Shadow of the Turning ......

[woodndesign]

Well done on getting turning out there, Pete,

It is the lack today of Schools teaching anything of Woodwork/Metalwork other than theory, then our teacher at school may not have been a turner, our's did Technical Drawing as well.

The first Local Club I found by an ad in the local paper, was Cannock Chase Turners who host an annual event on a somewhat small scale and offer the viewing public hands on tasters. This years will be .. http://www.patmac.talktalk.net/hot.html .. Lets hope to hear from more as doing the same, as it is to get publicity of wood turning and where possible to attend and if not take an active part, see it in action and come away with a piece or two ...

Many events are aim at the turner and maybe not so much on what the general public may find or know as being of interest to them, all food for thought.

Cheers   David

 

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I normally pass a comment on this subject and end up being hung,drawn and quartered so here goes again from a turner already in shreds
I find David's comment about Richard turning a Binh Pho form disturbing. And this reflects the lack of understanding between turners of differing ability. Richard is a professional turner, the difference between him and hobby turners is if he was asked to make a copy of something, even a Binh Pho style piece, he would be capable of doing so, out of professional courtesy he may choose not to make it rather than upset the design's originator, and this holds true for the vast majority of professional turners.(Myself included)
     With professional turners the answer is nearly always yes and the quality which encompasses shape,style design and finish goes without saying. Other turners however may lack the knowledge to produce an article of a certain quality, this should be attributed to ignorance(in the nicest way) caused by lack of experience. Experience is only gained by working at the object in question, in this case turning. Every piece you make should be the best piece you have ever made or you are not" gaining the knowledge".
 It is all well and good turning out a shabby piece of work and calling it rustic but it should be realised that the original rustic was very well made for it's time or a lot of work had been put into it to make it look rustic and not just badly turned.
             We all need to raise our game and seek just rewards for what we have made, would you offer a mechanic fifteen quid for 2 or 3 hours work? Try it and see how well your car runs afterwards.
           We all try to give positive feed back on this forum and I think we all want the quality of turned work in the UK to improve in quality, otherwise why are you all on this site? And I think we all want our own work to improve or be different or make a mark somehow and this is the way that it will work, and in the process those at the top,not necessarily professional turners but those producing quality work, will realise the prices that should be paid and those that aspire to be quality turners, which IMHO should be all turners, will raise their own game, even subconsciously, and so raise the overall standard again.
Rant over, I've put me head in the noose now pull it tight
Regards
John BHT

[woodndesign]

I normally pass a comment on this subject and end up being hung,drawn and quartered so here goes again from a turner already in shreds
I find David's comment about Richard turning a Binh Pho form disturbing. And this reflects the lack of understanding between turners of differing ability. Richard is a professional turner, the difference between him and hobby turners is if he was asked to make a copy of something, even a Binh Pho style piece, he would be capable of doing so, out of professional courtesy he may choose not to make it rather than upset the design's originator, and this holds true for the vast majority of professional turners.(Myself included)
     With professional turners the answer is nearly always yes and the quality which encompasses shape,style design and finish goes without saying. Other turners however may lack the knowledge to produce an article of a certain quality, this should be attributed to ignorance(in the nicest way) caused by lack of experience. Experience is only gained by working at the object in question, in this case turning. Every piece you make should be the best piece you have ever made or you are not" gaining the knowledge".
 It is all well and good turning out a shabby piece of work and calling it rustic but it should be realised that the original rustic was very well made for it's time or a lot of work had been put into it to make it look rustic and not just badly turned.
             We all need to raise our game and seek just rewards for what we have made, would you offer a mechanic fifteen quid for 2 or 3 hours work? Try it and see how well your car runs afterwards.
           We all try to give positive feed back on this forum and I think we all want the quality of turned work in the UK to improve in quality, otherwise why are you all on this site? And I think we all want our own work to improve or be different or make a mark somehow and this is the way that it will work, and in the process those at the top,not necessarily professional turners but those producing quality work, will realise the prices that should be paid and those that aspire to be quality turners, which IMHO should be all turners, will raise their own game, even subconsciously, and so raise the overall standard again.
Rant over, I've put me head in the noose now pull it tight
Regards
John BHT

John, good to hear from you and it will be safe to say, you'll live to fight another day, well a good few more..

I'd not lacked to understand the differing ability between turners, some specialize in just one or two forms. I view Richard as an exceptional turner, able to turn his hand to anything as we well read in Woodturning.

