Author Topic: Dust!  (Read 7335 times)

Offline Katchin

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Dust!
« on: June 21, 2011, 08:00:56 PM »
Ok, my mother asked me to renovate a fruit bowl for her, its was terribly stained, and the finish was bad, the grain was only visible in a few areas. Unfortunately, I forgot to photo the 'before', but here is the after.

I had to power sand it, and use the sorby sandmaster, both of which produced vast quantities of dust. Now I do not have any extraction whatsoever, nor do I have a respirator, so my question is, just how dangerous is this? I use http://www.axminster.co.uk/professional-fold-flat-respirators-prod797689/ , fold flat respirators only.

I would use extraction if I could afford it, and had room for it, but I don't right now. Am I being silly turning wood without?

« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 08:05:18 PM by Katchin »
John Simon Lawrenson

Offline Philip Greenwood

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 08:45:59 PM »
Hi

The main question must be do you keep your mask on until you leave the workshop, if you take the mask off when you have finished sanding but stop in the workshop the dust will still be in the air for hours and you will be breathing this dust in, this is the worst sort of dust, the dust you cant see.

Dust in my mind is very dangerous and must be addressed. You may not have any problems for year but by then its too late to rectify.

Pleases wear your mask all the time until you can afford extraction. I use 2 air filters in my workshop one above my lathe and a second in the workshop, along with a drum type extractor which is running all the time along with the air filters, all are 0.5 micons.

Philip
« Last Edit: June 21, 2011, 09:05:24 PM by Philip Greenwood »

theblindwoodturner

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 09:01:31 PM »
Hi.

I hope I might be able to help on this one. Dave atkins on the list may also agree with me.

The main issue with dust is the type of dust generated and also it's risks. There's nuisance dust above 2 micron and carsonagenic dusts which are hazardous to your health.

Carsenagenic dusts can be generated from any form of wood or when chemical sanding, etc is used. With this, each form of dust if inhaled can cause lung damage, etc and in some cases lung and respiratory diseases, etc.

How to tackle  dust in a workshop situation falls to two groups. General waste and fine particulate dusts such as sanding and fine finishing work etc.

General waste including chippings, shavings, etc would be managed with  a large workshop extractor rig such as units made by scheppach, startrite, record and others. These are good for shifting bulk waste and a degree of dust upto 1.5 micron size. Machines can also be fitted with fine filter cartridges which handle upto 0.5 micron. These are good for most things.

My experience of this is from some years of fine finish work, advice from the HSE and also from Numatic International who specialise in industrial vacuum units, etc.

Sanding in this case is classed as fine particulate dusts which as mentioned above are carsenagenic dusts.

The best thing to consider if you are doing this all the time is to invest in a hazardous dust vac. Ideally a type M or H if you're in a very dusty environment.

Check out Numatic hazardous dust vacs including the HZDQ750 and 900-2 series.

hope I can help on this. I may have missed a few things out, etc.

The other thing I do seriously advise is respiratory protection. With dusts like this, normal masks like you have mentioned, only help to a degree. There are other options available which I highly advise considering. A twin filter manual respirator. these are ideal and I use one myself, there's also air fed and battery operated air shields like the units from trend and JSP.

lew

Offline Katchin

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 09:36:32 PM »
cheers, i do wear my mask all the time in the workshop, i just do not think it does much good, I still feel like I have smoked 30 cigs after I comme out of the workshop, and it takes 24 hours to go away.
John Simon Lawrenson

Offline Philip Greenwood

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 09:51:24 PM »
I think you have answered your question regarding dust. If you feel that bad now you must act now, the future of your health depends on what actions you take now.

OK a Trend respirator is around £183 but what price is that compared with your health. Below is a link to the Trend airshield.

http://snaintonwoodworking.com/store/airshield-pro-p-173.html


Philip

Offline Dave Atkinson

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2011, 06:41:39 PM »
Hello John

Dust protection is a must.  I know that the kit is expensive but is it very important.  However, if like most of us you are going to have to save up, there are cheaper masks on the market that are a step up from the throw away masks. 

Go to Axminster's site and enter dust masks in the search line and you will see some  like the 3M 7500 at around £20 - I had one before I saved up for my airshield - it worked well.  These will help enormously until you have got enough for something the trend or the racal powercap.

Also (dare I say it) practice your tool technique so you get a better finish off the tool so the amount of sanding is reduced.

You could also consider something like and Xpelair in the window if your workshop in front of the lathe - they all help.

Cheers Dave

theblindwoodturner

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 08:00:14 PM »
Hi dave.

the standard Xpelair fans aren't rated for woodworking shops or turning environments as they don't qualify under the IP rating suited for fine dusts, etc. If air circulation in the workshop is needed and is recommended, I'd recommend at least a 10in axial fan which is installed through the wall with an outlet grill and baffle. installed with a variable speed controller, this will allow fresh air to be drawn in to give the user a more comfortable time. I'm about to install 2 of these units in the workshop fairly soon. 1 drawing air in and the other sending air out with a fine dust chute to a collector.

I mention IP reference. this is to cover suitability of the motor, bearings and bushings against water and dust, etc. usually a suitable config is about an iP65 or 67 standard. depending on needs and environmental conditions.

lew

Offline Dave Atkinson

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 08:44:41 PM »
Hi Lew

I wouldn't argue with you but I've seen John's working area and I don't think the major works you suggest are practical for him.  I mentioned an xpelair purely as a means of extracting some of the dust.  Over time it will of course get bunged up but by then I hope John will have a proper respirator.  Opening the window and the door also help - but possibly only in summer!

