Author Topic: H&S in our products  (Read 3283 times)

Offline bodrighywood

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H&S in our products
« on: August 29, 2017, 09:48:06 PM »
Health and safety is something most responsible turners are aware of in the workshop and pay heed to but more and more I am seeing even reputable turners who do not seem to either understand or care about H&S in their products. My own pet hobby horse is making candles or t lights without glass or metal inserts. For those that do this please be awase that most t lights are made of soya wax and candles of paraffin wax. The melting point of these are 180° for soya wax and 120° for paraffin wax. Depending on the wood and how dry it is the charring point can be as low as 120° When the wax is melted it can achieve a much higher temperature, especially towards the end with t lights when the wick is almost gone and the wax is heating up.  Also when making any form of light using candles or t lights they should be extremely stable not on a small foot that can easily topple. If nothing else will convince people remember that if you sell or give away a holder that is involved in a fire or injury you can be held legally responsible for selling or even giving a dangerous item to someone.

Pete
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Offline Les Symonds

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 09:55:27 PM »
Well said, Pete. I too have been concerned about this. There are several fire and rescue services in the Uk which have reported serious house-fires and even fatalities caused by this sort of thing and it just beggars belief that some turners continue to make un-shielded tea light and candle holders. It's almost understandable, but not acceptable that hobby turners and craft workers are selling this sort of thing on just about every facebook craft page going, but there is absolutely no excuse for any truly professional turner to make them.

Here's a picture of an item for sale in one of my local facebook craft pages....I've written to the owner and had my message deleted....so I've written to trading standards about it. This particular item isn't turned, but some of their stuff is.....but let's face it, whether turned or not, it's lethal.
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Offline Les Symonds

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 10:01:08 PM »
...and this....from a professional, full time turner :'(.....a house fire just waiting to happen!
Education is important, but wood turning is importanter.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 10:12:25 PM »
Perhaps I need to ;point out that melting wax to make candles both waxes have a melting point that is similar, between 120F and 180F but when using candles and t lights you are actually burning off a lot of the wax which occurs at a higher temperature. In the last examples by Ldes you see candlesticks that can potentially tip molten wax onto a surface that is even more inflammable.

Pete
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Offline Derek

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 10:38:58 PM »
I am purely a hobby turner and do sell at the odd craft fair. I do tea lights but never without an insert and also make them with a wide base for stability even when I am giving them away. Maybe a lot of this comes from being in the tool hire trade as a mechanic repairing tools which means I need to know the dangers not only in the repair of them but also the use. Even the workshop is cleaned out so as not to have tripping points or pile of shavings which can ignite more readily than solid wood

Offline edbanger

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2017, 07:15:15 AM »
All we can do is inform people when we see that they have tea lights and candle sticks without the proper safety in place. I done this on a number of occasions and many time I've had the same response that you have had Les.

Ed

Offline Les

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 08:17:18 AM »
Having made tons of these to customers designs which didn't have the glass inserts I have now stopped making them , not worth the hassle now!

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 08:39:21 AM »
Everything comes down to a risk assessment (RA). Tea light holders without a glass insert are not safe, the risk is that the wood will char, charred wood catches fire easier than un-charred wood. Add into that some wax from the candle and the flame and you have everything you need to set the wood on fire. So the RA should be to reduce the risk of charring in the first instance and prevent the wax from seeping into the wood in the second. The best way to do that is to put a barrier between the candle and the wood, a glass barrier will prevent the wax from seeping in and may deflect the flame from charring the wood. You now have to carry out another RA incase the glass insert warms up, this could lead to scorching of skin if touched so the RA should state that precautions should be taken to prevent the touching of the hot glass and the best way to do that is pop a little warning notice in with you tea light holder. You might all laugh at this but if it prevents one little one from having burnt fingers surely it makes sense.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 09:15:15 AM »
Everything comes down to a risk assessment (RA). You now have to carry out another RA incase the glass insert warms up, this could lead to scorching of skin if touched so the RA should state that precautions should be taken to prevent the touching of the hot glass and the best way to do that is pop a little warning notice in with you tea light holder. You might all laugh at this but if it prevents one little one from having burnt fingers surely it makes sense.

