Always look on the bright side.....

[Sevilla]

I totally agree with Paul Hannaby. I was not able to see the ebay page with the item but is seems obvious that the person who is selling the item is a seller and not a turner. He/she shows the item with many pictures and asks for a price. He/she is not asking an outrageous price. The buyer has all the opportunity to ask questions and compare and decide. Nothing wrong with this.
I do not pretend to be an "artist" but just a guy who likes woodworking and in particular turning, and try to sell some of his pieces at reasonable prices. Nothing wrong with this, I believe. I asked your opinion on few of the pieces I make and I thank everybody that gave me his criticism, it helped me to improve or, at least it gave me an idea of what other people think of my work.
To be honest I also believe that a lot of turnings and composition turnings that are praised as art in various forums are, in my opinion, just junk, but there are also lot of turnings that are fantastic. So to everybody his own opinion and taste.
Finally, to go back to the ebay bowl, I think that it are more outrageous the 120 mil dollars paid in a Sotheby' auction of a Munch The Scream, an overestimated painting and artist, that the 20 pounds the guy is trying to get for that bowl.
PS: I like the painting but certainly I think that if it is worth 120 mil a Modigliani should be worth at least ten times that.

[iantivenan]

In my opinion,if someone wants to make and sell something it,s entirely up to them, wether it is wood, china, clay or whatever medium is used.
If it's c##p it does'nt sell, there is a lot of helpful turners on the different websites I go on, but there seems a lot of eliteism by others as well,
for most of us it's just a hobby we enjoy.

[Frank McK]

I can't believe the way some of the professional woodturners on this forum feel so threatened by someone selling a £20 bowl. Go to craft markets around the world and you will see people selling cheap poor quality paintings, ceramics, pottery, etc. Not everyone appreciates or can afford quality and no amount of complaining about what people sell and for how much will change this.
I know it's how you guys earn your living but it's only wood turning.
Cheers Frank.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I can't believe the way some of the professional woodturners on this forum feel so threatened by someone selling a £20 bowl. Go to craft markets around the world and you will see people selling cheap poor quality paintings, ceramics, pottery, etc. Not everyone appreciates or can afford quality and no amount of complaining about what people sell and for how much will change this.
I know it's how you guys earn your living but it's only wood turning.
Cheers Frank.

Apart from a flippant comment I have not got into this debate but after reading Frank's words I thought I would. I do not know if the bowl in question was made by the seller or not,IMHO it would be better if he had not made it as this would then demonstrate that woodturning has a re-sell price, which is quite attractive. The professional turners do not feel threatened by the sale of a 20 quid bowl, some of my own bowls go for 20 quid.
   What we are trying to do is raise the standard of turnings that are being sold and therefore raise the value perceived or actual value thereby enhancing the price we can ask. This is not just to benefit professional turners but woodturning as a whole.
  Frank you said that not everyone can afford quality or appreciates it, to some extent I agree, not all of us in life can afford the best things available but I do feel that more people appreciate a quality piece than we realise.(Have you ever sat in a quality Chesterfield settee?)
 I believe there has been a change in people's attitude regarding embarrassment levels, when you first start turning the things you produce are the best in the world in your eyes and your wife's and probably your Mum's aswell but a few years down the line you cringe at the thought of someone seeing your early work as now you have improved and moved on to a higher standard(quality) of finished work. The difference between then and now is during my early years of turning I never had the nerve to think that the stuff I was making was any good and I certainly would not have considered selling it, these days the new turner will sell their very first bowl as if it is a masterpiece and I know that design is in the eye of the maker but some of the designs really are complete rubbish. Paul you say the chap did not request a critique of his work (we are not really sure it is his work)but by putting it in the public eye a comment(critique) of some level should be expected.
 Do discussions like this help to promote woodturning? yes I think it does, I think those looking in from outside of the AWGB aswell as members can see that we are capable of discussing good and bad points of all aspects of turning, the fact that woodturning has been mentioned in the same sentence as Sotheby's,Modigliani and The Scream should demonstrate how far the craft has come in the last few years probably thanks to turners everywhere getting hot under the collar about various comments.

[GBF]

I could not have put it better myself John.

Regards George

[Les Symonds]

I could not have put it better myself John.

Regards George

Nor I.....I have been holding back for a few hours to see where this was going and am delighted that we've forced a debate, if nothing else.

There never was an intention  to offer a critique about the piece in question, but as John  (BHT) says, the chap who is selling this has put it into the public eye and must surely expect some reaction. Looking further into his list of lots for sale, he clearly is an opportunist, and good luck to him.

Debate is a good thing, and this thread has opened a debate!

Les

[Bryan Milham]

I've also been sitting back on this one and watching where it's going. I did peek and the bowl in question had had no offers or bids on it when I looked, I doubt it's changed since then.

I would not offer a critique on an item unasked, and I also do not get terribly upset at the work standard of some items being offered for sale at times. This subject has been covered many time in this and I am quite sure many other forums.

Yes I can understand that some people would not sell anything they did not consider 100% the best they could make, while others, especially those early in their turning development need an outlet for their produce, if only to fund their further development by allowing them to purchase more timber, tools or even a major piece of machinery (for many years I did not own a bandsaw, using a bowsaw to produce my blanks).

But I would say in defence of any beginner their 100% is not the same of ours, as my 100% is not to the same standard as some other contributors to this forum.

