Must be the weather!

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Steve I used to earn my living as you do now but as the recession took hold the joinery and kitchen companies that I contracted to started to suffer, quite a few went under and will probably never start up again. Members of the public were still having new kitchens fitted but without the fancy round corners so they made a saving on costs, mine as it happens.The building contractors were still supplying stairs but with square newels and balusters so once again my skills were not needed. Even one of the furniture designers that used me started to use a company "up north" who had a copy machine big enough to mass produce (but I notice that they still advertise as hand made).
     So to keep eating I have started to encroach on the art and craft markets along with giving lessons and demonstrations, which I must admit to quite enjoying. George you are quite right about the tax, you never know who you are giving lessons to but I firmly believe that we all ought to pay our share anyway( just that I think I am paying someone else's too).
    Of course the other thing we have to contend with are cheap imports, I know of a shop that sells 12" bowls, hand carved from what looks like rubber wood or similar for £8 each. I can't compete with that.

[ALAN THOMAS RPT]

Hi Steve
It is a perpetual arguement and I don't know what the answer is. You are right about competing with hobby turners, so I don't do it and I don't want to fight anyone about it. I have seen some fantastic work produced by non pro's and while they may be promoting the craft and getting an income to support their hobby, it frustates me when I think of how much more value would be brought to woodturning if they thought a little more about it. I also agree with you about hobbyists helping to keep the craft alive and there must be some turners out there under the age of 40 although I haven't seen many. Production turning in this neck of the woods (Cornwall ) died a death several years ago ( although I still get requests from time to time most of my income comes from teaching,demonstrations and the gallery market) and I don't know of any full time professional turners doing it down here any more.George also brought up a valid point about another cost, the tax man. How many hobby turners who sell their work declare their earnings?
John, I approached a posh end supermarket ( who supposedly support local economies ) a while ago about selling salad bowls in my local store after seeing the imported rubberwood stave constructed rubbish on sale there. After taking some samples and talking to the manager ( who to be fair was quite enthusiastic ) the head office couldn't even be bothered to reply to me.      

[TWiG]

Do hobby turners really compete much for sales , especially in galleries ?   also it should be remembered that hobby turners are the ones who make up the majority of clubs , who in turn pay for pros to demonstrate at , also pay for tuition , buy most of equipment sold by suppliers , buy mags dvd's etc produced by pro's so in fact probably contribute more than would first appear to be the case !!!  ... Terry  ..  ( just part of my view on the topic )

[Graham]

Do hobby turners really compete much for sales , especially in galleries ?   also it should be remembered that hobby turners are the ones who make up the majority of clubs , who in turn pay for pros to demonstrate at , also pay for tuition , buy most of equipment sold by suppliers , buy mags dvd's etc produced by pro's so in fact probably contribute more than would first appear to be the case !!!  ... Terry  ..  ( just part of my view on the topic )

What ?
You mean us hobby turners may not be second class citizens after all ?

[bodrighywood]

In galleries hobby turners tend to be selling at about the same prices as the pro in my experience. The problem arises at shows or the smaller sales where you see things for sale at cost at best. I( don't think anyone is saying that Graham LOL. Personally I reckon that some of the best turners around are the hobby turners, they produce some incredible work but the bone of contention is perhaps when you see a bowl for sale for say £10  e.g. the cost of the wood at best. Personally I stopped doing the smaller fairs and sales as a rule as I just can't compete. Larger multi day fairs, online sales and galleries are my main outlets as there I am competing with other full time crafts people who have to charge sensible prices in order to put food on the table. It is an ongoing argument that probably won't go away. The best argument against it is as someone said, it undermines the public impression of the value of craft work in general. It isn't just wood turning but across the board with all craft / art work.

Pete

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Terry you are quite right about the tools etc. I can remember ground files as scrapers and using millwrights tools as that was what we could get hold of. Once the hobby market really took off manufacturers started making specific tools at a price we could afford..and they made chucks for us too!! Prior to that we would turn using something like a hole saw without any teeth that you hammered your wood into. Either that or shop made cones for production spindle turning or if we had loads to do we would make a drum, I think we used to call it a Tambour. It would take anything up to a dozen spindle blanks and as it rotated you could turn one face of 12 and then turn each spindle in the drum through 45 degrees and turn the next dozen faces and so on. It all seems a bit old hat now but I still do jam chucking to reverse my bowls, I just use the disc held in the modern chuck is all.
        I am sure that some of the old methods would be frowned upon these days which in some cases is dead right as they were dangerous. There was something romantic about emerging into the sunlight from a poorly lit workshop covered in dust and shavings from head to foot and sitting in the yard soaking up the sun drinking strong sweet tea and puffing on a rollup. Of course we all thought it was the dust that was making us cough not the fags and I don't miss either now!!

