Craft Fairs

[bodrighywood]

interesting and varied comments.
What about people who just want to cover the cost of their hobby?
We don't all want to make a living at it we just like doing it.
I have started selling a few pieces and I will fall into the 'far too cheap' bracket but I don't care. I am just happy when someone appreciates an object I have made. I do not factor in time, electricity, travel or consumables these are all just part of the making process. For me if I cover the cost of the wood and enough to buy another bit then I am happy the price of a bacon sandwich is a bonus!
Sorry if that upsets the professional turners but it is my Hobby not my job.

Sadly though you may noot care, what you are unintentionally doing is undermining those who DO need to make a living and also depreciating the percieved value of the art and craft. Whether you want to make a living or not you and anyone else who sells their work is an ambassador for the craft and as such has a responsibility to maintain a standard not just in the work but in the selling. It isn't just a case of 'upsetting professional turners' but is an irresponsible attitude to the craft and I am sorry but to say you don't care is both irresponsible and demeaning both to the craft and to youirself as a woodturner.

pete

[Wooddust]

Whilst there is always the argument between those that make a living from anything and those that do it as a hobby. It not an irresponsible attitude it is just how it is. My work doesn't devalue a professionals work. (if it does then maybe the professional needs to look at what they are doing)  People always have the choice. Any piece is worth what people are prepared to pay. Now if that value increase because of a name then so be it. Not everybody can afford a wooden bowl for £100. Some people actually like to buy things from people they know and will perhaps accept a lower quality (with a price to match) because of that.

[fuzzyturns]

I am afraid I am with Pete on this one. There is generally a balance between demand and supply at a certain price level. If the market gets eroded by hobby turners swamping the market with their pieces at rock bottom prices, that balance gets destroyed, and now the (generally unknowing and uncaring) buyers become used to buying at the new, lower price level. Since that level is unsustainable for a professional turner, he goes out of business (which, by the way, also means that most demonstrators and tutors leave the business). In essence you are starting a price war which you (and nobody else) will win, since there is no means of reducing production cost by producing larger quantities. In other words, in my view you are shooting Pete AND yourself in the foot, big time.

[John Plater]

I am not afraid to say that I am with Pete, Fuzzyturns and lots of other woodturners I speak to on this one.
ATB John

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I have to say that if I saw a suspect woodturner just covering costs I would wonder if thy were declaring the tax that should be paid on each sale. If I ever found out that tax was not being paid I would let the tax man know, I don't mind you selling you stuff but let's make it from a level playing field.

[Wooddust]

I am not afraid to say that I am with Pete, Fuzzyturns and lots of other woodturners I speak to on this one.
ATB John

So what is the answer? The professionals dictate the price? Never going to happen Although a bit of guidance wouldn't go amiss.
"Hobbyist put up their prices? To what? I don't need to make a profit if I cover my costs then I am happy and this is the crux of the matter. So far this year I have done one craft fair in my village and have sold £18 worth of turning then there was the £10 for my table so £8 that just about covered my material costs I suspect that most of the other fairs I intend to do will be the same. Conversely if I don't sell some of my pieces what do I do with them? There are only so many bits you can give to friends and family. If that model is going to "hit" professionals who sell then maybe they need to look at their model.

Where is the tax that needs to be paid on selling an item? If I am covering my costs then I have no tax liability. Hence another reason for a "hobbyist" not to charge more. I keep a record of all that I have brought and all that I have sold and so far this year for all the woodworking stuff I have done (not just woodturning) I am  -£300. Where is my tax liability on that. Those figures don't take into account my travelling to pick up wood, the cost of heating and lighting, cleaning etc.

[fuzzyturns]

I think as an absolute minimum starting point you should charge your time at the national minimum wage, i.e. £7.83 per hour. Add your costs on top, and then you have a level playing field. I am pretty sure that most professionals would charge more for their time, but then they are probably also faster.

[Derek]

This divide is not something new and has been going on for quite a while but I still see professionals in business (And I hope they stay that way). I don't think that anything that is said here will change that.

I am a hobby turner but also make wooden models for my own pleasure as if I stuck to turning alone I would end up with so much stuff that I would not know what to do with it, I do the odd fair but I believe my prices are not just enough to cover costs but are quite high (not as high as professional turners).

 I still manage to sell these pieces so it does prove that you do not need to be that low in pricing as to only cover costs. This also allows me to continue turning and also buy me any new machines and other items that I need which would not be possible if I just covered costs.

Hopefully how I price my work does not devalue the work of the professionals who do some great work. Some (not all professionals) help their business thrive by doing production turning which a hobbyist would not even entertain.       