The but and Oh yes here we have it, the professional and hobbyist the great divide in are turning, it may have been so .. when I started in the 90's, it was only the shows where turning was show cased, today the advance of the internet we've more chance as we do to view exceptional work, dare I say as much from hobbyist .... Woodworks@Daventry.. highlights the skills at Club level or the AWGB Display table of this year with members work, you and myself had pieces on there ...

The greater number of members and turners are now hobbyists and with America maybe this is the whole there and how we differ from over there and view the hobby turner ...  these are the face and future of woodturning and there is a need for them, lets inspire them to improve in quality and not run them off, and yes there are the Members Development Programmes, but it's hoped advances can be made on here.

So 500+ now signed up, lets start seeing your work and yes I'm one too .. for the occasional pieces produced, very much part time as this job goes at the moment, am I a hobbyist after 17yrs .. pending Tax form reads Woodturner....    ...

Cheers   David

[Richard Findley]

Hi David

I'm not sure about this 'great divide' you speak of. I'm not sure it even exists?

By suggesting there is a great divide, it gives the impression that the world of the professional is a closed door where the secrets of turning are concealed from the amateur. In my experience the reality couldn't be further from the truth. The woodturning community is one of the most open and friendly there is. The vast majority of pros spend a great deal if their time teaching, demonstrating, writing and generally preaching woodturning. The aim of all this is to improve turning in the UK. I think everyone agrees that by doing this it benefits everyone.

The biggest difference, certainly from my point of view, is the time a hobbyist can spend on a job. For example, if I spend 3 weeks working on a masterpiece, I would need to sell it for £3000 and it would HAVE to sell. If it broke at the end or if it didn't turn out how I wanted I couldn't just put it on the fire and make another, without selling it for double.... You see the problem. As a hobbyist with another income, you can spend the time a job deserves to get it just right. That's the difference, and that's why, as you rightly say, much of the 'boundary pushing' is done by hobbyists...

Surely everyone is working toward the same goal: improving turning and QUALITY

Richard

[bodrighywood]

Hi David

I'm not sure about this 'great divide' you speak of. I'm not sure it even exists?

By suggesting there is a great divide, it gives the impression that the world of the professional is a closed door where the secrets of turning are concealed from the amateur. In my experience the reality couldn't be further from the truth. The woodturning community is one of the most open and friendly there is. The vast majority of pros spend a great deal if their time teaching, demonstrating, writing and generally preaching woodturning. The aim of all this is to improve turning in the UK. I think everyone agrees that by doing this it benefits everyone.

The biggest difference, certainly from my point of view, is the time a hobbyist can spend on a job. For example, if I spend 3 weeks working on a masterpiece, I would need to sell it for £3000 and it would HAVE to sell. If it broke at the end or if it didn't turn out how I wanted I couldn't just put it on the fire and make another, without selling it for double.... You see the problem. As a hobbyist with another income, you can spend the time a job deserves to get it just right. That's the difference, and that's why, as you rightly say, much of the 'boundary pushing' is done by hobbyists...

Surely everyone is working toward the same goal: improving turning and QUALITY

Richard

I agree 100% Richard. Some of the best turners in the world are arguably 'hobbyist' turners for the very reasons you have mentioned. The biggest gripe many of us have is more that some turners (hobbyist, professional or semi) try and sell work that is substandard or at ridiculous prices and so give Joe Public a wrong impression. I was talking to a man I know who has been in marketing most of his life the other evening and he said that the main problem was that most turners he knows undersell, they charge far to little thus demeaning the product. He picked on my work and reckoned that I ought to be selling it at at least twice the price I charge and I have what I think of as sensible prices but like most of us I tend to see the faults, the mistakes etc etc. maybe we have a low impression of what we do and that is reflected in the things we do. You are in a niche market and so can have fixed, sensible prices but the moment you make more artistic items it is a whole different ball game. At the Oak Fair on Saturday there were a number of turners of both extremes, one selling work at up to £700 a piece and another selling decent quality bowls in spalted wood for £15. if what we do is quality work we should have quality prices and a quality attitude to what we do.

