Author Topic: Craft Fairs  (Read 25131 times)

Offline Wooddust

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #75 on: October 23, 2018, 12:14:27 PM »
If you are selling your work you should be registered as at least a sole trader. If not you are liable to a massive fine if they catch you and they do have inspectors going around shows and sales including the church hall type. You should also have PPI hope you do. A t light holder by the way should be about £10 including the cost of the insert unless it is something special. And yes people do pay that and more for them.

Pete

Please show me where it says anybody who sells anything has to be a sole trader? As I have already said I don't make a profit so where is my tax liability. PLI is not always required (and is not a legal requirement in any case) depends on what and where you are selling.

Please when replying quote actual law not just what you think is right.

You also might need to complete a self assessment tax return if:

    "You have untaxed income. This could be, for example, interest that is not taxed before it is paid to you or rental income. If you are an employee or a pensioner and the income is less than £2,500 a year you might not have to complete a tax return but it is still your responsibility to report such income by contacting HMRC. If you receive other untaxed income and the tax due on it cannot be collected via your PAYE coding notice you will need to complete a tax return;"
Taken from HMRC site.

And if you actually read it in total : trading - the first £1,000 of income from trading or selling a skill is tax-free, for example selling products you have made. So as I have already explained there is no income.

You still haven't answered the question about sole trader though.

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #76 on: October 23, 2018, 12:26:39 PM »
Pedantic points aside I am dismayed that some would undervalue their own work. The time and effort that has gone into the making should surely be worth more than just the cost of the materials? I realise there is a value in the enjoyment of a hobby and I daresay that not all professional turners make the sort of money they should be making. But essentially what is being said is once a hobbyist has turned a piece of wood it has been devalued, and that can't be right either? Can it be compared to giving away produce from your garden?

Offline Wood spinner

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #77 on: October 23, 2018, 12:35:23 PM »
I made this walnut bowl , and IF I decided to sell it I would ask at least £70

The blank cost me £20

It was given to my daughter who asked for a salad bowl  :)

IMG_3699 by , on Flickr

10" x 8" deep

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #78 on: October 23, 2018, 01:28:39 PM »
No point in continuing the discussoion re: tax etc as it is obvious that any advice will be ignored. In closing my advice came from HMRC when I first started out and my advice to anyone who is selling their work to do the same. Income is based on money taken for goods sold plus any other income which, according to the HMRC also includes pensions etc. If you earn less than a taxable income and sell work as well the total income is what the tax man is going to assess. If you don't believe me ask HMRC. If you are actually making a loss, taking into consideration cost of materials, tracvel, show expenses etc, you can even be in line for a rebate. I know a number of crafters to whom this applied.

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline Derek

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #79 on: October 23, 2018, 01:31:12 PM »
I made this walnut bowl , and IF I decided to sell it I would ask at least £70

The blank cost me £20

It was given to my daughter who asked for a salad bowl  :)

IMG_3699 by , on Flickr

10" x 8" deep

I have just come in for a coffee after starting a bowl which is 12" diameter and like you Dennis would expect a good price for mine as well. The wood cost me nothing so according to Wooddust to sell it for cost I would have to give it away at a craft fair.
And also like you this is going to a family member as a present(OK guys call me a cheap skate if you like but my family appreciate the fact that I have taken the trouble to make something for them no matter the cast.

@wooddust  Oh yes time to make it, finish, electricity and any consumables and if I did have to buy the blank as it started at 14" and 3" thick so to sell it at cost £30 to £40 without my time.

Offline Wooddust

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #80 on: October 23, 2018, 02:46:43 PM »
No point in continuing the discussoion re: tax etc as it is obvious that any advice will be ignored. In closing my advice came from HMRC when I first started out and my advice to anyone who is selling their work to do the same. Income is based on money taken for goods sold plus any other income which, according to the HMRC also includes pensions etc. If you earn less than a taxable income and sell work as well the total income is what the tax man is going to assess. If you don't believe me ask HMRC. If you are actually making a loss, taking into consideration cost of materials, tracvel, show expenses etc, you can even be in line for a rebate. I know a number of crafters to whom this applied.

Pete

Pete I am not ignoring advice I know it doesn't apply to me. Having already spoken to HMRC. Hence why I keep records of income/expenditure. I would just like others who say you must do this, and that to actually back the statements up with facts not just what they think is right.

Offline ALAN THOMAS RPT

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #81 on: October 23, 2018, 03:06:48 PM »
I love this argument as there is no real answer apart from getting turners to value their time and skills. I am a pro turner and have to earn a living from my skills, whether that is from Gallery sales, teaching or demonstrating. I see lots of turners at shows and fairs selling their products ( good and bad ) at prices that reflect the cost of materials only and have no idea how difficult they are making life for turners who are trying to make a living. When this question of pricing comes up I often ask the turner what they did ( do ) for a living. Then I ask how they would have felt if someone stood along side of them at their workplace and offered their employer to do their job for the price of a cup of coffee and how long they would have a job. The question of tax is a tricky one but be under no illusions about having public liability and [i]product liability[/i] insurance. Trading Standards take no prisoners. 
just one last cut and it will be perf...oh boll.....!

