Author Topic: What price art?  (Read 21729 times)

Offline GBF

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2015, 10:33:39 PM »
I have only used that because I don't have one of yours Pete :) :) :) :)

Regards George
The man that never made a mistake never made anything

Offline Mark Sanger

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2015, 08:12:41 AM »
Because I have now found out this Ray key piece might be worth a few bob I not going to use it as a door stop anymore and have replaced it with another bit that has been hanging about for a few years.

 :D :D :D :D very funny, and who said lidded forms have no use.  :D :D :D

The ones of yours I have George come in useful too, I show them to students as a guide to the pit falls of form.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

How about getting back on track  :) :)

Offline GBF

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2015, 08:28:16 AM »
 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
The man that never made a mistake never made anything

Offline edbanger

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2015, 09:15:09 AM »
Loving the door stops George :) :) :) :)

Now I've been giving this what price of art some thought having been in sales and marketing for the best part of 40 years I think that the answers are pretty simple.

You charge as much as your market will support, this way you do not under value your work, but in the same time your reputation as a wood turning artist will give you your ceiling.

If say I made a Stuart Mortimer twisted spiral hollow form and could get the exact same finish, I would not get the same price for my work as Stuart would for his. Why because who's Ed Oliver.

People who in the top galleries know who's who even in woodturning, if I were to take my work to a gallery on Chelsea they would not probably look at it as I have not built a high profile reputation as a woodturner. But if Stuart or many other woodturners that have a profile with in our field were to go to the same gallery there work would be looked at and probably displayed, they would even not be held to the same commission charges.

So to command a high selling price you need to create your market.

Reputation and location will take a 100.00 piece up to 4 or 5 times that.

Ed  

    

Offline Graham

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2015, 10:23:27 AM »
Very true Ed, but how do you do that ?
Creating a good reputation amongst other turners is probably quite easy ( given the skill is there ) but other turners will not be part of your market. How do you 'brand' for the man in the street ?
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?

Offline Les Symonds

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2015, 05:42:56 PM »
So to command a high selling price you need to create your market.

Reputation and location will take a 100.00 piece up to 4 or 5 times that.....
....and that is precisely my problem.

There is not an established venue in my region for what I'm doing, thus there is not an established market or clientele. At the moment I'm taking the £100 piece and getting £100 for it. I am building the foundations of a reputation, just as I am desperately trying to establish my shop/gallery as a 'location', but this is not going to be a speedy process. Early signs are good. We are getting professional, discerning people coming to see us and spending money with us. I am very much aware of what George mentioned earlier in this thread about upsetting clients by hiking prices, but I am having so much fun playing with all manner of styles and types of woodturning, that my new stock is almost impossible to compare with what has sold before it....thus my clients will not be able to make direct comparisons of artifact/price.


Les

p.s. .... I don't know about anyone else, but I'm also enjoying the Foweraker/Sanger variety extravaganza; keep it coming guys!

Les
Education is important, but wood turning is importanter.

andersonec

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2015, 06:47:35 PM »
Any professional or advanced amateur who can turn out top notch stuff has done just that, he has improved his skill to a high degree where he is making good quality beautiful items, to call it 'art' I think is being a tad pretentious, when does a top hand made kitchen become art? or any other such items? Let's face it, most wood turners would, with enough practice be able to make beautiful good quality items but calling it art? I don't know. Were Grinling Gibbons or Chippendale classed as artist's?

This is what I would class as 'art' with wood.
http://www.viralnova.com/wood-chip-sculptures/


Andy

Andy Coates

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2015, 07:08:25 PM »
Despite not aiming or wishing to, this is always going to end up and an "art Vs craft" debate. It has to, because in order to answer the question you first need to ascertain what "art" is, and are there wood turned items that qualify for the title. IMHO there are some. Not many. But some.

In the view of those that make the distinction where it matters - the actual galleries, Tate Etc., the answer is clearly and resoundingly, "no". How do we know? Because they don't buy/display it. Why? Probably because the retail galleries from which they derive leads on trends are not yet stocking wood turned objects. "Galleries" is often a misleading name for a vendor of what I'll call "created work". The name immediately seems to suggest that everything sold within is "art". Well we know that's not true. Have you seen some of those water colours!

There are wood turned objects in those other great British instituations: the museum. But there's a problem with museums. In the main they are viewed as repositories of artefacts, ephemera, posh objet d'art. The V&A actually has a small but representative (of mainly US turners it has to be said, although Ray Key is there) collection of wood turning. It's never on show. It's archived. And when it was on display it was curated in the context of "hand-crafted" rather than "art".

Of course anybody can ascribe the distinction "art" to anything. Nobody can stop you. But if what you (we) want is for (some) wood turned work to be classified as art then you need to represent it as such and hope that somebody bites.

I have believed for a long time that the primary drive amongst the woodturning world (and for that matter the pottery world - as opposed to "ceramics"...it's much vaunted and valued older sibling) to have the product of our labours classified as "art" is because there's a certain cache to "art", an otherness that would set it apart, and with that comes a bigger price tag. I can see the allure but question the motive.

Far greater men and women than me have argued about the definition of art, and largely failed. The OED makes it clear in what many "art experts" call a "simplistic and unrealistic" fashion. So you can make your own mind up if you want to. But sadly, the final arbiters, the "real" galleries, and by default the people who visit them and allow their personal buying habits to be influenced by what they exhibit remain steadfastly absent of wood turned objects.

