Author Topic: Craft Fairs  (Read 25159 times)

Offline John Plater

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #90 on: October 25, 2018, 11:19:35 AM »
Quote from crazylegs :- The value should be in the quality.
I couldn't agree more though how one goes on to define quality is another story. I don't speak as a professional turner or as a hobby turner but somewhere in the grey area between the two. The professional needs to maximise his or her output of saleable items or commissioned pieces over a given span of time. The hobby turner might be able to match the quality of the professional by giving the piece/s much more time. I really do believe that to then offer that piece at a price to cover the cost of the blanks is devaluing the time and or expertise which went into making it either as a hobbyist or professional. In a similar vein I notice in club competitions for instance, that some woodturners are able to give endless hours to the production of a piece. If I am making stock for the next craft show or working on a commission I don't stand a chance of getting a competition piece ready ! I have to wait until the theme or topic matches work I have in hand !
ATB John
If I had a better lathe, I would be able to show my ineptitude more effectively.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #91 on: October 25, 2018, 11:46:30 AM »
I have always said that some of the best turners in the country are likely to be hobby turners. They don't have the pressure or time comstraints that pros have. Having said that if the work is of poor quality should it be for sale anyway? Whilst the time taken by a hobby turner may appear to boost price of based on an hourly rate what price is put on years of experience, skill etc that most pros have? When I do a show I have a card on display that says the following.

"When buying hand made
you are buying more than just an object.
You are buying hundreds of hours of
practice, mistakes, experimentation.
You are buying days, weeks, months
of fustration and moments of joy
You aren't just buying a 'thing' but a part
of the soul, heart, a moment of someones life
Most important you buy the artist time
to do something they love, making personal,
unique objects for others
Thank you for buying handmade.

Get a lot of people reading it and agreeing, crafters and otherwise. . Does this only apply to professionals?

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline fuzzyturns

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #92 on: October 25, 2018, 12:53:35 PM »
No, this applies universally, and I very much subscribe to that myself. And to prove that point, I have spent considerable amounts of money on original artwork from otherwise unknown artists, simply because I love their work.
Back to the original argument of charging at least the minimum national wage per hour: This was simply meant as a starting point. I personally aim at around £25/hour (for retail pricing), with artistic value added on top. I know some production turners who will charge around £35-40 per hour, and that about matches out in the end, because they are about 50% faster than I am (in order to achieve the same quality). However, if you go to a point where you don't charge at all, then as the hobbyist doing that you can spend an infinite amount of time on the quality and still beat hell out of any competition. You are basically eliminating competition, and that's where things get problematic.
I don't think any professional has a problem with competition, they will find their niche and get good at it, and then produce a level of quality that commands a certain price, and if others want to get in they'll soon find out that in order to get the same quality they have to spend the same or more time, and things sort of level out. However, by not charging for your time, the whole thing goes completely off the rails, and essentially the only hope for us (charging turners) is that eventually you run out of time, since that is the only limiting factor for you.

Offline Redtails4

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #93 on: October 25, 2018, 12:58:37 PM »
Hi
It's no though is it ? Why do the majority go to tesco's two reasons 1 we don't have a artisan baker by where we live 2 we all like a bargain?
When people stroll round these craft fairs they don't give a toss if the person who made  is
A professional or a hobby Turner  it has to catch there eye and be cheap.we live in a throwaway society, the majority don't give a dam about the asthetics of the piece in.
All  they do care about the price of the piece.
Look at the artists of say the impressionts school look at what people paid for there paintings it was daylight robbery look at the price of some of those paintings today.
There is a element of greed on the shoulders of the purchaser.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #94 on: October 25, 2018, 01:36:12 PM »
Beimng [picky, Tescos isn't any cheper than the other supermarkets with the possible exception of perhaps Waitrose and most people don't go there either, it is omne of the lower fvourite ones apparently. More seriously I am not sure what sort of craft fairs you are talking about as the ones that we do have work for sale that is oftn in three or four figures. I agree that to some extent we are in a throw away society but there is also a good number of people who want and look for quality, artisan and artist created work. We have people buying pieces without looking at the price as well as the ones who look at the price and walk away. It is case of finding your market and focussing on it. If you wnat to sell in the church or village hall type of craft fairs I would agree with you but believe me they are not the ones that attract discerning customers.

pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline fuzzyturns

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #95 on: October 25, 2018, 01:40:48 PM »
Yes, there is an element of that in all of us. And unfortunately Pete and all the other pros cannot wait until roughly 100 years after their demise to get a decent price for their work, they'll have died long before that (sorry, couldn't resist that one).
In fact, those people who really don't give a damn about aesthetics hardly ever end up at a craft show in the first place (they're too busy spending their money at Asda). I have had people on my stall saying "I could get a bowl like that for £20 from <name-the-shop>", to which I generally reply "Well, in that case why don't you?".

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2018, 02:05:55 PM »
I have had people on my stall saying "I could get a bowl like that for £20 from <name-the-shop>",

It has crossed my mind to write a book of daft, peculiar and off the wall comments and questions one hears and gets asked at shows along with suitable and perhaps some not so suitable rrsponses.

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline Redtails4

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #97 on: October 25, 2018, 02:15:31 PM »
Hi
It's there fuzz people do go to fairs walk round craft fairs trying to find tomorrow's art that if they keep in the attic it will be worth a fortune in years to come .
They do this after they have shopped at asda or where ever they do there nose filling bag for that week.

Offline Mike313

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #98 on: October 25, 2018, 05:01:19 PM »
My father, Lord rest his soul, had a maxim he applied to what he did in life. It was very simple - 'do nothing that you know will harm others'. He was a lovely man.
If I, as a hobbyist, make saleable goods and sell them without charging for my time, and am just recouping the cost of the material then I am potentially harming someone who earns a living doing the same thing.
Let me use the following hypothetical example: Let's say a hobbyist and a professional each buy a bowl blank for £20. Perhaps the hobbyist (as someone already stated), can afford to spend 6 hours perfecting a bowl that a professional might complete 2 hours.  After which time let us say - perhaps - we have two bowls of equal 'quality'. Then if I, as the hobbyist, charge my time at, say, £10 an hour I should be charging £20 blank + £60 time = £80 for the bowl. This is fair, because it allows the professional to value his/her time at £30 per hour and to still price the work at £80. But to sell the resulting bowl at £20 just to recover the cost of the blank is really undermining the work of the professional who is trying to make a living. To which I would say 'do nothing that you know would harm others'. Just my two-cents-worth. I shall now put on my tin helmet and 'get me coat' . . . . . :)

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #99 on: October 25, 2018, 05:52:18 PM »
Mike you hit the nail on the head. Many years ago when I owned a joinery company I put in a quote for a frame for a local customer. I knew someone who had done work for him and he told me of forthcoming projects that I might get if my quote was a bit keen (read cheap) I put in a very keen quote but did not get the job, neither did any of my competitors. Turns out a college lecturer, who taught wood work, got the job and the rest of us were nowhere near his price. I could not work out how I could cut my price to the level of his until it was pointed out to me, he stole the wood from the college. Therefore the level playing field was tilted in his favour. There was no way any of us could compete and would never have been able to. We are up against something similar here (I know you are not stealing the wood).
Fuzzy if someone came to my stall and said they could buy a bowl like that I would correct them and point out that I only sell my bowls to discerning customers and not riffraff and so they could never buy a bowl like that made by me.
The question of the hobby turner will never be solved, if I was a hobby turner ,and I was once, I would look up and say it is my wood and my time and I will sell it for what I want! And the people that do say that are probably the ones that moan about how much it costs to hire a professional demonstrator.
My father always said never show them how to do it, make a mystery  out of it, to some extent I do this, yes I teach and demonstrate but some of the stuff I do or how I do it will never be revealed.

