Tuition or no tuition.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I did have someone come to me for lessons after being to somebody else for lessons.  So I popped a piece of wood on the lathe and told him to turn it round and then we would make a start (I can't remember what we were making) he looked at me horrified and said that although he had had 5 or so lessons he had never actually turned apiece of wood!! As George said there are good experiences and........

[bodrighywood]

I did have someone come to me for lessons after being to somebody else for lessons.  So I popped a piece of wood on the lathe and told him to turn it round and then we would make a start (I can't remember what we were making) he looked at me horrified and said that although he had had 5 or so lessons he had never actually turned apiece of wood!! As George said there are good experiences and........

Someone ripped him off there. I always make sure that anyone who comes to me for tuition goes away with something they have made no matter what their experience. Personally I don't believe that wood turning, or any other craft can be learned other than by a hands on approach. I would love to have tuition in a number of areas in which I am totally ignorant but anyone worth their salt has to charge sensible charges which quite honestly I cannot afford. 

Pete

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

We could always do a skill swap Pete.

[GBF]

In my opinion the cost of good woodturning tuition compared to what most self employed tradesmen charge is very good value.
In my workshop I have approx £20,000  00 of equipment and I charge £120  00 a day for one to one or £180  00 a day two to one including a good lunch and this is about average.
I am a time served bricklayer and as a bricklayer I could earn £1000  00 per week and would need about £100  00 worth of tools.
At the end of last year because I had a knee injury I employed a gardener for two days to sort out some work I could not manage and he charged £160  00 a day.


Regards George

[Mark Sanger]

Hi George

Tuition at £120 a day is good value as you say compared to other trades. Of course when people need a plumber, electrician, bricklayer they need them,!! people generally don't need to do woodturning as it is a hobby, so some see the fee's  high just to learn to spin wood. 

Although from personal experience from how busy we both are with tuition there are still a lot of people out there willing to pay this and much more. The craft center I am resident tutor at has a waiting list, so much so that had to add extra courses through the year, must be my charm  they also run courses from glass making/lamp work to embroidery, jewelry and he list goes on, so I see there is a larger desire for people to learn and keep the older crafts alive which appears to be a growing trend.

Happy days 

[TONY MALIN]

I remember a demo by Ray Jones. He started by turning a spindle about 18" long which contained all the elements. I made a full size drawing and we used it as an exercise at our club.

[bodrighywood]

I agree that the general cost charged for tuition is excellent value. I also agree that tuition is something to be aimed at no matter what level you are at. As my grandmother used to say 'the day you stop learning is the day you're dead.' If I were financially able I would love (for example) to spend time learning the various colouring techniques or threading. Tried both and so far the skill has evaded me. Johns idea of a skill swap is perhaps an answer though what on earth I could teach you John I don't know LOL.

Pete

[GBF]

You could teach him how to be careful with money Pete you are good at that.LOL

Regards George

[Richard Findley]

It's funny because if you were to ask me, I'd tell you I was a self taught turner, and I mostly am from books, DVDs, demos and many hours spent at the lathe  but, in my early days I had a day with John Berkeley and spent a day playing with boxes, threads and bone work. I have also spent a lot of time with Les Thorne, Gary Rance and Stuart Mortimer on a less formal basis. I am lucky enough to call all of these people friends and I would possibly go so far as to say Gary is something of a mentor, even if he doesn't realise it!

I think it's less about tuition as such, and more about having a thirst for knowledge, so while I don't have formal tuition these days (that's not to say I won't, just I don't have any plans at the moment), I do still attend demos, seminars and read books and magazines on the subject. As you progress there is less new information to learn but by watching demos and reading magazines etc, every so often a little gem will appear which can be hugely helpful.

Cheers

Richard

[ALAN THOMAS RPT]

George made a point in passing about what students make on a course. If the student is a beginner and you only have 1 day, is the object of a course to have the student leave with as many items as possible ( and have little understanding of how they were made ) or is it better to concentrate on teaching how the tools are used and make only 1 or 2 items but have better understanding of turning. I would like to hear what others who teaching turning would expect to be made on a typical 1 day beginners course.
( I recently had a guy turn up for a 1 day course with me and he wanted to turn a 6kg goldfield burr he had brought which in profile looked like a long handled ladle. He had absolutely no experience of turning and he wasn't happy when I refused, even after I explained about the dangers of dealing with such a piece.).     

[Mark Sanger]

Alan raises good points and I know that on the courses I run with George and my own, all are taught safe correct tool use and make only one item in a day normally a bowl as very few ask for spindle turning lessons. It is far more important to learn the correct methods than rushing just to get poorly made projects under the belt.

This has to be offset though by the desire of the students excitement of wanting to produce everything they see in a magazine before they can run. I use to teach Karate to children and adults, the turn over in such disciplines is high as people want to watch a Bruce Lee movie and be given a Black belt.

Very much like Alan's example of the burr.

I fear at times it is the same with craft disciplines. When I am asked how to get good with a tool my advise is to practice each cut a thousand times correctly, and once they think they have got it practice it another thousand times, finally a further thousand cuts should be practiced just to make sure.