My suggestions are not to be taken as the definitive view on dust extraction etc etc.  They are purely what I hope is a sensible suggestion to get around a problem in the short term.  In the longer term, some sort of air filtration such as a Microlene, maybe something like a Camvac and a respirator are all things to consider.  However, for many hobby turners these are too expensive when you've just started and a lower cost option is required.

It's all about assessing the risk and taking sensible precautions.

Cheers Dave
 

theblindwoodturner

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2011, 09:17:33 PM »
hey dave.

sounds cool to me.

sorry, didn't mean to come across that way. a tiring day which nearly ended me up in hospital lol. oh well. bloomin gerbils and cable management.

Xpelair aren't a bad unit.

I think john could benefit from one of those floor standing air conditioner units with a duct out of the window. it would help purify the air and keep it cool when he needs it.

That's the thing about getting a working environment right, especially when it comes to safety. I'm in the process of the last stages of the workshop refit and now need to consider upgrading the health and safety side of things. visible door step markings, safety signs, etc for students, customers and guests, etc. so that's the next challenge lol.

Some time ago, I went through that mine field of dust extraction and management and by heck, it nearly drove me to having a fight with a bin bag full of chippings.

The lathe is one of the most tricky machines to do dust management with and I have to admit, the new lathe will have a mod fitted at some point to feature a follower with the hose rig for direct dust collection.

lew

Offline Philip Greenwood

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 10:07:31 PM »
hey dave.


I think john could benefit from one of those floor standing air conditioner units with a duct out of the window. it would help purify the air and keep it cool when he needs it.


If useing this as an  extractor the dust would be drawn over the cooling coil and in time cause this to become blocked, this could cause the unit to overheat causeing a fire.

Philip

theblindwoodturner

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 10:24:31 PM »
good point there.

sorry I was thinking more on the commercial line of things. my father was a HVAC specialist so I picked up on the business from him. however normal floor standing conditioners go a bit over my head lol. sorry about that little blooper.

take 216

lew

Dave Wilcox

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2011, 03:13:33 PM »
Hi Katchin
I suffer terribly with dust and use a lot of extraction to help prevent or remove as much as possible. All the above is sound advice, especially leaving the workshop before removal of the mask and smock. If you are in any doubt about the value of a purchase of protection you will find it well worth the money if you have a look at some of the side effects I have listed here: http://dave-wilcox.com/Woodturning/toxics.aspx. If that doesn't convince you nothing will. Oh and don't scratch an itch on the family jewels either  ;D

Ryan Davenport AWGB

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2014, 10:48:30 AM »
Can everyone also please remember dust in also explosive.
The hazardous forms of wood that are most likely to cause health risks are:
Wood dust;
Sap, latex or lichens associated with wood.
It's bark.

Skin:
Irritation can, in some species of wood, lead to nettle rashes or dermatitis. These effects, from direct contact or cross-contamination to other parts of the body by hand, tend to appear on the forearm, back of the hands, the face (particularly eyelids), neck, scalp and yes genitals  :'(.   On average they take up to 15 days to develop.

Respiratory and allied effects:
NOSE:
Wood especially inhalation of fine dust, can have many effects on the respiratory tract, including:
Rhinitis (runny nose)
Violent sneezing
Blocked nose
Nose bleeds
Nasal cancer (a recognised industrial disease)

LUNGS:
Asthma
Impairment of lung function
Extrinsic allergic alveolitis (a disease with "flu-like" symptoms which can cause progressive lung damage) e.g. When using western red cedar or iroko.

EYES:
Soreness
Watering
Conjunctivitis

WHOLE BODY:
Inhalation of some wood dusts can have general (whole body) effects, e.g. South African boxwood. Many effects have been described including headache, thirst, nausea, visual disturbance, drowsiness , anaemia and hepatitis.

OTHER NOTEWORTHY :
Some studies point to very rare adverse health effects, e.g. On germ cells (sperm), and disorders of the lymph system (Hodgkin's lymphoma)

PRECAUTIONS:
1) find out if the timbers you use have known ill-health effects
2) consider substituting more harmful toxic woods with less harmful ones
3) use effective local exhaust ventilation (LEV) to control exposure to wood dust at source.
4) use suitable respiratory protective equipment (RPE)
5) Use suitable protective clothing and gloves (where appropriate) to protect exposure from skin. This clothing should be designed so that dust does not become trapped between your clothing and skin.
6) make sure your LEV and PPE is properly maintained and cleaned methodically.
7) make sure you have good personal hygiene and wash hands before breaks and after work.
8) use after-work conditioning creams to help prevent dermatitis.

Hope this is of some help, I also have a list of more common toxic woods and a list of the reported adverse effects that each one has if anyone needs it or would find it helpful.
Take care.
Happy Turning

Offline woodndesign

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2014, 07:14:09 PM »
I think you have answered your question regarding dust. If you feel that bad now you must act now, the future of your health depends on what actions you take now.

OK a Trend respirator is around £183 but what price is that compared with your health. Below is a link to the Trend airshield.

http://snaintonwoodworking.com/store/airshield-pro-p-173.html


Philip

Direct link .. http://www.snaintonwoodworking.com/index.php/accessories/safety-dust-extraction/trend.html ..
"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times,"  By Dickens ''''

Offline Graham

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Re: Dust!
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2014, 05:42:15 PM »
You can recover from any overspend. Dust in the lungs is a one way trip.
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?