If what you actually want is for the true value of your work to be; a) recognised, b) acknowledged, and c) paid for, then that's a different question and in no way dependent upon an "art" tag being attached. All you need for that is to do what you well, do it in a fashion that makes it truly yours and nobody else's, and to find your market. And once found, test the water and charge whatever you can get away with.

If what you actually want beyond all else is for your work to be viewed as "art" then good luck. You'll need it. And a strong back. And a strong constitution. And you probably won't have the time to come on here and navel gaze about it. You'll be too busy rushing around like the proverbial blue arsed fly trying to get the world to notice you.

So in answer to your question, as far as it can be answered: charge what folk will pay. And if, as Mark has already said, you can learn to turn twenty objects in the same time and to the same standard it used to take you all day to achieve for one, you might even earn a small living at it.

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2015, 07:56:13 PM »
Whilst I would agree with pretty much everything you say Andy, I do also believe that woodturning, like any 'craft' can be art. Modern woodturning has progressed to a point where it is often beyond the utilitarian and decorative role it had in our predecessors time. Art, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder to a large extent and trying to define anything as art is always going to be a contentious issue. Is a Ming vase simply an exquisite piece of craft work or an art form. is a Damien Hurst work an art or an attempt simply to evoke emotion (distaste and disgust usually for me). My own personal ambition, yet to be achieved to my satisfaction, is to have someone wanting to pick up something I have made, feel it (the tactile aspect of wood is a huge part of all this) and want to have it in their life. To have someone buy something simply because it was made by Bodrighy Wood is not something I either strive for or ever expect to happen. As far as I am concerned, whether woodturning is defined as an art or a craft is irrelevant. The things that I make will hopefully be things that people want, need, or at best desire. I will never be rich from it and doubt if I will ever be well known but for me I am doing something I love, get a feeling of fulfilling by creating and a bubble that hopefully will never go away whenever someone says they love something I have made and want it as part of their life. My aim is not to impress people in how clever I am, no chance of that, nor be rich, too much responsibility, but to simply enjoy what I do, hopefully pass on the little skills I have and, as I put it to one stoopid persons query as to what a particular piece was for, ' enhance some peoples living environment.' Wood turning ...Art or Craft? Who cares, it's fun, beautiful and enjoyable.

pete
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Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2015, 08:34:23 PM »
In an echo of the two previous posts I offer a poem that I learnt off by heart as a boy which sums me up a treat......

               A humble woodman I, a plain, hardworking peasant, a simple soul who,on the whole, finds life extremely pleasant.
               
                I envy none today, no lofty rank or station,it's enough for me to have a free and healthy occupation. :D

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #55 on: April 14, 2015, 08:53:33 PM »
In an echo of the two previous posts I offer a poem that I learnt off by heart as a boy which sums me up a treat......

               A humble woodman I, a plain, hardworking peasant, a simple soul who,on the whole, finds life extremely pleasant.
               
                I envy none today, no lofty rank or station,it's enough for me to have a free and healthy occupation. :D

Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline Les Symonds

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #56 on: April 14, 2015, 09:03:58 PM »
Andy raises many points about what art is, and about who has tried to determine that. However, the OED is explicit in its definition....

The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power.

In the window of my shop I have a large alder bowl. It has two natural holes in it, each big enough for an apple to fall through. It has areas of bark inclusions that would render it impractical in use for food. It has several cracks, the largest two of which have been stitched closed with leather thong. Now lets' consider it in the light of what the OED says about art.
  • it required human creative skill to make it
  • it is visual, as is a sculpture
  • commensurate with its lack of function or utilitarian purpose, it is a piece of work produced primarily for its beauty and for the emotion it evokes.

Quite frankly, I don't care what the V&A think about it, nor am I bothered that it might never make it into a Chelsea or Bond Street Gallery. Why? Because a few days ago, two quite elderly citizens of Bala were stood at my window musing about it, and I overheard one say to the other (and I paraphrase, here) 'Isn't it great to see a lovely piece of wood made into something, just because it looks nice'. Now I would never have expected that response from that person, and I must admit that I was delighted, moved, proud and really pleased that my work had provoked that response.

I'm not aiming to make a living producing turned wooden items purely as art - I'm not naive enough to believe that at my time of life I could ever achieve that. I will simply get one hell of a buzz if just one in ten of my pieces is viewed as art by people who matter to me, people who come to my gallery/shop and enthuse over something that I have made. That's not just 'Good enough' for me, that's bloody wonderful. As for the other nine out of ten pieces that I make....they can be functional (they won't be mundane) and that's also OK.

Les
Education is important, but wood turning is importanter.

Offline GBF

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #57 on: April 14, 2015, 09:27:57 PM »
Today I have driven over two hundred miles topping up galleries and I still have three more to do.
Just thought you would like to know. ;D ;D ;D

Regards George
The man that never made a mistake never made anything

Offline Graham

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2015, 08:57:44 AM »
It is quite simple really ( just like me )
Later this year, on the 14th of August to be precise, turned wooden objects will come into fashion and stay in fashion for the next 100 years. Prices will automatically triple.

Do you still care what it is called ?
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?

Offline TONY MALIN

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Re: What price art?
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2015, 09:57:24 AM »
No