Offline Redtails4

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #100 on: October 25, 2018, 07:46:43 PM »
Hi
John i knew there was something well dodgy about about a demonstration you did for a wood turning club i am in
No in all seriousness you are bang on .  I have heard  this argument in all trades and walks of  life.

Offline seventhdevil

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #101 on: October 25, 2018, 08:58:39 PM »
this thread is mainly why i don't want to do loads of craft fairs to make a living at turning.

i do the one a year to get me out of the shop and i know that even though it's £40 and a 6-7 hour day i take home 2-3 hundred by the end of it.

was i lucky to find a niche market in turning with the skittles i make? possibly but i do know that if i was still making a living selling bowls then i would not be spending big money on blanks (unless it was a commission) but buying the way i do now on ebay.

i like to find old turners on ebay who are giving up or a relative is clearing out granddads shed and they had ex amount of blanks in there native and exotic so i buy in bulk.

when you work out that it's only a couple of quid per blank it makes it alot easier to make a profit given the time you sometimes put into a bowl or a nest of them.

i also like to get free (or as near to as i can get) timber from tree surgeons and process it myself. yes it may take a year or so to dry once roughed out but when you get a production line of blanks going you have dry ones to turn whilst others are wet.

the fact that i became a skittles manufacturer means i can keep a close eye on my money as i know how long it takes me to make a set and i know just how much the wood cost me in the first place.

for a set of 10"x5" pins there is about £25 worth of beech (1 1/2ft3 of timber) and it takes me 3-4 hours to complete a set. i charge £25 per hour for commission work so if it took the 4 hours to make and you add the timber it's only £125 max. i sell them for £160 per set at that size. sounds like i only get £35 out of it but when you realise that i make many sets at the same time i can easily get a good profit from only a few days work. sadly making bowls is what i love but selling them at fairs was not a route that would make anywhere near what i can with skittles and that is taking into account undercutters that have inferior goods.

in the end quality counts no matter if it's a hobby turner or not. if i ever come across a turner who happens to have tons of skittle timber knocking about and loads of spare time and can do a set as good or better quality than mine then i too would be stuffed.

in my opinion it is not the hobby turner charging what they like that is the problem, it is the general public not realising the quality product that a seasoned pro can produce.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 09:03:21 PM by seventhdevil »

Offline John Plater

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2018, 09:37:04 AM »
Quotes from seventhdevil :-
sadly making bowls is what i love but selling them at fairs was not a route that would make anywhere near what i can with skittles

in my opinion it is not the hobby turner charging what they like that is the problem, it is the general public not realising the quality product that a seasoned pro can produce.

1. I have a stupid business model, make what I enjoy and hope to sell it rather than to look at what sells and then make that. Horses for courses I guess.

2. I have heard this expressed a number of times by woodturners and many other crafts people from other disciplines. There are so many openings for both makers and buyers of work in competition with one another as well as in competition with the high street. That is where showing with a guild or organiser with a good reputation for high end quality helps as most visitors appreciate what they are looking at. The problem is to persuade them to own it rather than just appreciate what they are looking at !

ATB John
If I had a better lathe, I would be able to show my ineptitude more effectively.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2018, 10:22:27 AM »
Have to say Steve that whether the public apreciates the quality etc depends to some extent on where you afre selling. If it is a church / village hall then you may well be right but if you focus on the maker only, higher end shows with reputation and experience it is different. Still won't guarantee sales but goes a log way towards it.

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline Derek

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2018, 11:21:52 AM »
I will give an example of a show I attended there was another turner there and his comment to me was that my work was too expensive his tables were jammed packed compared to mine and had 4 time the amount on show mine I spread out a little with room between each item his looked like one big sea of brown, yet I sold more than him.
In this case selling cheap did not effect my sales hardly at all even to the point of many saying that mine was laid out better and the turning looked good quality compared to his. This makes me feel better as I was a little unsure with having someone selling turned work and cheaper at the same venue.