Shadow of the Turning ......

[woodndesign]

.....http://shadowoftheturning.com/.....http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_works.htm......

[woodndesign]

.....http://shadowoftheturning.com/.....http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_works.htm......

I left it open for reply.

No thoughts on Binh Pho's work and where he has taken it ... Love ..  Hate .. Are we the same old same old .. round n brown ..  only the few who do or can create outside the box .. The United States seem to not only be far ahead, but have different views of turned wood ..  they talk of work in Museums and not just Galleries as Art, is it we hear more about them, their work, than we do of ourselves and our own .. are we missing a point or something here.

We seem to have a great divided as to who is classed as a Turner, to what degree, who's not or of one's skills .. was it not after all with the Livery about who was, could or not able to work in the City .. picked by one's peers .... where is that seen today .. Ah .. Register of Professional Turners.

You find today that even The Woodturning Magazine is the best part American ... with articles, profile, feature and supplies, we're no longer British and far from United Kingdom.

Everyone needs to pull together as a single body, not single bodies pulled apart, as divided we fall and turning too.

[Les Symonds]

Hi Dewi....sorry for the lack of reply, which I assure you was born out of a lack of time to study the website, and not out of a lack of interest in it. Things are a bit hectic here at the moment, having been away for a month and just returned, but also having to strip out a section of the workshop to make room for a new ( and much bigger!) lathe. So, I haven't been using the forum much for the last month, but I decided to follow your link this morning and realised just what I'd been missing.
 
Binh Pho's work is truly inspirational and it's easy to see why, with work of this quality, it's museums that are featuring his work, every bit as much as galleries - maybe it's a reflection on how our American peers view the function of a museum! In its true sense, the word museum stems from the word 'muse', meaning to cause interest. If I recall correctly, the original muses were the inspirers of interest in various branches of the arts! It seems that no matter what UK museums do  to try to struggle out of the old image of themselves as dusty old places where academics go to study matters-ancient, the good old British public stoically refuses to accept their modern approach to appealing to our interest, so we rely on galleries, where the emphasis is on sales, every bit as much as it is upon 'interest'. Thus the average bloke in the street rarely gets to see work of this quality because he could never afford to buy it, so why should he bother venturing into a swish, up-market gallery?

OK...rant over....I shall go now and rip out the rather splendid ( and exceptionally heavy) bench that I  built my old lathe because the new one's got legs. When I'm done, I shall spend some time studying Binh Pho.

Cheers...Les 

[bodrighywood]

There is definitely a divide between those that see wood turning as a purist craft in it's own right and those who see it as part of an overall artistic discipline. For me Binh Po and those like him who use turning as part of a wider art form are inspirational. To take turning out of the wider field of art and craft is, IMHO, a mistake. The wider public is unaware of what is being done partly because wood turning is an insular discipline. It is rarely seen in art galleries let alone museums in this country. We regularly get design and furniture home improvement magazines coming into the home here and rarely do you see any wood turning in the articles about decor, pottery, fine art, furniture and cabinet making  but wood turning? Never. I recently did a spot on local radio and took some pieces in and the presenter was going on about them non stop as he had no idea such things could or were made. If we are going to see wood turning portrayed with the same sense of pride and achievement as we do in the States we need to get our act together and not just display our work in wood shows and the like but in the wider field of art and craft. We only have ourselves to blame really. We seek the approval of other turners but how often do we try and publicise our work to the general public?

Just my personal observations but I suspect I am not alone.

Pete

[Les Symonds]

Hi Pete...

but how often do we try and publicise our work to the general public?

I tried....I wrote to two main galleries in North Wales, with photographs of my best three or four pieces and I didn't even get any reply at all! OK...my work isn't that wonderful (yet?), but you'd think that galleries should be encouraging us, not ignoring us!

Les

[bodrighywood]

There are galleries that will accept wood but they are few and far between. I have been looking for some myself and found one or two that may take it but you have to really look for them.