Pete

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

David apologies, we all seem to have hijacked your thread again!
  On a positive note, I attended a youth training event at the weekend, the ages ranged from about 11/12 to 17/18yo. Some of the younger ones there were having their first or nearly first taste of turning and some of the older ones had experience. The enthusiasm from the young people taking part was refreshing to say the least but also the enthusiasm from the tutors,most of who I guess were on the wrong side of.....I'll leave it there!
   There was some very good quality work on show, produced by these people who are the future of the craft, and it was heartwarming to see that they were not just copying, they had new and refreshing ideas of their own, this is what we need and this is the group that will eventually change the face of woodturning, how it is seen by joe public and it will be them and others like them that will hold us up as the dinosaurs of the craft in years to come, I for one can't wait.
Exciting times for woodturning with the anticipation of things to come,new ideas and concepts. To paraphrase a well know TV presenter"woodturning doesn't get better than this!"
Regards
John BHT

[bodrighywood]

John, that is brilliant. There are people who, when exposed to wood turning, think it is great and hopefully will take it up via one of the clubs. if there is ever a chance to get involved in that sort of thing count me in. (I am also a qualified tutor if that helps LOL)

Pete

[woodndesign]

Hi David

I'm not sure about this 'great divide' you speak of. I'm not sure it even exists?

By suggesting there is a great divide, it gives the impression that the world of the professional is a closed door where the secrets of turning are concealed from the amateur. In my experience the reality couldn't be further from the truth. The woodturning community is one of the most open and friendly there is. The vast majority of pros spend a great deal if their time teaching, demonstrating, writing and generally preaching woodturning. The aim of all this is to improve turning in the UK. I think everyone agrees that by doing this it benefits everyone.

The biggest difference, certainly from my point of view, is the time a hobbyist can spend on a job. For example, if I spend 3 weeks working on a masterpiece, I would need to sell it for £3000 and it would HAVE to sell. If it broke at the end or if it didn't turn out how I wanted I couldn't just put it on the fire and make another, without selling it for double.... You see the problem. As a hobbyist with another income, you can spend the time a job deserves to get it just right. That's the difference, and that's why, as you rightly say, much of the 'boundary pushing' is done by hobbyists...

Surely everyone is working toward the same goal: improving turning and QUALITY

Richard

Hi Richard, It maybe more the biggest difference is in the time factor, then it can be a surprise as to how fast some hobbyists have become .. the word hobbyist has something about it .. is not that following J. R. R. Tolkien .. any form of woodturning is a profession and carried out as such, not only for the professional, but it's a vocation founded upon training and skills and we're all always learning something new, which yes is being passed on .. but we see few taking advantage of such on this Forum .. Why... is it few have time for the (hobbyist) novice, it's not the most active on here... the Forum is for everyone, we're all Turners.

And if it comes to pricing why not a £3000 piece, if we start asking higher price, other may value turning differently. It is we can all tend to spread work over a number weeks, it's likely to be many pieces at different stages are being done .. an who watches paint or a blank dry ..

David

[woodndesign]

David apologies, we all seem to have hijacked your thread again!
  On a positive note, I attended a youth training event at the weekend, the ages ranged from about 11/12 to 17/18yo. Some of the younger ones there were having their first or nearly first taste of turning and some of the older ones had experience. The enthusiasm from the young people taking part was refreshing to say the least but also the enthusiasm from the tutors,most of who I guess were on the wrong side of.....I'll leave it there!
   There was some very good quality work on show, produced by these people who are the future of the craft, and it was heartwarming to see that they were not just copying, they had new and refreshing ideas of their own, this is what we need and this is the group that will eventually change the face of woodturning, how it is seen by joe public and it will be them and others like them that will hold us up as the dinosaurs of the craft in years to come, I for one can't wait.
Exciting times for woodturning with the anticipation of things to come,new ideas and concepts. To paraphrase a well know TV presenter"woodturning doesn't get better than this!"
Regards
John BHT

No apologies needed John, it's all valid, and well done that man on a good job, it's happening but even fewer get to hear that it is, or are we missing it elsewhere and not seeing it on the Forum, it is the place for Turners and such activities.

When will we be viewed as in the States as a body of Turners.

