Carbide tipped tools

[steve w]

Just wondering your thoughts on carbide tipped tools - i see a few for sale and was thinking of getting a set - round - square and triangle - but wanted to see what you guys thought of them as i know you will give an honest opinion -

if you do use them what make or ones would you sugest getting?

or do the just take the skill out of turning?

Thank, Steve

[GBF]

They are scrapers and can be quite useful have a look at the Crown tools Shear Scraper

Regards George

[hughie]

I own several most DIY although I have 3-4 Rolly Munro small round tips. The Rolly tips at the right angle will slice all the rest are basically scrapers. Rollys kit  comes into their own on small boxes, bowls and hollow vessels. If you master them as Rolly has done they will perform and leave a finish thats quite amazing.

 I use the DIY  for roughing out Australian hardwoods. The only down side can be sharpening or re-sharpening as this requires more specialized kit than the normal. The upside especially if you turn soft timber is the sharpening is once in a blue moon.
These days they have perfected fine grain Tungsten so getting a really good edge is no longer the problem it was a few years ago. Are they necessary? not really, are they handy? yes.

[Mark Sanger]

They are not something I have ever spent money on nor own, personally I think they are not necessary and just a way of tool companies coming up with something that you don't need just to get more of your money.

That aside as Hughie has highlighted they can be useful in certain circumstances, an important point. Boxes and hollow forms they are useful for but many hollowing tools come with scrapers as part of the kit so you don't need carbide. Also hollowing, boxes etc is normally achieved when turning end grain stock and in seasoned woods such as Australian burrs which are very dense compared to native UK timbers indeed scrapers will give an amazing finish, but they don't have to be carbide.

This is the main point for me, our native timbers are much faster growing than than many exotics and as such the chip formation is very different. Our timbers even those that we perceive as dense require to be sliced and the carbide cutters are obtuse and even though sharp don't slice as deep as a gouge resulting in tear out in many of our timbers especially in cross grain turning.

If you want a nice box scraper or other shaped just re-profile a good quality wood chisel or just buy a box scraper at about £20 and profile to your preferred shape and save your money. But if you are going to turn lots of hard exotics and alternative materials then carbide tools may be of use for you. Personally I think they are a waste of money for our timbers.   

In relation to do they take the skill out of turning, for me if a technique is safe and gives you the results you need then that is the tool and method to use, I am certainly not a purest but the basic seven turning tools are all you need and will give you the best finish from the tool that you will ever get on our native and many exotic timbers other than the most dense when a scraper profile can be a better option.

[steve w]

Thanks for the advice and explanation - it is appreciated - i resisted the temptation to order a set as i want to learn as you say the basic tools before i move on or try new tools or i will never progress, i turned a simple vase at the weekend out of some cedar i cut down about 8 yrs ago - i used the ring tool as you showd me mark, thanks, steve.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Get the ring tool cutting correctly and they are a joy to use.

[Mark Sanger]

Thanks for the advice and explanation - it is appreciated - i resisted the temptation to order a set as i want to learn as you say the basic tools before i move on or try new tools or i will never progress, i turned a simple vase at the weekend out of some cedar i cut down about 8 yrs ago - i used the ring tool as you showd me mark, thanks, steve.

Hope it helped with the hollowing.

[Eric Harvey]

Sorry I just have to say something here,Not all carbide tipped tools are scrapers,most hollowers that have carbide tips are Cutting tools Not scrapers,in the beginning there were a lot of scraping tools but these days things have moved on and developed,some seem to live in the dark ages still and won`t move with the modern era,and if your carbide cutter isn`t sharp enough,then get the Sorby cutter sharpening jig part no.SOV-ULTCSJ or make one so you can get your ball diamond burr in your high speed flexy arm motor and sharpen the carbide tip till it`s as sharp as you need it to be,cheers,

Eric.

[Mark Sanger]

Sorry I just have to say something here,Not all carbide tipped tools are scrapers,most hollowers that have carbide tips are Cutting tools Not scrapers,in the beginning there were a lot of scraping tools but these days things have moved on and developed,some seem to live in the dark ages still and won`t move with the modern era,and if your carbide cutter isn`t sharp enough,then get the Sorby cutter sharpening jig part no.SOV-ULTCSJ or make one so you can get your ball diamond burr in your high speed flexy arm motor and sharpen the carbide tip till it`s as sharp as you need it to be,cheers,

Eric.

Certainly don't apologies for saying something Eric it is an inclusive forum for all. You are f course right most carbide 'hollowers' are indeed cutters and work well for 'End grain hollowing'.

My original thoughts rightly or wrongly assumed that Steve was talking about the shaped cutters on the market for the shaping of the outside of forms and not hollowing, a conclusion I came to as he mentioned the shapes which as far as I am aware, triangular and square are not used for hollowing.

Both company's here in the Uk and USA that have external shapes carbide tools for the outside are scrapers and not cutters and like I say perhaps my assumptions were incorrect from Steve's original post and if they were I apologise if my information confused anyone.

For me it is not about remaining in the dark ages but learning from it, if carbide tools are used to shape the outside of our native woods then generally the wrong tools are being used, bevelled tools are the best option, hence my mentioning chip formation. Understanding properties of wood and chip formation allows us to understand how to cut it, knowing this means we don't have to waste money on tools that we do not need and make life harder for us.

For me the most efficient hollowing tools for open end grain vessels are the hook and ring tool both I use regularly, but few sadly today will try them let alone know how to use them, instead just go for the easy route without building a solid foundation of knowledge and skill with the basic traditional tools.

There are indeed for me a place for all the tools on the market today, hook, ring, carbide, bevelled and scrapers, the best tool ultimately is knowledge in knowing when and when not to use them. If we want to get with the times, just go CNC.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

the best tool ultimately is knowledge

Couldn't agree more.

[Eric Harvey]

Mark,I  agree bevel edge tools for getting a smooth surface on the outside,and ring tools make great hollowing tools for end grain on the inside of vessels and boxes,I have a very old ring tool that still works very well,but some of the modern deep hollowing tools will go where a ring tool is to short,I`ve never used a hook tool so can`t comment on them,I think George just wanted to liven up the discussion to get somebody to bite with his comment,and liven up the discussion it has,if it gets people talking and mulling over all ideas that is great for everyone,cheers,

Eric.

[Steve Jones]

I don't own carbide tips other than an old sorby hollowing tool which I hate and a Hope carbide tool that I use for larger hollow forms. For me they are good for end grain hollowing in deep vessels but other than that I don't use them. sorry I can;t help more but have never bothered with them for anything else.