Author Topic: Demonstrators  (Read 40494 times)

andersonec

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2014, 07:42:22 PM »
I think you should bear in mind the following -

The demonstrator probably won't have any control over what is recorded and as such, they are putting themselves at risk if the recording lacks vital details or warnings due to editing.
The demonstrator is only being paid for a "live" demonstration. I don't think it would be unreasonable for a demonstrator to request an additional fee for a recorded demo.
The copyright would reside with the club not the demonstrator so they would potentially lose revenue on future recordings
The video could be used in place of future demonstrations, reducing the potential earnings of demonstrators.

I don't think this is something for the AWGB to make a ruling on. It should be up to each individual club to set their own policy.


Paul, A club cannot make it's own policy when each demonstrator has differing ideas on the subject.

Should the demonstrator require an extra payment for being filmed then I think this is something which must be decided by the governing body then it can be rolled out country wide and the clubs will have to cough up for the privilege. I.E. Clubs may video demonstrators for the sole use if it's members to try and emulate the demonstrated article but the demonstrator will require an extra payment for any recording which is made.

I certainly cannot imagine any club sitting around watching a video of a previous demo, why should they want to do that?

Andy

Offline Richard Findley

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2014, 09:50:12 PM »
As a professional turner and demonstrator, I thought id add my bit.

A hand out would be quite possible to make, but it would need to basically be like a magazine article. Step by step instructions with photos. That's a lot of extra work for very little gain on the part of the demonstrator. If I was to do that I would want to do them professionally, which actually is quite expensive. I personally also write for the magazine so, much of what I demo and write about supports each other.

That said, I continually invite people to ask questions (do they ever? - Very rarely) I also allow people to photograph what I'm doing, either for their own use or for the club magazines. I don't even mind clubs videoing me, as long as it doesn't end up on the internet.

Without me actually going to each club members workshop and giving one to one, what more can I do? I hope you don't think I'm being rude, but if you struggle to remember what happens, you should take photos of each stage of the demo? I know you'd be welcome to at any of mine.

Richard
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Offline woodndesign

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2014, 11:43:43 PM »

Not to go off subject, I notice it mentioned wasn't a Demonstration in fact Teaching Members.

There was a thread which sadly went missing that raised the very question, when does a Demonstration become a Lesson and the Demonstrator a Teacher. As Demonstrator/Demonstration is it in the fact of only imparting small amounts of information to a large audience in a short time frame ... in solely to out line the use of a tool and a cut or the mounting and start of a piece and not finish, normally in that 'you can't see the hollowing' going on in the form .. this will take to long .. need I show you sanding .. to apply a finish.

A Demonstration then may not be shown in it's entirety to even warrant videoing, and I've been in a few Clubs where notes and pictures have been taken and these have gone into the News Letter, which often now are on the Club Website ... where does the Club stand then with Demonstrator X as it's then Public.

David
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Offline Paul Hannaby

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2014, 02:04:25 AM »
I think you should bear in mind the following -

The demonstrator probably won't have any control over what is recorded and as such, they are putting themselves at risk if the recording lacks vital details or warnings due to editing.
The demonstrator is only being paid for a "live" demonstration. I don't think it would be unreasonable for a demonstrator to request an additional fee for a recorded demo.
The copyright would reside with the club not the demonstrator so they would potentially lose revenue on future recordings
The video could be used in place of future demonstrations, reducing the potential earnings of demonstrators.

I don't think this is something for the AWGB to make a ruling on. It should be up to each individual club to set their own policy.


Paul, A club cannot make it's own policy when each demonstrator has differing ideas on the subject.

Should the demonstrator require an extra payment for being filmed then I think this is something which must be decided by the governing body then it can be rolled out country wide and the clubs will have to cough up for the privilege. I.E. Clubs may video demonstrators for the sole use if it's members to try and emulate the demonstrated article but the demonstrator will require an extra payment for any recording which is made.

I certainly cannot imagine any club sitting around watching a video of a previous demo, why should they want to do that?

Andy
Andy, The club must make their own policy as they are the ones organising the event and hiring the demonstrator..

There is no "governing body" to decide or dictate how clubs should conduct their business.

The point I was making about the video is that the club could show it when they wanted, to whoever they wanted and could even potentially sell or hire out copies. None of which would financially benefit the demonstrator.

Personally, I don't think it's a good idea for all the reasons stated.

Offline Graham

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2014, 08:02:25 AM »
On the other hand...... If the club could video the presentation and then hire it out to any club members or friends who missed it , that could put more money into the club kitty thus enabling them to hire demonstrators more often ?
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?

Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2014, 08:23:13 PM »
On the other hand...... If the club could video the presentation and then hire it out to any club members or friends who missed it , that could put more money into the club kitty thus enabling them to hire demonstrators more often ?
Graham, realistically the clubs would not take enough money on the hire of these to make a difference to club funds.
   I would like to share something with you.  I did a demo last night in north Devon so let's use that as an example. It took an hour to prepare the timber and another hour to ensure all the chisels were sharp and I had everything needed for the demo and half an hour to load the car. I need to prepare some food and a drink for the journey home as it will be quite late. A trip to Tesco's for fuel and I am on  my way. So far I have worked for this demo for nearly 3 hours. The venue is 2 1/2 hours away and travelling time is not paid by the club. A stop near the venue for an evening meal, on this occasion a McDonald's was all I could find. The demo lasts from 7 -10 pm admittedly with a free cup of coffee and a biscuit halfway through. On completing my demo I always ask if there are any questions and then answer them and when there are no more questions the demo ends but I can guarantee that when I am packing up and trying to get on the road 2 or 3 people come up and ask questions. So anyway I pack the car, get on the road in the middle of town with no signposts so call in to a garage for directions and then finally get going on the way home. 2 1/2 hours later at nearly 1 0'clock in the morning I get home, it takes a few minutes to unload the car into the hallway, I will take it all down the workshop when I get up. By the time I get into bed I have done a 13 hour day and driven the best part of 250 miles. Apart from fuel costs the whole demo cost the club £80. If they want to video me doing the demo don't you think it is only fair that I get paid for appearing in it? Or should I work out my prices so that all of the hours that I put in for the demo are paid for? So let's say 12 hours (I don't expect to be paid for breaks) at £20 per hour. So that comes out at a more respectable £240 plus travel expenses ,and for that money you can video me.

Offline John D Smith

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2014, 08:36:00 PM »
Hi John,
             A very good point you make our Club has numerous DVDs that we hire out to members at 50p per month these are mostly all instructional and by

Professionals from around the world this probably brings in about £25 per year.

Also people think the demonstrator just arrives out of the blue most never think about the preparation time etc.I think Demonstrators on the whole do an

excellent job
                     Regards John

 
John Smith

Offline Graham

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2014, 09:50:59 AM »
John - I take your point about the videos but the pricing of demos etc is a whole other subject.

Please do not take this the wrong way, it is not meant as a criticism or put down but there are times when professional turners seem ( to me ) to be their own worst enemies.
The figures you quote for a demo are absurd. The hours involved are probably on the conservative side but even if realistic work out to about about £6.17 per hour, less than the minimum wage and they don't even take into account wear and tear on the car and all that sort of stuff.
Next...... Private tuition. Prices vary but on average seem to work out at about £110 - £125 for a whole days individual tuition. Many seem to do it for even less, do that 5 days a week and you are earning £25K a year. OK, some would be pleased to get that but as a self employed person..... Absurd.

Some turners ( not all ) get all up tight when they see amateurs selling stuff cheap at craft fairs etc. It undervalues our worth they moan...... With the prices you all charge you do that for yourselves. What other field would you get one on one tuition for those amounts.

You were recently at Yandles for 2 days, what did they pay you ? If they could afford to pay 10 turners for an open weekend I'll bet it wasn't much.

And before you all start on about pricing yourselves out of the market......I am getting on a bit now, I can remember the screams when bread hit 50p a loaf, 'Nobody will buy it' ..... and when the mini hit £500 the end of the financial world was predicted.

Up you prices to £240 for a demo, double the price of a days tuition. Sure people will moan, they might have to cough up as much to watch you as they would spend on beer. they will get over it and might even pay more attention if they are paying proper money for it.

I am now going to hide under the table, it is made of two inch thick oak  :)
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?

Offline Graham

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2014, 10:23:17 AM »
There now, see, you have gone and got me started.
Talking of Yandles......
Old boy has a big workshop just inside the entrance. The bottom layer of sawdust on the floor must be pre ark it is so deep.
He is making high quality hand made windsor chairs. I would have been proud to have made the examples he was showing..... Apparently they were his rejects.
He was charging £350 isn for a custom made chair, enlarged to fit my fat backside, bigger wrap around arms and palm grips coz I like them that way. Solid ash, or oak, or elm and yew combo.
I ordered 2
Now I am feeling guilty. Mass produced ercol versions, brought site unseen from furniture village are dearer than that.

So you are not alone.
Regards
Graham
I have learnt the first rule of woodturning.
The internal diameter should never exceed the external width.
Nor the internal depth, the external height.
Does that make me an expert now ?

Offline Richard Findley

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2014, 10:56:58 AM »
Well said Graham. It is a problem common in craft industries. The question of which comes first - the chicken or the egg? Or which comes first - charging more or customers expecting to pay more?

One reason I have stopped doing tuition is that the usual price for teaching for a day is £120 to £150. I can make £200+ for my production work. Something of a no brainer!

The RPT are currently trying to encourage its members to charge more apropiate prices by introducing a code of conduct which all members must adhere to. Some of the points focus on pricing.

