Author Topic: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber  (Read 7779 times)

Offline John Plater

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2018, 11:32:57 AM »
The other day I read an article from a woodturner reporting that after rough-turning a piece of spalted timber (can't remember the species) without protection, a few days later he ended up in hospital and almost died from a fungal infection of his lungs. Took some serious efforts from the docs to keep him alive and get him back onto his feet.

Having said that, I think this was a very exceptional case. It is certainly true that we are surrounded by spores everywhere, and it's therefore safe to assume that our bodies can handle most of them quite easily. I still wouldn't recommend ingesting spalted timber if it can be avoided.

Now, coming back to the original post: using oak for a mortar and pestle. I am not quite sure why Les was so aghast. OK, oak is an open grained wood, which makes it less than ideal for this purpose. And most of it has got loads of tannin, which will impart a nice vinegary taste onto whatever your pounding the hell out of. But other than that, it should be fine.  Wouldn't be my choice, to be sure, but the customer gets what the customer wants.

The amount of fungal spores we come into contact with on a daily basis might be normal. The nose lining and mucus copes with it. Surely, if we turn spalted material without breathing protection the amount is going to be significantly greater ?
If I had a better lathe, I would be able to show my ineptitude more effectively.

Offline Hartwood

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2018, 11:33:57 AM »
The lack of understanding among the woodworking fraternity, about the properties of some timbers never ceases to amaze me. A question was posed this morning, in a social media woodturning group, asking for suggestions of a UK-native timber suitable for making a pestle and mortar (well done to the guy who asked, for having the sense to ask). The first suggestion was olive, so the originator of the post repeated that he wanted a native timber. The next two responses were that he should use oak! One writer stated that oak has tight grain and that one should always check the toxicity of a timber before using it, so I challenged his words, in relation to both the properties of the grain and its toxicity. His response was to stress that all the toxins in oak are found in the leaves and in the bark, then he even went on to quote precise figures for the percentage of toxins and phenolic acid present.

I despair!

Les

Dont Dispair Les, there is no definative answer, just thousands of opinions. I think this is a fascinating subject patricularly the report from America about wood killing bacteria,  searching for somthing in my finishing oils I picked up a tin of Rustin Chopping Board Oil which claims to be "Anti Bacterial" and kills E-coli & MRSA on contact ! Also discusing it with my wife ( because we use wooden boards) she reminded me that Baby high Chairs including the fold down table were Wooden, and we all know most of the food is eaten via the table surface. Also think of all the Wine & Whisky matured in Oak Casks! 

Offline Les Symonds

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2018, 12:34:13 PM »
....think of all the Wine & Whisky matured in Oak Casks!
.....ah, but the heat process of charring the inside of the barrel destroys the tannins and caramelises the natural plant sugars, thereby adding flavour and colour to the alcohol.
Les
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Offline fuzzyturns

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2018, 01:19:08 PM »
That's only true for Whisk(e)y, wine is stored in plain oak barrels, and the tannin is essentially the preservative.

Offline Lazurus

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2018, 02:42:35 PM »
Would the choice or not of finish make oak more food friendly, sealing the deep grain pores? Or is there some simple process to sterilize the articles made? Making "all reasonable" steps to ensure usability of items seems common sense to me.
Living and working on the Norfolk Broads

Offline seventhdevil

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2018, 02:59:58 PM »



lifted from this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tannin on wikipedia.




Presence in water and wood

The leaching of highly water soluble tannins from decaying vegetation and leaves along a stream may produce what is known as a blackwater river. Water flowing out of bogs has a characteristic brown color from dissolved peat tannins. The presence of tannins (or humic acid) in well water can make it smell bad or taste bitter, but this does not make it unsafe to drink.

Tannins leaching from an unprepared driftwood decoration in an aquarium can cause pH lowering and coloring of the water to a tea-like tinge. A way to avoid this is to boil the wood in water several times, discarding the water each time. Using peat as an aquarium substrate can have the same effect. Many hours of boiling the driftwood may need to be followed by many weeks or months of constant soaking and many water changes before the water will stay clear. Adding baking soda to the water to raise its pH level will accelerate the process of leaching, as the more alkaline solution can draw out tannic acid from the wood faster than the pH-neutral water.

Softwoods, while in general much lower in tannins than hardwoods, are usually not recommended for use in an aquarium so using a hardwood with a very light color, indicating a low tannin content, can be an easy way to avoid tannins. Tannic acid is brown in color, so in general white woods have a low tannin content. Woods with a lot of yellow, red, or brown coloration to them (like cedar, redwood, red oak, etc.) tend to contain a lot of tannin.



Food items with tannins

Pomegranates

Accessory fruits
Strawberries contain both hydrolyzable and condensed tannins.

Berries
Most berries, such as cranberries, and blueberries, contain both hydrolyzable and condensed tannins.

Nuts
Nuts that can be consumed raw, such as hazelnuts, walnuts, and pecans, contain high amounts of tannins. Almonds have a lower content. Tannin concentration in the crude extract of these nuts did not directly translate to the same relationships for the condensed fraction.

Herbs and spices
Cloves, tarragon, cumin, thyme, vanilla, and cinnamon all contain tannins.

Legumes
Most legumes contain tannins. Red-colored beans contain the most tannins, and white-colored beans have the least. Peanuts without shells have a very low tannin content. Chickpeas (garbanzo beans) have a smaller amount of tannins.

Chocolate
Chocolate liquor contains about 6% tannins.

Drinks with tannins
Principal human dietary sources of tannins are tea and coffee. Most wines aged in charred oak barrels possess tannins absorbed from the wood. Soils high in clay also contribute to tannins in wine grapes. This concentration gives wine its signature astringency.