So I'll ask at what point do we stand and look at an item and decide it worthy of a critique?

I’ve stood in many shops and looked at wooden bowls, hewn from a log by hand adze and you can see the marks still, is it wrong?, it's a method used still today in some parts of the worlds and aesthetically pleasing to some people. Eric’s ‘Craters’ shows carving marks on it, nothing wrong with that for any of us.

When do we look at the mass produced £12.99 rubberwood (other timbers available) salad bowls on the shelf in Tesco’s and other supermarkets and think ‘I could not buy the blank for that.’ Would we even consider critiquing one, even to ourselves.

Les posted some pictures recently of things he’d seen that gave him inspiration, others of us have done similar. I’m sure in a similar vein we look at flower vases, pottery, glass etc., but do we always see the form? The elegance or otherwise that has been designed into it by the artist (for one off’s) or the mould for mass produced items. Do we look to see if it has pleasing proportions (rule of thirds), if there are any badly placed changes in angular or curvature direction, all the things we talk about here. I have a small but growing collection of glass and pottery which has ‘something’ about it. Not always possible to reproduce in wood but which can act as a source of further inspiration.

I’ve sometimes said about a piece put up for critique that it has a discountenance, that there is something that pull’s against the eye, sometimes it’s wrong and uncomfortable to the (my) eye, other times it’s that part that makes the whole thing work for me.

What is pleasing to one persons eye may not be to another’s (as painting have previously been mentioned I’ll add that I hate ‘the Scream’, and consider most painting as nothing more than ‘Splodge on Canvas’).

Can you sell a crack?, Pete seems to do so very well looking at some of his galleried work, yes it has the form working for it which a beginner may not have, but would a beginner have the courage to try turn let alone sell such a piece of timber.

To someone the bowl that started this thread will be ‘just what they are looking for’, it will suit their need or décor and they will be pleased to purchase it…,

… however, if it had a name on it like Tracy Emin (who probably can’t turn that well) there would be people queuing up around the block to buy it at an awful lot more money!

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Bryan wrote "So I'll ask at what point do we stand and look at an item and decide it worthy of a critique? "
Personally I think every item no matter how good or bad is worthy of a critique, said critique should really be given to the person who made it and you should bear in mind that we all see things differently. To be fair to the person that made the bowl in question we should have a correctly done critique similar to what we would have had if one of us had made it.
Critiquing has to be done very carefully, I like to think of myself as an emerging wood artist (that make be a bit presumptuous I know)now imagine a known turner or artist critiquing  my work but not doing it very well the result of that could spell the end of my career. A critique is not an opportunity to slag off another person's work but should be done constructively if however you think the work is rubbish I for one would prefer to be told
but I would prefer to be told privately, if you really love the work I would prefer to be told publicly but told I should be so that I do not carry on making the same mistakes.
         I actually like the painting "the scream"it does "scream" out to me and I think it is an inspired piece of work but if it was critiqued I wonder what the result would be?

[bodrighywood]

I suppose the phrase beauty is in the eye of the beholder can apply to anything. If I had Tracy Emins bed I would feel embarrassed for anyone to see, certainly wouldn't pay the six figure sum it went for. If a new turner produced something like the original bowl under discussion how many of us would say 'That's wonderful' and leave it at that and how many of us would offer some constructive criticism? Someone earlier mentioned elitism and no doubt there is an element of that but (don't ask me to define it) I believe that there is a difference between something that is simply not to our taste and something that is badly done. I am one of those that doesn't like The Scream but I'd love t be able to paint like that. I don't like some of the work of a few of the renowned turners but I can't fault their skill or the quality of their workmanship. Perhaps the point originally made is that the bowl in question is not what many of us would class as either quality turning or particularly well designed and yet is seen by many on EBay thus giving an impression that that is what turning is all about?

Pete

[Eric Harvey]

Hmn,my view is,people go on EBAy for cheap bargains,like the people who use pound shops,its what they can afford,when they get better off they look on higher quality sites for more expensive things they can afford with their new found wealth,its a cheap and cheerful bowl presumably made the old fashioned way on a faceplate with a felt bottom,probably by a beginner looking to sell their wares so as to afford more wood/tools and the seller here is probably a middleman for this or maybe not,but it seems he/her is making a living at it,so good luck to them if they can sell it(Iwouldn`t personally buy it though),as to bringing down standards,as others have said we all have to start from somewhere and improve as we go along(hopefully).

The remarks about carving marks showing on my piece called Craters is wrong though,it was finished to 600 grit,to get rid of all carving marks,then stippled with a 3mm burr.

[Bryan Milham]

Eric,

that was me, sorry I did not know your method of producing texture, only that it was visible on the piece, and it most certainly was not a critisism mearly a means of comparrison.

[woodndesign]

Well for all the excitement it never sold ... as before it has been re-listed at same price .. should be titled one off, as the bowl is the only piece of everything you are selling ... maybe you're finding no market for new wood bowls .. well looking like that .. should it keep going round, it's likely to find a buyer.

Also 100yrs+ Pitch Pine Planks.

Cheers  David

[burywoodturners]

I cant see what everyone is so wound up about, the seller is clearly a beginner and hopefully s/he has learned something from the lack of response to the bowl.
I suspect the turner has not heard of either the AWGB or one of the woodworking mags with a turning section.
If that was a first attempt then maybe it was not so bad. Not worth £20 perhaps, but then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Ron