[TWiG]

Graham you certainly are not a second rate citizen , I do not know what your turning is like , but you certainly are developing in to a first rate comedian !!  I really like your witty comments on these threads keep it up , but please do not see this compliment as encouragement to over do it !  ..Terry ...

[Graham]

Graham you certainly are not a second rate citizen , I do not know what your turning is like , but you certainly are developing in to a first rate comedian !!  I really like your witty comments on these threads keep it up , but please do not see this compliment as encouragement to over do it !  ..Terry ...

I will endeavour to restrain myself Terry.

[Mark Sanger]

Hobby, Pro here it goes again

For me the title matters not, the quality of work does. We all started at the beginning, at least I did and am not sure of any turner that was up and running by being born with a gouge in their posterior. 

So we all made the same mistakes and probably all produced pieces that we would rather not remember but that is the fun of it.

As Terry has said one aspect of earning is from demos, tools, teaching etc etc and indeed it is those starting out in turning or the ones that want to partake in a particular discipline that opt for tuition.

Certainly my tuition has grown over the years and is a good income, the demo's while they were very busy I have found it is more profitable for me to stay in the workshop so have cut back drastically but still enjoy several at shows and locally.

Personally I have not found hobby turners to be in any form of competition with me, there are many that sell in the galleries that I do but all the work is of a high standard or it would not be there.

All the work is different as the gallery owners take a wide variety of styles so not to clash, better for them and better for the makers.

Competition if there is any is a good thing as it drives up standards and if full time turners find it difficult to compete then best pull your socks up    come up with some new work or make it much more efficiently than other people.

Personally I think we all work well together, and dare I say it a lot of Pro's are semi retired-retired anyway so are they really pro, ?? But the badge does look nice 

[GBF]

Now you have brought up another question Mark.
What is a Pro is it somebody who earns all of their money from Woodturning or can it be somebody who earns part of their money from woodturning and has other income as well.Possibly pensions investment property.
Does it follow that a Pro produces high quality work.

Regards George

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

George it should follow that pro's produce high quality work or work of acceptable quality according to the chosen finish. For example I do not polish stair spindles that are going to be painted, they get sanded with 180G paper and the rest is up to the contractor as far as I am concerned.
   It is interesting to see when you Google the definition of the word professional that it comes up with    "white-collar, executive, non-manual
"people in professional occupations" or    "paid, salaried, non-amateur, full-time"so the first 3 let me out straight away although as a sole trader I could be the executive of my business ,so it comes down to paid (sometimes) salaried (never) non-amateur(I hate the term amateur) and full time which I am. So perhaps the RPT should change its name to Register of full time Turners?

[GBF]

Hi John.
So are you saying a pro turner should be working a 40 hour week for instance .Or can somebody who has another income only work part time and still be a Pro?
You say full time but what is full time?
And don't forget you don't have to be a member of the RPT to be a full time Pro


Regards George

[Mark Sanger]

Pro or hobby or leisure or full time or part time, they are just labels and mean little to me, you do not have to turn full time to produce excellent work.  and you don;t have to earn money from it either, you may produce excellent work purely for pleasure or to give away, so it does not that if you do not earn money from it your work is any less valid than anyone else's. Just my thoughts, don't me I am right 

[Richard Findley]

This topic is such a mine field that even the RPT are changing their stand point on what they consider 'Professional'.

At one time it was a rather vague 'majority of your earnings need to be from turning' but as there are now less and less full time professionals it seemed like a slightly outdated concept. They are now focusing on the quality of the work and having a 'professional outlook' which means that the way RPTs do business should be proffessional, things like websites, business cards, letter heads, how they present themselves and deal with the public etc. There is also a focus on encouraging and supporting members to charge proper prices and to generally promote themselves and turning in a good way. Also making sure members carry appropriate insurances and are registered with HMRC.

As you see, it is quite a complex issue. I think we can all agree though that the quality of the work is key, rather than the label.

Richard

[farmerphil]

I agree that this is a complex issue partly because there is such wide diversity amongst both professional turners and amateurs.
I do sympathise with professional turners and in particular production turners striving to make ends meet as we all do and you are not going to change the market- if somebody want s to sell stuff cheaply you cannot stop them as Mark suggests.
The negativity of some RPTs in this thread towards hobbyists I can understand but would suggest not becoming too harsh as although on this forum more info and ideas can be got by beginners/amateurs there is two way traffic. If RPTs prefer exclusivity then have a closed forum section for yourselves but would it would enhance your skills and knowledge any better?

Steve: if you envy those who do "arty" style turning but don't have the time then why not put a little bit of time aside to follow your desire you might end up with a higher profit margin than from light pulls. There are a lot of people envious of your skills and your recent post/repost demonstrates your capability. But when you get your creative juices going please share some of your work on the forum!

Nice weather

Phil