I still do this now, spend half an hour most days practicing one part of my specific turning techniques over and over. This of course is of no use if people just practice a poor technique.

[GBF]

Several months ago I was contacted by a student who had a three day course with a well known company and was very disappointed.
Of course he should have told them that he was not satisfied,
He booked two days with me and I told him to bring with him the stuff he had made on his course.
He showed me three things a bowl approx 6" x 2" a bud vase approx 8" high and a mushroom about 4" high I could not believe what I was seeing these three things represented three days work and they were not even well made.The form on all three was poor and the bottoms were not finished on any of them.
It seems there was six students and one tutor and I know the tutor very well and I know he is a first class very experienced turner and teacher.
So all I can put it down to is the tutor just did not have the time required to give the students the time needed.
This student was all for giving up but had spent a lot of money on equipment and was going to give it one last chance.
On the first day with me he made a bowl about 11" and on the second day I gave him the choice of making another bowl to reinforce what he had learned the day before or do some spindle turning.He opted for doing a second day of bowl turning and made two very respectable bowls.
This meant he went away with three very nice bowls and lots of confidence.
This is just one example of what I consider to be poor value for money and even worse the disappointment of going on a two or three day course and coming away thinking you might never be a woodturner and possibly giving up.

[bodrighywood]

Whilst I also believe that teaching safe and good tool use is essential I find that some students click straight away, others just don't get it. If possible I try and make sure that they have something that they can take with them that they are happy with as this is in itself encouraging but what they make varies on how quickly they get into it. The student I had the other day was using a skew efficiently within an hour and in fact when using a spindle gouge said he found the skew easier. That was before lunch. In the afternoon he made a bowl and was adamant that he wanted an ogee shape, had to get the curve right and saw tool marks etc for himself. This was someone who had no real experience of turning as such but had done a fair bit of flat work. Other extreme was a student who did two days with me and seemed to be unable to hear what I was saying no matter how many ways or how many time I showed him. How well and how quickly someone learns is partly down to the teacher but also depends on the student. Our jobs as tutors IMHO is to get the best out of the student and have them leave feeling confident, safe and enthusiastic.

Pete

[TWiG]

I personally have not had professional tuition of any sort, though had a few evening class type lessons with a guy who was mostly a carver but also a competent turner  ( I supplied him a lot of wood )  and learning the basics was very important  .. my main learning reference  and inspiration was Robert Chapmans book ... "turning a new approach " which I think is the best book on the subject I have seen .  I started about 20 years ago ,so before internet , and the only one who I knew of who gave lessons was Tobias Kaye , but it seemed rather expensive at the time , though in some ways now I wish I had done, but I just  enjoyed the learning process  myself , It is one thing knowing HOW to do something , than being ABLE to do something !!  By that I mean  just because an  expert  shows me how they do it does not mean to say I can !... I think it would be useful to see other turners doing there thing , and how there workshop is set up , sharpening etc , but I am quite happy with the way I do things and what I produce , obtaining  great wood and creating something special  from it is more important to me than technique and equipment  ( although they both help )   It would be great to work with some top of the range lathes etc  but then on returning home feeling limited by your own equipment could be a bit deflating .......  George .... did you seek tuition because you really wanted to learn specific things ? or wanted to improve your knowledge  / skills with the intention of becoming a full time turner / teacher ?  and who would you most like to go for tuition with ?       Also I have met a few turners who have spent a lot of money on tools lathes etc ( VB36 ) yet only make small , basic stuff , so in that context tuition is not that expensive .... Terry ..

[seventhdevil]

I personally have not had professional tuition of any sort, though had a few evening class type lessons with a guy who was mostly a carver but also a competent turner  ( I supplied him a lot of wood )  and learning the basics was very important  .. my main learning reference  and inspiration was Robert Chapmans book ... "turning a new approach " which I think is the best book on the subject I have seen .  I started about 20 years ago ,so before internet , and the only one who I knew of who gave lessons was Tobias Kaye , but it seemed rather expensive at the time , though in some ways now I wish I had done, but I just  enjoyed the learning process  myself , It is one thing knowing HOW to do something , than being ABLE to do something !!  By that I mean  just because an  expert  shows me how they do it does not mean to say I can !... I think it would be useful to see other turners doing there thing , and how there workshop is set up , sharpening etc , but I am quite happy with the way I do things and what I produce , obtaining  great wood and creating something special  from it is more important to me than technique and equipment  ( although they both help )   It would be great to work with some top of the range lathes etc  but then on returning home feeling limited by your own equipment could be a bit deflating .......  George .... did you seek tuition because you really wanted to learn specific things ? or wanted to improve your knowledge  / skills with the intention of becoming a full time turner / teacher ?  and who would you most like to go for tuition with ?       Also I have met a few turners who have spent a lot of money on tools lathes etc ( VB36 ) yet only make small , basic stuff , so in that context tuition is not that expensive .... Terry ..

the internet is 24 years old.