sign in a sandwich shop I used to frequent when I worked in London summed it up, "There is nothing a man can make that can't be made a little bit cheaper, and a little bit worse"

I think Mo's art combined with your turning may be more defendable as a design than any round and brown based shape. but as you specialise in unique works of art, it would never be cost effective to fight for it. The only real advantage you have is to get it in front of the buyer with your name/s on it first.

[bodrighywood]

Pretty much agree Pete. Design rights are a bit different and (hopefully) having the comment on our images now will make people stop and think. You will never stop everyone copying and I am not sure I want to but it would be nice if people stopped and acknowledged the source of their inspiration.  Friends of ours in the furniture industry took a german company to court for breaking design rights and won. Cost a fortune initially but they got that all back in costs plus the ground breaking rling regarding design rights. Been taken up now by ACID. Most turners coudn't afford to do it but nice to know that at least the ethical and legal premise ois on our side.

Pete

[turningGreen]

As a newbie if I copy someones work it's because I admire it and try to emulate it and mostly fail, but I would never sell if it was good enough without mentioning the originator.

[Wooddust]

Very difficult one this, and I suppose ultimately it would be for a court to decide what is plagiarism/ breaking copyright. The problem with that, is it costs a lot of money.

added to that the "limit" of what we turn, it may be very difficult to establish in the first place.

A couple of examples of what I mean about "limit":  if turning a 7mm pen there is a limit to the number of shapes that you could use. The Potpourri lid I use in my avatar limits the opening due to it's size.