Offline ChrisF

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #82 on: October 23, 2018, 03:11:44 PM »
Just purely from the tax point of view, HMRC rules have changed many times over the years.  More recently they have become very  much accepting of the fact that many people occasionally sell the products of their hobbies without looking to make a profit.  Such people are not considered to be 'trading' in the context of the relevant leglislation.  They accept that requiring such people to register as sole traders is not sensible.  In particular they say that you will only be considered to be a 'trader' if you:

 - sell regularly to make a profit;
 - make items to sell for profit;
 - sell online, at car boot sales or through classified adverts on a regular basis;
 - earn commission from selling goods for other people;
 - are paid for a service you provide;

They also specifically say:

"You’re probably not trading if you sell some unwanted items occasionally or you don’t plan to make a profit. You can’t use any losses you make as part of a hobby to reduce your tax bill."

In addition, you don't need to register as self-employed if you earn less than £1,000 from self-employment in a tax year.   If you are also 'employed' in your main job, that income is treated separately unless you qualify as a 'trader' (as above), in which case all income is considered a whole when assessing tax liability.

So under current legislation there is definitely no requirement to disclose any information to HMRC if you are selling product but not looking to make a profit. 

https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2018, 04:34:39 PM »
Derek said" this is going to a family member as a present(OK guys call me a cheap skate if you like but my family appreciate the fact that I have taken the trouble to make something for them no matter the cast." Now I have to say that in this country we are slowly beginning to realise that an item of any description that was crafted with love and made specifically for an individual is more valueable that some tat brought of the shelf. I speak to many,many people that rely on craft for a living and they say the same thing, also, in America crafts people are very highly thought of. Just a passing comment.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #84 on: October 23, 2018, 04:38:40 PM »
I'd agree with you John. I look forward to the day when woodturning is also seen as an art form not only a craft. There is definitely an upsurge in interest in crafts of all forms and as it isn't taught in schools very often it's also good to see it being promoted on the media a lot.

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline Derek

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #85 on: October 23, 2018, 04:44:48 PM »
As I mentioned I am only a hobbyist but feel that it should be an art form and not just a craft.

I may not be the most artistic type person but do love to lift my work in some sort of manor even if it is only to please me.


Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #86 on: October 23, 2018, 10:52:05 PM »
Derek I never used to consider myself artistic, still don't to a certain degree but you will surprise yourself oneday when you have an idea of something to make that will make you realise we are all artists but we just need different amounts of time to mature.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #87 on: October 23, 2018, 11:18:33 PM »
People equate 'artistic'with an ability to draw paint or sculpt but art is the ability to create things that stir the imagination. I was told for most of my life that I wasn't artistic because I can't draw a straight line with a ruler but over the last ten years have come to realise, as John said, we all have artistic ability, not everyone has the priviledge of seeing come to fruition. I like Picassos definition, "The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. (don't like his impressionist work though ) Very applicable for woodturners I think LOL

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline Derek

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #88 on: October 23, 2018, 11:45:37 PM »
Derek I never used to consider myself artistic, still don't to a certain degree but you will surprise yourself oneday when you have an idea of something to make that will make you realise we are all artists but we just need different amounts of time to mature.

Well at my age I have no chance now ;D ;D ;D. Working on an artistic piece at the moment well artistic for me ::)

Offline crazylegs

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Re: Craft Fairs
« Reply #89 on: October 25, 2018, 10:13:21 AM »
I do understand the point that professional turners need to make a living. However the argument that you should charge the minimum wage for your time or even more has a flaw. A hobby turner will take longer to make an item than a professional, on the whole. so should they charge more?
What has not been mentioned, and I am sure this will cause a few rumblings, is that a professional should be relying on his/her product being better and more desirable than the hobby turner. The skill and imagination should be obvious. This is what should enable a higher price to be paid.
Would you expect to pay the same for a similar sized loaf from Tesco compared to the artisan baker. No. That is because the artisan bakes a nicer loaf. That is what you pay for.
I am in no way knocking anyone as you are all far better than me and my work next to yours would be embarrassing however that would be reflected in price. The enjoyment of turning is the important thing. I am not devaluing anything. The customer sets the value when they decide yours is worth hundreds and mine is worth pounds. Now if you think my rough offering, oddly shaped and with tool marks should be worth the same ....
The value should be in the quality.
never try to be better than others just better than you were yesterday.