Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions

[Mark Sanger]

 Tony.
            For goodness sake ask your bloody Insurance Company they are the experts you cannot expect laymen to give you the answers you are seeking Insurance questions can not be answered by the AWGB "It is against The Law" or are you just playing Devils Advocate 

                                             Regards John

hear, hear

[John D Smith]

Hi Mark S thank you for your support firstly I apologise for using the  'B' word  can you imagine the first person who sues a woodturning club for an injury  that will be the end of woodturning clubs because you will never get another Committee and lets face it that is hard enough now.
One of the things that has ruined a lot of crafts is when the schools got so scared of being sued they sold off all of their equipment so now the pupils when the leave to go out into the big bad world are not prepared for the safe working practices I always thought schools were preparing students for the real world.
                               Regards John

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Exactly right Pete also my experience of most club members they would not be capable of doing a decent Demo.
As for the AWGB Demonstrator course everybody I have spoken to say it is a waste of time as apparently you don't even have to be a competent turner to do it.

Regards George

George the course is not intended to produce competent turners the course is intended to give club members the confidence to carry out a demonstration at club level. It is not intended to train members to become free lance demonstrators and as one who has conducted one or two courses I can tell you that unless a dangerous practice is observed those that run the courses are not there to comment on the turning prowess of those undertaking the training as that would then be counter productive. I wonder how many of the people that you spoke to and had attended the course were lacking in confidence? If they were already confident then they may well have got less benefit from it than those that were less assured of themselves.
   I also think that it should be remembered that all of these courses are run by volunteers who give their time free of charge so that at least some woodturners can take advantage of what the Association offers and hopefully improve their skill base.

[Mark Sanger]

Hi Mark S thank you for your support firstly I apologise for using the  'B' word  can you imagine the first person who sues a woodturning club for an injury  that will be the end of woodturning clubs because you will never get another Committee and lets face it that is hard enough now.
One of the things that has ruined a lot of crafts is when the schools got so scared of being sued they sold off all of their equipment so now the pupils when the leave to go out into the big bad world are not prepared for the safe working practices I always thought schools were preparing students for the real world.
                               Regards John

Your welcome and you are a gent for apologising for the 'B' word but I understand where you are coming from and personally no apology needed. One of the past times I have always said I will never get involved in is a committee, obviously I know many that are and the grief and hassle they go through giving their time for free often goes without thanks and comes with loads of hassle. Look at the committee of the AWGB who do a great job and get hassle all of the time, it always amuses me though that the people that give the hassle and criticism are never the ones stood in front of the line when the position is up for renewal to give there free time and experience to the cause.

Not that any one in this thread has given any criticism I am just generalising from past experience, if people don't like something then sod off and go find something you do like being involved in.  

Again I you have it right as we are not experts in the field of insurance and we all know the AWGB can not give advise on the subject, this has been clarified many times so if people want to know specifics go ask an expert.

My daughters school has 2 CNC lathes and one hand woodturning lathe, when I asked where it was I was told that it was in the technicians room and the students are not allowed to use it due to H&S. I want to add that I do not think in any way it was the H&S executive that imposed this but the school policy. Every one is now so risk averse that so many crafts/activities as you say have been ruined. Also they were not allowed to run on the hard surface area at break time in case they fell over, well if they did fall over a few times perhaps they would learn a lot quicker.  

One thing that pifs me off about all this H&S talk is that if people didn't act like morons and took responsibility for their own actions instead of wanting to sue everyone their wouldn't behalf the problems, it seems it is always someone else's fault, hence we need the H&S executive to bed feed everyone and to look after us as we can't do it on our own.

There is as you appreciate and all of us do a very valid reason for H&S and none of use would ever want to do something that would in any way put anyone in danger but as we know everything has a risk attached to it and it is up to all of us to make sure that risk is reduced as much as we can, whining and passing the buck is not the way to go about it, taking responsibility is.

off to the workshop now  

 

[malcy]

Totally 100 per cent right, Mark. Malcolm.

[TONY MALIN]

No John (SMITH) a Devil's Advocate takes on a position which he does not necessarily agree with to further a debate. I do my best to draw attention to areas where facts have become blurred. In respect of legalese in documents, having no legal qualifications, I suppose I'm a layman. However I claim to be a reasonably knowledgeable one by virtue of over 40 years experience in dealing with terms and conditions of sale and contract across a wide range of companies. Hence my special interest.

Compared with the words used this week at Wimbledon "bloody" is extremely mild and no need of apology.

If debate about insurance is not to disappear like woodwork in schools we need to overcome "cant say because it's illegal". To that extent I maintain that asking if a policy does or does not use specific words does not constitute asking for advice. In that context you have to bear in mind that AWGB negotiated the terms of the Tennyson policy. As our club does not use that policy I've only skipped through the text.

BTW For money changing hands see Revolutions MARCH 2015.

[Paul Hannaby]

Exactly right Pete also my experience of most club members they would not be capable of doing a decent Demo.
As for the AWGB Demonstrator course everybody I have spoken to say it is a waste of time as apparently you don't even have to be a competent turner to do it.

Regards George

George,
I think you are doing club members a dis-service. After all, aren't you a club member too? and aren't many of the professional demonstrators also club members>

There are some very capable club members with a lot to offer.

I have also seen a few poor demonstrations (including some by people claiming to be "professionals") but none of them could be attributed to the demonstrator being a member of a club.

The demonstrator course is exactly what it says it is - a grounding in presentation techniques. Have you done the course yourself? If you have any suggestions on how the course can be improved, I'm sure our development team would be glad to hear your comments.