Pete

[Bryan Milham]

I'm not sure it was a true 'Gallery', but I walked into something similar about 3 weeks ago. Looking around I spotted a small wooden vase. I picked it up and instantly realised it was ceramic - I burst out laughing.

Not suprisingly the owner wanted to know what was wrong, so I showed her a few images on my phone of the vases I make and finish them to look like ceramic.

She saw the funny side and also laughed, but when I asked about taking my work she was not interested in wooden items!

[Les Symonds]

....... but when I asked about taking my work she was not interested in wooden items!

Philistine!

[Mark Hancock]

Hi Pete...

but how often do we try and publicise our work to the general public?

I tried....I wrote to two main galleries in North Wales, with photographs of my best three or four pieces and I didn't even get any reply at all! OK...my work isn't that wonderful (yet?), but you'd think that galleries should be encouraging us, not ignoring us!

Les

Les

Galleries get a lot of approaches from makers of all disciplines and don't always have time to go through them. The advice I was given many years ago on approaching galleries was to do your research, find out who to contact and try to arrange a meeting. It does take a lot of effort but it is worth it in the long run as you get to see the gallery, how they operate and see if it's suitable for your work.

Mark

[Richard Findley]

Oh dear, I feel a rant coming on....

Firstly, the state of UK turning.... It does annoy me when people put it down. We have some of the most fantastic and creative turners around, many of whom spend a good deal of their time in the US demonstrating. The fact that we see more US turners in the magazine would be because once all the UK artists have been profiled you need to look further afield. There is also the numbers between here and the US. More people over there, you'll get more artists. Simple.

The biggest problem for turning is that for every exceptional turner there will be 50 or 100 making s*#t. I believe this comes from 2 places. The first is that people try to sell their work before they are really ready to. You've made 10 bowls, given a few away as gifts now what? Sell them!

The other part of the problem is that people want to run before they can walk. They don't get their technique sorted before trying to make their masterpiece. I believe you should learn to make bowls (for example) properly and to a high standard before moving them on to art.

An example of this: I bet Binh Pho doesn't grab a random bit of wood, stick it on the lathe and 'see what happens'. A bet he doesn't get many catches either. Or regularly cut through the wall of his bowls. He carefully selects his timber. Plans the shape he will turn and makes what he planned. His piercing and colouring isn't haphazard, it is carefully planned and the processes have been refined and perfected over years of practice.

The whole joke about catches and mistakes being design opportunities is only right up to a point. It is frustrating when you can't make the thing you are aiming for. With good practice and technique you can make anything you want and not just what you end up with after a couple of hours turning.

It all boils down to quality at the end if the day. If you want to sell your work and get a decent return for it then you need to produce a quality product. Every thing after this becomes easier. If we present a low quality product to the outside world that us how they will see us.

Rant over.... For now

Cheers

Richard

[Doug Barratt]

On the whole I agree with Richard, America is a far larger market for all things wood, just look at the cabinet making side of things.


That said I`ve seen the following type of quote many times & just don`t think it relates.

The biggest problem for turning is that for every exceptional turner there will be 50 or 100 making s*#t. I believe this comes from 2 places. The first is that people try to sell their work before they are really ready to. You've made 10 bowls, given a few away as gifts now what? Sell them!

The 2 cafes I frequent have painted pictures on their walls, all by local artists, non of them very good & that reflects in the price they are being sold for. Does this affect the prices of top quality art done by professional artists?......No
Quite the opposite, seeing rubbish work only makes people appreciate quality work when they see it. It`s the same in many things in life, how do you know what is truly good if you have not seen bad ?

Many crafts have origins in practical needs, as the practical needs died back due to modernization, industrialization & change over the years those needs turned into the crafts we see today. I think  the main reason craft work struggles to realize the prices it deserves is because of this fact & the only way to change this is to change the publics perception of what we do.

I imagine there`s a hand weaving forum somewhere & the members are bemoaning their lack of income due to similar concerns.


Cheers.

Doug.