[Wooddust]

I think as an absolute minimum starting point you should charge your time at the national minimum wage, i.e. £7.83 per hour. Add your costs on top, and then you have a level playing field. I am pretty sure that most professionals would charge more for their time, but then they are probably also faster.

So £18 pound for a small tealight holder I don't think so. I doubt that many "professional" turners or many other self employed person use the national minimum wage as a "charging point"

I am not going to change what I do in part because if I start to make a "profit" then HMRC will want to look at me. Doesn't mean I devalue what professionals do, as I do not see myself creating the same stuff.

[bodrighywood]

If you are selling your work you should be registered as at least a sole trader. If not you are liable to a massive fine if they catch you and they do have inspectors going around shows and sales including the church hall type. You should also have PPI hope you do. A t light holder by the way should be about £10 including the cost of the insert unless it is something special. And yes people do pay that and more for them.

Pete

[Wood spinner]

I had a turning friend who enjoyed making pens , He turned them out by the dozens , every time I visited he would show me what he had made , I asked " What do you do with them " ?

I sell them to a bookmaker who then sells them to his customers .

Must be lucrative for you I say , No its not , All I charge is the price of the pen kit , They cost me money but I enjoy making them was the reply , DOH ! 

[bodrighywood]

I am perhaps unusual in that my main income is from sales at shows. I have given up doing several shows purely becaus they became innundated with hobby crafters (not just turners) selling their work at prices that screamed 'cheap' and that is how the public see it. Whether you realise it or not, Joe Public assumes that the price portrays the amount of work, thought, skill as well as material goes into making something. Just because someone is a hobby turner doesn't mean that they have any less skill etc invested in a piece but if you just charge the cost of materials that is how people will perceive it. It isn't just a case of a level playing field as John puts it though that is part of it. Selling your work at a minimal cost is undermining the way people see crafts such as woodturning and that is what really gets to me personally. You and I and every other crafter selling their work have a responsibility to portray the craft as best you can and that involves putting a good value on your work. How can we do that when the view people get is that it is just something knocked up in the shed one afternoon and that is what people see and think. I focus on 'Makers only' fairs and work can range from £3 to £3000, people expect top quality, skilled people and good value and that should be the ethos for every crafter hobby or professional. No doubt I will never convince others of this but as long as there are people who can say 'I don't care' I am not likely to give up.

pete

[Wooddust]

If you are selling your work you should be registered as at least a sole trader. If not you are liable to a massive fine if they catch you and they do have inspectors going around shows and sales including the church hall type. You should also have PPI hope you do. A t light holder by the way should be about £10 including the cost of the insert unless it is something special. And yes people do pay that and more for them.

Pete

Please show me where it says anybody who sells anything has to be a sole trader? As I have already said I don't make a profit so where is my tax liability. PLI is not always required (and is not a legal requirement in any case) depends on what and where you are selling.

Please when replying quote actual law not just what you think is right.

[bodrighywood]

If you are selling your work you should be registered as at least a sole trader. If not you are liable to a massive fine if they catch you and they do have inspectors going around shows and sales including the church hall type. You should also have PPI hope you do. A t light holder by the way should be about £10 including the cost of the insert unless it is something special. And yes people do pay that and more for them.

Pete

Please show me where it says anybody who sells anything has to be a sole trader? As I have already said I don't make a profit so where is my tax liability. PLI is not always required (and is not a legal requirement in any case) depends on what and where you are selling.

Please when replying quote actual law not just what you think is right.

You also might need to complete a self assessment tax return if:

    "You have untaxed income. This could be, for example, interest that is not taxed before it is paid to you or rental income. If you are an employee or a pensioner and the income is less than £2,500 a year you might not have to complete a tax return but it is still your responsibility to report such income by contacting HMRC. If you receive other untaxed income and the tax due on it cannot be collected via your PAYE coding notice you will need to complete a tax return;"
Taken from HMRC site.

 

[fuzzyturns]

So, to be clear: you DON'T HAVE to register as a sole trader, but you DO HAVE to declare any income to the taxman. They will then decide whether or not to pursue you for some tax. Given the nature of these affairs, it is then generally easier to register as a sole trader, and do some shoebox accounting, which should make it very quick to see for the taxman that they are flogging a dead horse.

I think this really only becomes an issue of you do this on a regular basis. Otherwise everybody selling anything on ebay would have to register, too, and that's not happening, is it?

To be honest, I am not too bothered with that side of this debate. And even though Pete seems to think this is serious, I think you'd be able to demonstrated quite easily that they are wasting their time. What I am more bothered about is the fact that you do not value your own time and effort. And your statement about having to charge £18 for a tealight holder does intrinsically validate my comment about professionals being faster.