Hadn't thought of that aspect John, thanks. And you won't hear any laughter from this quarter. Taking risks with H&S for ourselves is our own choice (hopefully the sensible one) taking risks with other people is something else and a responsibility hat perhaps gets forgotten judging by the things I see for sale in shows etc. Personally I would like to see things like this enforced at competitions etc but have seen them in clubs when doing demos on the display tables.


Pete
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Offline seventhdevil

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 03:53:25 PM »
i've never made t lights for sale at a stall but if i did i would do a few tests first.

has anyone ever tested what effect a t light has when left to burn out completely on bare untreated timber?

i'd do it on some fairly softwoods that one would expect to catch light without too much difficulty like leylandii, cedar and pine and also on a few harder native species like oak, beech and laburnum  to see if that have any different results.

what are the most common timbers to use for t lights? would it be the smaller species like laburnum, sumac, yew, holly and box? how do they fare???


test in a safe location obviously...



Offline bodrighywood

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 09:16:47 PM »
i've never made t lights for sale at a stall but if i did i would do a few tests first.

has anyone ever tested what effect a t light has when left to burn out completely on bare untreated timber?

i'd do it on some fairly softwoods that one would expect to catch light without too much difficulty like leylandii, cedar and pine and also on a few harder native species like oak, beech and laburnum  to see if that have any different results.

what are the most common timbers to use for t lights? would it be the smaller species like laburnum, sumac, yew, holly and box? how do they fare???


test in a safe location obviously...

I have had oak char from a t light and other woods getting really hot. It is a fire hazard waiting to happen. Those of us who turn amnd sell our work have a respnsibility to make our products as safe as possible which means eliminating any possible risks. You could test a dozen different woods and have nothing happen then one will char and possibly catch fire. Safety should be of paramout importance both in materials, design and end purpose. As far as I am concerned it is simply irresponsible to take any risk on the grounds that you haven't had a problem yourself. Using your example of chainsaws in another posting many people who use them don't have accidents despite not using safety equipment but that doesn't make it a safe.

Pete
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline edbanger

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2017, 05:30:00 AM »
Thanks for the tip BHT I do some coloured tea lights that I sell at shows, with nice big glass tea light holders, which sell well.

But I have not including a warning on the possibility of the glass getting warm/hot I'll print something off to put with them in future.

Ed

Offline Bryan Milham

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2017, 02:10:51 PM »
In the Avon & Bristol Club we have an ex-Fire Inspector, one who examines the aftermath and works out what went wrong.

he tells a story of a family who put a tealight on a coin, it the bath, so there was light for them during the night to use the bathroom. It melted through the plastic bath and caused a fire, and I believe he said loss of life. He will not let us (through the club events) sell anything that holds a cable without a proper interface included.

I've seen wall sconces holding candles made from wood without a non-flammable interface, holes bored into branches and similar with tea-lights in, all dangerous and illegal.

One of my demos to clubs is on candlesticks, I talk about the legal requirements of the maker and retailer, give out a flyer on candle law and safety with examples of labels, to try and reinforce the safety aspect to turners.

I have to admit a stroke of luck here as well (and maybe a bit of boasting). The glass tea light holders that were available from Ikea once are unfortunately no longer made, but I managed to come across a box of 65 tubes of 10 a few weeks back, a lifetimes supply for tea-lights, now safely put away in my workshop.
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Offline Bryan Milham

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2017, 02:12:32 PM »
Thanks for the tip BHT I do some coloured tea lights that I sell at shows, with nice big glass tea light holders, which sell well.

But I have not including a warning on the possibility of the glass getting warm/hot I'll print something off to put with them in future.

Ed

Ed,

I'll post you a copy of my round warning labels, they sit under the glass insert and include all that is needed.
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Offline edbanger

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Re: H&S in our products
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2017, 11:36:26 PM »
Thanks Bryan  :)

All the best

Ed