[Les Symonds]

Doug...I agree so strongly with you, and I must admit that I was a rather offended by Richard's inference that there are exceptional turners, and there are those who produce 's*#t'. Surely to goodness, there are many of us out here who produce work of a high quality which deserves a wider audience of appreciation. We may not aspire to be the 'exceptional' turners that Richard refers to and we may not have the highly developed tool-control skills that he refers to, but we take our time and we make good pieces of work.
This rather reminds me of a recent thread in which a member praised me for having mastered a tool-skill, which he then described as being an essential skill; Mark Sanger then intereved to state that the tool skill is not essential; rather it is the willingness and ability to achieve the quality of finish that befits a quality piece of work that is important. I'm with Mark on this one!

Oh and David, sorry, but we seem to have hijacked your thread - I wonder what Binh Pho would make of the discussion!

Les

[Richard Findley]

Hi Les

Apologies if you were offended. Clearly I wasn't talking about anyone specific (perhaps not as clearly as I thought) just based on a number of experiences I have had. There are of course many levels that we find our selves at between 's#*t' and 'Master'. I would also point out that I am one of those guilty of selling work before I was ready, and for too little money. Perhaps it's all just part of the leaning curve.

Doug, I totally hear you and can also appreciate this angle.

I think one of the biggest problems faced by turners who want to be taken seriously as artists is the image of woodturning. If I had a few quid every time someone came to my workshop and said something along the lines of 'oh, I was expecting someone older!' It would probably explain it well. I know of a couple of artistic turners that no longer describe themselves as Woodturners but as 'Multi-media Artists' or similar, just to try to shake off the image and 'sex it up' as the papers would say.

I would also point out here that I am not an artistic turner and have no ambition to be one, so I am not referring to myself at any point above!!

Not sure there's much that can be done about the age thing though, it's just the demographic of turning, and I'm told this is true here and in the US....

Cheers

Richard

[woodndesign]

Doug...I agree so strongly with you, and I must admit that I was a rather offended by Richard's inference that there are exceptional turners, and there are those who produce 's*#t'. Surely to goodness, there are many of us out here who produce work of a high quality which deserves a wider audience of appreciation. We may not aspire to be the 'exceptional' turners that Richard refers to and we may not have the highly developed tool-control skills that he refers to, but we take our time and we make good pieces of work.
This rather reminds me of a recent thread in which a member praised me for having mastered a tool-skill, which he then described as being an essential skill; Mark Sanger then intereved to state that the tool skill is not essential; rather it is the willingness and ability to achieve the quality of finish that befits a quality piece of work that is important. I'm with Mark on this one!

Oh and David, sorry, but we seem to have hijacked your thread - I wonder what Binh Pho would make of the discussion!

Les

Windy ... Les, don't be sorry, so far the comments have been valid.

We need to remember at grass roots we've all started at the same point in turning at some time, the beginning, so the view is to encourage new turners, aid and assist with how they can impove their work, in stead of as it has happened and someone was run off by comments, that's one we know of, how many others don't or will not post for the same reason ..  As with anything else we've done in life, eg, we never drove straight off from the first we got in a car... it took time and practice .. The Test .. and some still lack the component skills .. As Turners we all have separate abilities and for most a niche in what we do ... Has or could Binh Pho turn newels/spindles as Richard does .. no more than Richard would have turned a Binh form.

It's how we as turners' portray woodturning and act towards fellow Turners with encouragement, we're all turner's if not all equal, together that will change may be in time, the Galleries and public view of wood in whatever form it takes... or then we're just oldish men in sheds making bits n bobs.

Cheers   David

[bodrighywood]

I have just done a show where I was demonstrating and offered people to have a go and make their own mushroom or top for a small fee. All the takers were young, youngest was 13, or female and said that they had never done it nor had they realised they could. I learned in school as did many of us older turners but few schools teach it anymore because of H&S. One of the things that is perhaps needed is the  publicity of wood turning clubs where people can come and try for themselves. Any club that has insured turners and / or registered turners could do this surely?
Pete