Author Topic: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions  (Read 32246 times)

Offline steve w

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2015, 08:13:10 PM »
Hi Mark - thanks for the above reply to my post - i guess your right about people asking, but i  think its wrong for somone to ask you how you came to a costing, a demo many miles away should be more, but how you calculate it is up to you and shouldnt be questioned.
why do i feel the need to turn a block of wood into shavings?

Offline Mark Sanger

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2015, 08:25:53 PM »
Hi Mark - thanks for the above reply to my post - i guess your right about people asking, but i  think its wrong for somone to ask you how you came to a costing, a demo many miles away should be more, but how you calculate it is up to you and shouldnt be questioned.

Thanks Steve, it is and I guess will always be debated just as with any business cost, I do believe as I am sure you will that we as business people work in partnership with our customers, if there is no demand we are up the creek, if there is not the skill available then the customer can't get the job done so I believe we rightly need each other.

It is quite interesting that recently I was politely criticized by another turner on the circuit that I do not charge enough but I am happy with what I earn and I am very busy, better to have a bird in the hand so to speak.  :) But I won't buy work as I am fortunate not to have to, but by the same token I won't kick the rear end out of it either.

I do feel partly, just as the article in Revolutions points out that if prices keep going up then people will not be booked by clubs and this won't help the craft, so on the other side of the coin we as turners have to decide if we want the work for a reasonable return for our time or want no work for a higher price, after all it is only turning.  :) :)  
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 08:29:02 PM by Mark Sanger »

Offline Richard Findley

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2015, 09:04:57 PM »
While I can see both sides of the story, it does puzzle me a little. Stretching Mark's plumber analogy a little further, if you need a plumber you ask friends for recommendations, get a quote and either go for it or not. Good plumbers charge more and are always busy. As a turner and demonstrator I have worked hard to build my reputation. My prices are on my website and so you take your choice and pay the price.

At the end of the day it is a business transaction. Those turners that give a poor demo or don't give value for money won't, or perhaps shouldn't get booked again. Those that work hard and do a good job should never be out of work!

Just my thoughts

Richard
See more of my work at www.turnersworkshop.co.uk
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Offline Philip Greenwood

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2015, 09:08:54 PM »
Its a fine line how much you charge for a demo and how much you charge for traveling costs.

I know both sides as a demonstrator and as chairman for my local club.

I have to charge a rate to cover the time which as a rough guide is 11 hrs preparing, traveling and demo time. Then a charge for traveling which more then  covers fuel costs, but I have to think about the extra cost per year  like servicing, but  I have to insure my car  for business class 1 use. The normal cover will only allow me to travel to my work, but not for using to travel to demo, this cost me extra.

As a member of the committee I understand the cost that we face when we book a demonstrator and the need to balancing the books at the year end. Yes we have to say no we can't afford some demonstrators due to the costs, but we don't expect a demonstrator to come and not cover there costs when woodturning is they main income.

A feedback form is available to send feedback to the RPT on the demo, this is on the RPT website.

Offline David Buskell

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2015, 09:39:46 PM »
 
   this year one of the Demonstrators gave us an assessment form to complete and return to the Register of Professional Turners this was a First for me in 10 years how many do this?

                                                                        Regards John
                                                 

We also find it is rare for an RPT member to provide a feedback form ! Perhaps the RPT need to encourage their members to promote the forms -surely it is not up to us to download  the  forms.


as a professional person doing a full day demo what do you feel is a 'reasonably' price including everything for a days demo including preparation and post work, £240- £300 -£400 ? what do you believe is value for money ?

   

Not easy to say what is an average  fair rate. The fee for a full day demo should also factor in the popularity/skills/entertainment/education/rarity value of the demonstrator and this will be reflected in the cost. The club can then price up the event accordingly to ensure that there is sufficient take-up on tickets and the overall costs for the event are covered.



David
At The Cutting Edge

Offline John D Smith

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2015, 09:54:24 PM »

      I agree with the comments made by Richard F. one other point I would like to make some Demonstrators if they have not finished a piece will give this to a member to finish off which is most generous.
  There are others who make several items at the Demo then take them away to sell so surely that pays for the cost of the wood used.I would say 95% of the time we are more than happy with the Demonstrators we book and the point Richard made if they do not give value for money they do not get booked again.
                               Regards John
John Smith

Offline Philip Greenwood

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2015, 10:30:22 PM »

                                                

We also find it is rare for an RPT member to provide a feedback form ! Perhaps the RPT need to encourage their members to promote the forms -surely it is not up to us to download  the  forms.


[/quote]
   
All RPT are encouraged to hand out feedback forms, I hand one out at all my demos, with an stamped address envelope.

The best feedback is being asked back to clubs you have been to many times. One club booked me for 2 dates next year as I walked in,  that must say lot.

One club give a feedback questionnaire to all members  on the night, this asks them was the demonstrator value for money, would you like to see them again, did you learn anything, and a few more.