Great post Graham

Richard
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Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2014, 02:46:02 PM »
It is all well and good saying that I should be charging more but when you live where I do people are known for not paying money out. This is one of the reasons why I keep harping on about hobby turners not charging enough, if they charged more I would charge more and the members of the public (where I live ) would see the real cost of woodturning but until they do I can't. :)

Offline bodrighywood

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2014, 04:10:01 PM »
Unless all pro turners started charging higher rates increasing your cost would mean you don't get anything as few if any clubs would hire you. I charge pretty much the same as most demonstrators but was recently told by an experienced demonstrator 'Your costs are fine (a bit cheap if anything!)'

 As far as charging for work you do it is not as easy as perhaps it seems. An hourly rate (providing everything goes as planned first time) cost of materials, wear and tear on equipment and tools and your prices are going to be higher than many people are likely to pay. If you source your own materials do you charge what it would have cost to buy from a wood merchant? How much hourly rate? The pro turners like Richard (Findley) who do a lot of restoration and replication can perhaps charge a sensible rate as what they do is recognised as worth a decent hourly rate and the little of that type of work I do is indeed profitable but if you are talking abut either utilitarian or artistic work it is a nightmare. I have virtually stopped doing your basic craft fairs as whilst I get a fair number of 'Oooh I like that' comments few are willing to pay for the pieces. I do what I do because I love it and if I can make enough to live on I am happy but unless I become famous and collectable I doubt very much whether I will ever earn what some consider decent money. One thing I have come to learn however doing the larger shows is that if you price things too cheaply people will assume it isn't worth much, putting prices up can actually encourage sales. Just make sure you also have a good supply of cheaper items as well. Perhaps the RPT or AWGB should do some course on salesmanship and marketing.

Pete 
Turners don't make mistakes, they have design opportunities

Offline Richard Findley

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2014, 05:34:24 PM »
Pete

Funny you should say that, but at the next craft meeting, there are plans afoot to have a speaker on the subject of use of electronic media to benefit your business and a focus on trying to support members more in their sales and marketing.

All the best

Richard
See more of my work at www.turnersworkshop.co.uk
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Offline The Bowler Hatted Turner

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2014, 05:42:44 PM »
i'll be there for that one.

andersonec

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Re: Demonstrators
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2014, 06:37:12 PM »
On the other hand...... If the club could video the presentation and then hire it out to any club members or friends who missed it , that could put more money into the club kitty thus enabling them to hire demonstrators more often ?
Graham, realistically the clubs would not take enough money on the hire of these to make a difference to club funds.
   I would like to share something with you.  I did a demo last night in north Devon so let's use that as an example. It took an hour to prepare the timber and another hour to ensure all the chisels were sharp and I had everything needed for the demo and half an hour to load the car. I need to prepare some food and a drink for the journey home as it will be quite late. A trip to Tesco's for fuel and I am on  my way. So far I have worked for this demo for nearly 3 hours. The venue is 2 1/2 hours away and travelling time is not paid by the club. A stop near the venue for an evening meal, on this occasion a McDonald's was all I could find. The demo lasts from 7 -10 pm admittedly with a free cup of coffee and a biscuit halfway through. On completing my demo I always ask if there are any questions and then answer them and when there are no more questions the demo ends but I can guarantee that when I am packing up and trying to get on the road 2 or 3 people come up and ask questions. So anyway I pack the car, get on the road in the middle of town with no signposts so call in to a garage for directions and then finally get going on the way home. 2 1/2 hours later at nearly 1 0'clock in the morning I get home, it takes a few minutes to unload the car into the hallway, I will take it all down the workshop when I get up. By the time I get into bed I have done a 13 hour day and driven the best part of 250 miles. Apart from fuel costs the whole demo cost the club £80. If they want to video me doing the demo don't you think it is only fair that I get paid for appearing in it? Or should I work out my prices so that all of the hours that I put in for the demo are paid for? So let's say 12 hours (I don't expect to be paid for breaks) at £20 per hour. So that comes out at a more respectable £240 plus travel expenses ,and for that money you can video me.

Hi BHT.

I also think you are under pricing your club demo's, the smallest amount I have seen our club cough up is £60 and that is to a professional who is a hon. member of the club and lives only twenty minutes away, we have also paid out over two hundred  :o

I was making the same mistake with my jewellery boxes, I kept on getting told of by a few people who knew better than me, a friend re-printed my labels and put them up at £220, I still sell the same amount and I am now being told to increase them even more.

Hiring out video's to club members will not bring in a lot of money I know but neither does charging 20p for a cup of coffee but we do and I must reiterate, any videos made by the club will be only done after a signed agreement that the demonstrator allows it and that it will not be sold, lent or otherwise used for any other purpose other than the private use of club members.

Andy