[GBF]

[quote author=Paul Hannaby
Exactly right Pete also my experience of most club members they would not be capable of doing a decent Demo.
As for the AWGB Demonstrator course everybody I have spoken to say it is a waste of time as apparently you don't even have to be a competent turner to do it.

[/quote]

George,
I think you are doing club members a dis-service. After all, aren't you a club member too? and aren't many of the professional demonstrators also club members>

There are some very capable club members with a lot to offer.

I have also seen a few poor demonstrations (including some by people claiming to be "professionals") but none of them could be attributed to the demonstrator being a member of a club.

The demonstrator course is exactly what it says it is - a grounding in presentation techniques. Have you done the course yourself? If you have any suggestions on how the course can be improved, I'm sure our development team would be glad to hear your comments.

[/quote]

t seems to me Paul that you are trying to imply that I said all club members in my opinion were incapable of doing a decent Demo when if you like to read it again you will see I said most club members.(try and keep up.
My experience is that the majority of club members are very much novices and in my opinion unless somebody is a proficient and safe turner they should not be doing Demo's.
I did once consider doing the demonstrator course but when I discussed it with one of your trainers I was told it was not necessary for the member taking the course to be a competent turner or any sort of turner ( correct me if I am wrong)
How can you qualify as a woodturning demonstrator if you cannot turn.

Why would club members want to watch a demo by somebody who was not a decent turner but had attended one of your courses it is hard enough now to keep members interested without them having to put up with a poor demo.

We have had experience in our club of a demo from somebody who had attended one of your courses. He was completely out of his depth mumbled to himself was ill prepared and made a real Sow's ear of it so obviously your course never taught him anything about preparation or how to communicate with his audience.

Regards George
.

[burywoodturners]

Oh dear, I wish I hadn't started this one!
it still seems odd to me that someone does undertake the course and is then too shy to want to take advantage of it.
As for club members who demonstrate, well I can't even get them to enter a club competition!
Still looking to fill the last two slots for next years programme.
Ron

[Paul Hannaby]

George,
I wasn't inferring anything, just stating what I said and I still disagree with you.

I think you are the one missing the point, as I said before, the ability to do a demo or not isn't related to club membership.

No course would claim to make anyone an expert overnight. As I'm sure you will agree, some people develop skills faster than others and some people find demonstrating hard going. It may be down to bad preparation but it could also be nerves, stage fright or whatever you want to call it. Most people find with experience it becomes easier but there are those who decide it's not for them. Each to their own I say and in my opinion, we can only praise them for having the spirit to get up and have a go.

Without clubs who are prepared to show some tolerance and work with demonstrators along their journey to proficiency, how can you expect them to improve and where do you think the next generation of demonstrators will come from!

[GBF]

George,
I wasn't inferring anything, just stating what I said and I still disagree with you.

I think you are the one missing the point, as I said before, the ability to do a demo or not isn't related to club membership.

I never said the ability to do a demo had anything to do with club membership but as most of us belong to clubs and all the Demo's I have done have been in clubs I can only speak from experience.

As for you agreeing with anything I say I think there is more likelihood of me sleeping with Britany Spears

Regards George

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I have heard on the grapevine that Britney Spears is going to Burnham on sea this year 

[GBF]

That would be good john we have Paul Hannaby in our Club in November 

Regards George

[fuzzyturns]

Don't believe everything the grapevine tells you.

Oh dear, I wish I hadn't started this one!

Why do you wish that? It would appear to me that this is a subject close to the heart of many people who are here, and we are having a lively exchange of views and ideas, which is precisely what a forum is all about.

From my own observation I would have to agree with George that many ordinary club members would struggle putting together a demonstration, never mind one that people would want to see or pay money for. However, this has to be seen against the background of what a club is. Your members range from professional right through to the person who wants to escape SWMBO for a day. They come from all walks of life, and not many of them will have ever had the opportunity to speak in public, let alone doing it while holding a razor sharp tool against a piece of wood rotating at 1000rpm. Presentation skills are something that has to be learned, just like any other skill, including wood turning, and many club members simply do not spend enough time turning to become truly proficient at it. To them, it's a hobby and that's all. They do not even have the desire to demonstrate.

I also agree with George, that a demo by somebody who is not proficient and at ease with the task, is probably either boring or dangerous (and possibly both).

So all in all, the course is probably meant for people who want to demonstrate, but are unsure about some aspects of it. It's not about turning skills, it's about presentation/safety/etc. In any case, those folks who do bad demos probably get told very quickly, and then have a chance to up their skills or leave it.
I think all that's happened here is that George has been very honest and direct, which is why we all love him so much, right?

OTOH, Paul does have a point, too. Clubs must be prepared to work with their members. And since clubs are made up of members, that means the better members have to put in some time and effort to teach the less proficient ones.
And since you (George) have quite some experience, maybe it would be a good idea to work with the AWGB to make the course better?

[GBF]

Thank you Fuzzy that about sums it up.
I do not do Demo's other than in our own Club at Burnham on Sea any more .
I have seen dozens of Dem's mostly by good Pro turners and have learned something from all of them .
We do not have hands on evenings in our club anymore because it always turns into  a Demo evening which is usually boring because most members will not get up and have a go they would rather be entertained for the evening by good demonstrators..
We are very lucky that in our small club we have five members that are capable of doing a professional Demo this enables us to have two top turners for all day demo's a year and several for evening Dem's.
Because we do not have hands on evenings we have four full day hands on days in my workshop every year.

Regards George