Coffee pulp has been found to contain low to trace amounts of tannins.

Fruit juices
Although citrus fruits do not themselves contain tannins, orange-colored juices often contain food dyes with tannins. Apple juice, grape juices and berry juices are all high in tannins. Sometimes tannins are even added to juices and ciders to create a more astringent feel to the taste.

Beer
In addition to the alpha acids extracted from hops to provide bitterness in beer, condensed tannins are also present. These originate both from the malt and hops. Especially in Germany, trained brewmasters consider the presence of tannins as a flaw. In some styles, the presence of this astringency is acceptable or even desired, as, for example, in a Flanders red ale.

In lager type beers, the tannins can form a precipitate with specific haze-forming proteins in the beer resulting in turbidity at low temperature. This chill haze can be prevented by removing part of the tannins or part of the haze-forming proteins. Tannins are removed using PVPP, haze-forming proteins by using silica or tannic acid.




this page also has some interesting info. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_natural_phenols_and_polyphenols


tannins seem to have very little effect on the human body.

oak has been used for millennia in food production and if someone is concerned about bacteria getting into the pore structure then they should look at the size of bacteria and the smallest pores in timber. pores considered small (50 micrometers) are 50 times bigger than bacteria.



Offline Lazurus

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2018, 03:53:11 PM »
Oak barrels got me thinking if there was a process involved but they must be ok as used for millennia.
Living and working on the Norfolk Broads

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2018, 08:11:19 PM »
I think we have had a lot of information on this thread. Yes Oak has been used for probably millenia for food. However if someone served you food on a dirty plate in a retaurant you would send it back and that is my take on Oak, because it can have a wide and deep grain with deep fissures I would not be happy eating off of it. I guess my constitution may not be what it was and therein lies a reason but for me it is the difference between eating white or brown bread, we are no longer at war so we no longer have to eat brown bread!! :) :) :)

Has anyone noticed that food seems to play a great part in some of these threads?

Offline John Plater

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2018, 06:58:20 PM »
Sort of related to this thread and probably has been discussed elsewhere, but what do people think about supposed food safe finishes on utility items ? Some turners only ever use walnut oil as it is a totally natural product. Others use "propriety food safe oil" which is based on paraffin oil which is a laxative. I have heard some tell their customers to use olive oil to refresh the finish as required. My question is, how many of these natural products go rancid over time ?
If I had a better lathe, I would be able to show my ineptitude more effectively.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2018, 10:27:24 PM »
I use basic food oils such as sunflower, rape etc simply because these are the ones most people have and they are safe and don't go off. Olive oil will go rancid and the proprietary 'food safe oils' cost a fortune and in my experience are no better. Walnut oil can be a problem for people with nut allergies. I have items in my own use that have been treated with basic oils for a good number of years and no problem. 

Pete
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Offline Les Symonds

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2018, 10:43:39 PM »
I agree totally with Pete, proprietary "Food Safe" oils can be shockingly expensive and olive oil is so slow drying that it can become rancid if conditions permit. I stick to a proprietary brand of boiled linseed oil and let my customers know how to use it for future care and maintenance.
Les
Education is important, but wood turning is importanter.

Offline Hartwood

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2018, 07:12:34 AM »
Les is Boiled linseed oil food safe? Whats the process you use?

Offline Les Symonds

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2018, 02:32:51 PM »
Les is Boiled linseed oil food safe? Whats the process you use?
Hi Chris....good question! This issue cropped up in August 2016 when i posted a picture of about 20 bread-bowls I'd made for a local hotel, and I'd stated that they were treated with BLO. A forum member stated that BLO was not boiled, but laced with chemical dryers, which replicate the effects of the boiling process, but render the oil unsafe with food. I countered that remark with a quote from the H&S sheet of the brand (Fiddes)of oil that I use. Here's the quote.....It is safe for children's items as well as all surfaces which may come in to contact with food.Also, it is not true to say that all BLO is chemically treated instead of boiled; there are still producers of true boiled oil.

My method is to flood the surface with oil. If it's a bowl, then I'll pour oil into the bowl and slosh it around, then use paper towel to liberally coat the whole surface. I then let it stand for about 20 minutes and pour out any excess before wiping the surface as dry as I can. I repeat this process a few times and the delay in-between coats depends upon the porosity of the wood. It could be anything from 24hrs to 72 hrs and to determine when it's dry enough to proceed, I press a dry tissue against the surface and hold it there for about half-a-minute.
Les
Education is important, but wood turning is importanter.

Offline Frankenwood

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2018, 03:20:25 PM »
Hi,

I'm a relative newbie to wood turning, I have joined a club and have asked the question of 'food safe finishes' which did spark a wee bit of a debate ;D Said discussion did leave me none the wiser, so I continued my research. After a long, difficult and arduous 10minutes on the internet I found an article published many years ago in 'American Woodworker' (about 2002) which claimed that ALL finishes are safe, provided they have had 30 days to cure. And the FDA claims that there has never been any recorded instances of ill effects from woodfinishes, hopefully you'll be able to find it in the link below. I no longer worry and try to use the most appropriate finish (or whatever I've got to hand) for the project. Mind you, I'm not in the same league as some of the gentlemen here - I'm not yet of the standard to be able to offer anything for sale :)

https://www.popularwoodworking.com/techniques/q-a-is-polyurethane-food-safe
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Offline Paul Hannaby

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Re: Ignorance about toxicity and suitability of timber
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2018, 06:00:19 PM »
If you apply the theory about all finishes being safe once cured you could argue that lead paint was safe for salad bowls! I would suggest unless the product is certificated as food safe by the manufacturer, it's safest to assume it isn't.