David

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I think one of the ways of changing the face of turning is to find a less seemingly derogatory term for occasional turners.
The term"amateur" always conjures up a not too well made item(well if the cap fits)
The term"hobbyist" tells me that the person is not really taking it seriously.
The term "novice" says someone new to it.
I also know that the term "professional" should conjure up an image of perfection and sometimes that too can be misleading.
I wonder if the best way forward would be not to specify the ability of the turner when viewing each piece?
But then bad turning would be viewed in the same light as good turning. It is all so complicated it give s me a headache!
Regards
John BHT

[bodrighywood]

There shouldn't be any stigma about being a hobby or amateur turner ideally. To me that just means that the turner does it mainly for fun not for a living whereas professional means that they do it to put bread on the table. Neither term should be a reflection on the quality of what is made, that should be judged by individual merit. Being professional doesn't mean that each thing made is perfect either. I know that there are things that I simply don't make and pass on to someone else because they can do it much better than I can. The only time i have a gripe against hobby or amateur turners are those who sell things off at silly prices 'to cover the cost of the materials' which IMHO just undermines the public view of the value of the work.

Pete

[Richard Findley]

Hi Richard, It maybe more the biggest difference is in the time factor, then it can be a surprise as to how fast some hobbyists have become .. the word hobbyist has something about it .. is not that following J. R. R. Tolkien .. any form of woodturning is a profession and carried out as such, not only for the professional, but it's a vocation founded upon training and skills and we're all always learning something new, which yes is being passed on .. but we see few taking advantage of such on this Forum .. Why... is it few have time for the (hobbyist) novice, it's not the most active on here... the Forum is for everyone, we're all Turners.

And if it comes to pricing why not a £3000 piece, if we start asking higher price, other may value turning differently. It is we can all tend to spread work over a number weeks, it's likely to be many pieces at different stages are being done .. an who watches paint or a blank dry ..

David

Hi David

I'm not sure what's wrong with the term hobbyist? (definitely not Hobbitist  ) as an example, my hobby is cricket. I'm not bad at it actually but I'm under no illusions that anyone would pay to watch me play. I am certainly a cricket hobbyist and in no way professional. If woodturning is your hobby then by definition you are a hobbyist.

Cheers

Richard

[Bryan Milham]

I've been following this with interest, but until now have not made any attempt to add to the discussion, but...

There is an old saying that goes something like;

‘An amateur artist is one who works to support his passion,
Whereas a professional artist is one who’s wife works to support his passion.’

Of course it could be the other way around for the sexes.

But on a serious note, one of the events I attend, there is an artist (painter) who sells little more than ‘Splodge on Canvas’ at a cost that must barely cover the canvas, never mind the paint or his time. So it is not just Woodturners, it is a general thing for ‘budding artists’ to undervalue their work and from what I’ve heard of the great masters (Van Gogh included) they were all as bad.

Here is one story of mine; About 4 weeks ago I walked into a shop (not a true gallery). I spied a wooden pot so walked over and examined it, then burst out laughing. The lady proprietor asked what was so funny, so I explained that the wooden pot was made of ceramic. Yes she agreed. So I showed her some of my work, where I stain and  polish wood so it looks like ceramic, nice, but no interest!

Question:

Considering some of the things put forward as art (unmade bed, mantelpiece with bars of part used soap, pile of bricks) has any wooden art been submitted to competitions like the Turner Prize? Personally I look to turning innovators like the Mark’s (Hancock & Sanger) to step forward and show what can be achieved.

Hobbiest and Amateurs are acceptable in the world of Art, it is the level of skill that is recognised.

So until we force ourselves into the eye of the countries ‘Disposable Income Public’ as an art form we will continue to be invisible to collectors as creators of Art in the UK.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

Mark Sanger's wall springs to mind.
Regards
John BHT

[woodndesign]

....http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_artist.htm ....  Binh, as with so many others in the forefront of American Woodturning as a form, from wood are refering to themselves as Artists, do the vast amount of fellow American Woodturners view themselves as such.. How do they class one another with regards to levels of skill.

Should we be defined as Artists and or Craftsmen, how would we find a Woodturner for architectural, antique restoration and bespoke work if we did..

As with our forefathers in the past, are we now Mechanised Bodgers and still a Craft ...  if we can define ourselves singularly and above all the quality of Woodturning, not just as a Craft, but Art Form ... maybe the Galleries, Museums and Buying Public will accept Wood beyond Bowls and Kitchen Treenware... which are cheap as chips from any Store, but are they even selling.

There are those who do get work into Galleries and many others try .. but at most we present our work at best where we can personally, a Craftshow, Club event or Market stall etc...  all good, but for everyone it's to be mindful as always ... quality and price... something we can all work towards through this Forum .. if used properly .. or used at all... lets see some work, read some comments.. people.. make this Forum happen, be buzzy.

Enjoy whatever it is that we our .. Your woodturning.

Cheers   David