Good demonstrators will always be in work. Yes I know there is a limit before you out price yourself, but I like others need to cover the costs for the hours that go into a demo, but still knowing clubs can afford to pay for a demo by us.

I know we have lost members at my club which means we have to look at the demo costs when we have less income from subs. I know its hard for both side, that's why as a demonstrator I have to give value for money every time I go out. I know clubs will if not already reach a point when demos will become a less of a clubs feature at they meetings.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 09:18:06 AM by Philip Greenwood »

Offline Mark Hancock

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2015, 11:18:51 AM »
Very interesting discussion and I'm glad Mark S brought it up as the article also caught my attention. And I blame him for my long reply :)

I'd just like clarify the 45p per mile rate. This is the rate set by the HMRC to calculate the amount of tax relief a business can claim for business mileage. So if a business does 5000 miles it can claim £2250 as a business expense against turnover and so reduce their tax liability. It does not relate to fuel prices only but is intended to cover all the costs of running a business vehicle eg fuel, depreciation etc. A business can charge what they like to the customer though it's usually affected by market forces.

Another point is that both clubs and demonstrators (those that earn their living from woodturning) are businesses and as such have to be aware of their income and expenditure. Expenditure include both fixed and indirect costs (those not directly attributed to a particular job eg insurance, office overheads, accountant’s fee etc). As Mark has already said it's no good doing demos if there is no profit/benefit in it for the turner. (I've put "profit/benefit" because there may be reasons to do work at a loss for the reward of future profits.)  With the clubs they are usually looking at balancing their books with maybe a small surplus for upgrading equipment etc.

I’ll stick my neck out here but as I see it the problem arises where the Turner is trying to make a living and the Clubs are trying not to increase fees to their members. I find the implied notion in the article that for a club of 50 members the suggested annual fee of £32.50 to have 6 demos a year on top of their membership fee would make the total cost of membership prohibitive unbelievable. I realise that most club members are on limited incomes but that is an increase of £2.71 per month or 63 pence per week. There has been mention of losing members but my experience of the clubs I visit has been of them not taking on more members because the club is full and members belonging to more than one club. Maybe they are just better run clubs?

Clubs can get round this by charging a door fee for specific demos. Another way of bringing in new demonstrators from further afield is for clubs in an area to work together and share the costs. I know this has worked in a number of areas of the country notably the South West and Borders Region with both the Turner and Club benefit. But it does depend on Turner and Club working together.

As to a “reasonably” price for a day demo it’s an impossible question to answer because all businesses have different expenses and consequently overhead recovery rates leading to different fees. Market forces appear to play a more important role in demo pricing.

With regard to “value for money”, it can’t really be assessed by club members if they don’t know the fee being charged? This came up when the RPT feedback form was looked at a while back. All that really can be said is it was good, informative, entertaining demo and I learnt something from it or the opposite.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 11:24:35 AM by Mark Hancock »

Offline Mark Sanger

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2015, 11:42:53 AM »

as a professional person doing a full day demo what do you feel is a 'reasonably' price including everything for a days demo including preparation and post work, £240- £300 -£400 ? what do you believe is value for money ?

   

Not easy to say what is an average  fair rate. The fee for a full day demo should also factor in the popularity/skills/entertainment/education/rarity value of the demonstrator and this will be reflected in the cost. The club can then price up the event accordingly to ensure that there is sufficient take-up on tickets and the overall costs for the event are covered.
[/quote]


It is very easy Dave, a person making a proper living from their trade, I am not talking about a turner that has a pension behind them and doesn't really need to earn a living from turning but a proper trade. The average for a day wage in Dorset for a skilled trade is £150-£185 per 8 hour day so this should be the minimum fee before materials, travelling expenses/vehicle running costs etc etc etc, extra on this will be added travelling time, fuel costs, this is how the trades people I know price there work.


Offline Mark Sanger

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2015, 12:31:58 PM »
As an example if they are on the road at 7 to go to London with a 2 hr travelling time each way then this is added to their day rate, on top of this is the vehicle running costs, the customer has the choice in that if they want that particular trades person they pay the price or get someone local.  

So if demonstrators are running a business properly they should not buy the work by not charging for travelling time but should charge it out at the same rate as their hourly production time as this is what they lose, add the fuel costs plus materials, sundries etc. If this is done then I would charge for fuel and drop the 45p/mile as this will be tax deductible.

So if I was charging out a demo for a club that was say a 6 hour round trip my added costs would be £30 x 6 + £45 fuel lets be generous and charge the hourly rate at £20/hour £120 on top of the day rate of £185 = £305 + £45 fuel

£350

If we look at it more and start adding time lost from production to get ready for a all day demo again being generous say 4 hours especially if I need to rough turn hollow forms etc to sharpen tools, pack every thing, then we add another £80

£430

When we get back getting the workshop straight, more lost production time 2 hours another £40 and this is being generous as I can turn £40/hour net for my time by staying in the work shop.

so

£430 + £40 = £ 470

£470 for a day turning demonstration, not on your bxxxxy Nelly I hear you shout  :) but its not a days turning it is 1 3/4 days work call it 2 cause you are not going to do much with the rest as you will ne knackered from all the driving.

So in reality what I charge is my day rate and 45p/mile which is not a back hander/extra wage but covers the fuel, running cost, depreciation of the works  vehicle

£470 divided by 2 (if we charge for prep time and travelling which we don't) so lets take off the £120 and the fuel charge of £45

= £305

 add the 45/p/mile many begrudge paying so £240 mile x .45 = £108 but exclude this from our wage as it is genuine running costs not some hidden back hand.  

£305 / 16 hrs work including the(prep of pieces and lost production time) £19.06/hour - 20% tax £3.80 £15.24/hour before all other over heads depreciation etc In reality for a full days demo with a lot of driving time thisis is 2 full days work.

£15.24 x 8 hours =  divided by 2 = £121.92/day before over heads, sundries, depreciation of tools, office costings, etc etc etc, so being generous - another £10/day for over heads £111.92/day not on your nelly  :) :) :) :) .

So if we rework the blanks and get them to a gallery standard they will on top of the time already processing and roughing (if we do this) this more than pays for the blanks ok i'll give you that, but what pays for the lost time, I know, I will give it for free out of my earnings as I am a charitable chap like that !! I make on the sale of the piece as I didn't charge for my travelling time/lost production time etc.


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So now lets look at it from my skilled trades person/wages point of view.

By staying in my workshop for a day 1000-1600 this is my day as I also look after my daughters, that is 4 hours less over the two days for a demo

I can on production bowl and other turning in this time (much less than for a demo) net double the fee from the demonstration with no travelling, no lost production, no lost hourly rate, no excessive tiredness which lowers my production rate for a few days, no wear and tear on my vehicle etc etc etc.

It was very well put in the Revolutions article/paraphrasing if you don't want the work then don't do it hence the reason I only do a few evening demos with very local clubs and the odd one now and again further a field/abroad if is a positive process on my business IE networking. Since I have decided to stop most of the demo's my percentage of profit has vastly risen to the extent that I now realise I am giving money away to demo compared with production turning.

So I hear what clubs are saying and I can see how having to put the yearly fees up to £36 can hurt s it is such a huge amount for one years fee's of a club, trust me giving away my money just for 1 x demo instead of staying in the workshop hurts me also  :)try giving away £2000 a year so you can buy the demo work. For this reason I have pretty much stopped demos and I would urge other demonstrators to look at the genuine business/hourly rate costs involved in an all day and evening demo charge it and if clubs won;t pay then don't demo. Simples.  

Now it does not mean I do not enjoy demonstrating or the people at them to the contrary I have made many friends and enjoy the laugh and banter very much, but having a young family and not getting my Police pension until I am 60 I have to pay for the bills, it is just not a viable option for me to greatly lower my hourly rate and percentage of profit to attend demo's, this for me if just buying work, businesses don't buy work they make a profit for time spent time.

Of course some demonstrators charge much more than me as they are more experienced etc, some charge less so it will vary.,

That is it from me on the subject  :) :) I have done the maths with my accountant so will stay in the workshop more often than not. :) :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 12:44:16 PM by Mark Sanger »

Offline John D Smith

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2015, 02:26:12 PM »


      ALL OF THESE CALCULATIONS ARE TO MUCH FOR ME :D :D enough said ::) Regards John
John Smith

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2015, 03:00:27 PM »
One way to avoid all of these costs is for AWGB members to take up the free of charge demonstrator's course and get their club to pay for their expenses. That way you can have free demonstrations done by your friends.

Offline Mark Sanger

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2015, 03:01:41 PM »
 :) :) :) I think they are too much for many John hence the article in Revolutions :) :)


Offline Mark Sanger

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2015, 03:03:26 PM »
One way to avoid all of these costs is for AWGB members to take up the free of charge demonstrator's course and get their club to pay for their expenses. That way you can have free demonstrations done by your friends.

Yes I think that is certainly a good way for clubs to save the money and swap ideas, design and techniques.

Offline TONY MALIN

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Re: Cost of Demonstrations/Revolutions
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2015, 05:53:53 PM »
Woodturning clubs are insignificant compared with many other activities and are mostly dependent on demonstrators to fulfil their programmes. We'd be lost without them, so they need to be suitably reimbursed for what they do. By the nature of things they will charge what the market will stand. It doesn't really matter to us what costs they incur or how they manage their taxes.

Dave Atkinson's original article highlighted some aspects of cost which may not have been apparent to some people. By contrast the present article by Peter Martin uses some strange comparisons and is thoroughly unhelpful.

The cost of travel in terms of time is significant let alone the 45p per mile. It would therefore seem sensible to charge only the marginal cost and absorb the fixed expense.

BTW As there is so much debate on the Forum I thought it might have got a mention at the AGM.