Managing your customers expectations.

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I am enjoying this thread immensely, well done Bryan for suggesting it.
   How about turning the question round and asking what are your customer's expectations? Put this way does price play a part in the answer?
Regards
John BHT

[bodrighywood]

The cynical side of me says that the customer expects a much as possible for as little as possible but that isn't strictly true. I think what the sort of customer I aim for wants value for money, how he/she deems value can be different though. Those who appreciate the work and thought that goes into hand crafted work be it turning or embroidery, will be prepared to pay a decent price for quality work if they can afford to. Those who simply want something that they think looks good or is practical will possibly balk and end up going for mass produced work which is a lot lower in price. Most of all the customer wants to be able to trust the craftsman, know that there is comeback if there is a problem and feels that the crafts person is trustworthy. I suspect that many of us judge customers unfairly by trying to sell the wrong type of thing to the wrong people. As has been said the most important thing is to know your market. Key rings are not really suitable for a gallery and sculptural pieces, except perhaps as eye catchers, are not the thign to try ansd sell in the local market. Perhaps turners who sell, hobbyist or professional, could all do with lessons in marketing, I know I could

Pete

[Les Symonds]

Pete...I just read your latest addition to this thread and I agree with you, especially with regard to the concept of not selling key-rings in a gallery, or sculptural pieces in a market - concepts that I'm sure few of us would disagree with. Indeed, the problems start in the common ground somewhere between the two!  Several weeks ago I visited an arts and crafts centre at a busy location close by to a reservoir and RSPB centre in Mid Wales. The main gallery/shop at the location had 30 or 40 pieces of turned wood there and I guess that they were pitching their produce at a market somewhere mid-point between the two examples that you have just given us. The problem (for me) was that the designs were uninspiring, the amount of tool-marks left in the wood was frankly shocking and the finishes were abysmal - wax finishes had been flecked with pock-marks where they had (presumably) been splashed with a few rain-drops and the finish had generally dulled to a matt finish which did nothing to highlight grain patterns that a more professional finish might well have highlighted. Turning this back to Bryan's initial question about liaising with customers about their protestations, I tentatively picked up a piece and asked the lady at the sales counter whether the indicated price was fixed or not, especially given the poor state of the finish, and her response was to say that this is a shop, not an auction-house!

I have no idea whether or not the shop sells much of its wood-turning stock, but I do hope that they read this forum!

[woodndesign]

Reading the good sense from Mark & Pete highlights it's more Marketing ..  and John's as to what customer's expect ... I think it's safe to say that it would be something turned from wood .. with a commission they'd have a design, some idea of the timber they'd like to be used .. the rest is to work out the feasibility given the size of the form, the chosen timber, finish and your time .. plus the other overheading.

If it's just in making whatever comes to mind and a market to sell it .. then it's as has been mentioned, who too and where .. to that point .. would you buy the piece or any of them yourself, given as you've made them ..

We are all shoppers of a kind .. the need is to eat & drink .. there are so many stores .. why Asda and the likes or the extreme M&S .. service, food or price .. what is their marketing that makes Us shop there .. I've heard it said some drive miles to a store .. just for the free parking .. then go an shop in the town .. given the price of parking .. it's like the buses or train keep putting the price up and less use them ... I'm going off the topic a bit ..

What marketing makes you spent your money, is it just in the name .. turn it round and it's how we can have others spend their's with Us or on turned stuff Art ..

Interesting prices on not only Ray & Dave's work .. Hmmmm sand up a whole blank for a chopping block .. what've I got ...

Les, you highlight the saddest part of marketing for woodturning, it is hoped and the aim of this Forum is to aid and help all with an interest in turning to get and be better .. if only they'd use here and we all be constructive with our comments.

Cheers   David

[Mark Sanger]

If it's just in making whatever comes to mind and a market to sell it .. then it's as has been mentioned, who too and where .. to that point .. would you buy the piece or any of them yourself, given as you've made them ..


Interesting prices on not only Ray & Dave's work .. Hmmmm sand up a whole blank for a chopping block .. what've I got ...

Hi Dave

Yes I would purchase my own pieces if I had the money, but I could not afford my prices, just like I could not afford a Ferrari. 

It is always an interesting subject. One point that comes across to me again and again with woodturners is what you have said with regards to 'interesting prices' on Ray and Dave's work for a chopping board.

Marketing and selling has nothing to do with the cost price or process time of materials, saying that aside the prices on the David Mellor site I believe are reasonable, seeing that you have respected makers producing items which are then purchased by a business for onward selling and being sold to discerning customers.

The issue that most woodturners sell items for pence because they have no understanding of running business from turning nor what constitutes good design or finishing only undermines what we do as makers. So if we can make quality items as with any other business we have to aim it at the high end market. 

Les's example of the market in which the RSPB are selling wooden items. The issue here is they are only interested in making money for birds, which is fine, but they have no concern about the items they are selling and are best placed to sell items from China to maximize their profit for the charity, that makes good business sense.

This in itself would tell me it would be the wrong place to try and sell top quality work and I would look for another outlet. However if people are happy to make less for their work and want to sell  it at this price is also fine, we all sell our work at the price we choose.

Yesterday I went to a BBQ for a family birthday. One of the people attending I had not met before and found out that he was a cabinet maker for a high end company in the South West. The type of clients they had send £70,000 on a single piece of furniture without asking for the price before commissioning the work. Kitchens of £250,000, I saw pictures of the work, amazing and worth the money.

But knocking up a few cabinets and turning a few bits and piece, glue it together, what's the fuss.  do it in an afternoon. 

In relation to who and where I sell my work, some in galleries but more often than not now it is word of mouth or being contacted via the internet. There are loads of good mixed media galleries in the UK to sell from. Unfortunately very few of them will accept wood turned items with the reason being that it is of too poor quality and has a stigma attached to it that the gallery owners do not want to include within their outlet.

It is a shame but this is the experience I have had in the past when approaching them and sadly I have to say I learnt a long time ago never to say initially that I am a woodturner.

Apologies to Bryan if this is going off the initial question but I believe it is all interlinked. If you disagree jut tell me to bxxxxr off  and I will shut up. 



 

[Mark Sanger]

I guess a short answer is to just find customers with high expectations. 

[woodndesign]

Hi Mark, I for one, if not everyone, always find your views valid, after all you're the gentleman most at the pointed end of Marketing Turning in every sense of the word and know only too well the work involved, given you've knocked on a few door in the past and will in the future as well .. I know .. it's Business and never a piece of cake to get that opening, it's easy getting in the door, it's as much to sell yourself, as it is to sell over your work, before being kindly booted.

Overall .. whatever anyone of us makes and the price, is down to that individual .. and so many that Turn are today Hobbyists .. and if I recall correct in the Woodturning Magazine a few years back in the chat with a pro. an most are American (could even Our Magazine be Marketed at the United Sates and not us) the person expressed the future of Turning was in the hands of the Hobbyist ..  we can't get away from the fact .. but hope that via Ourselves and this Forum, the AWGB and at Club level the issue of qaulity can be addressed, if not pricing and subsequently the overall public awareness of wood art as being a recognized form.

Apologies if this is going off the topic. just tell me to bxxxxr off ...

Cheers    David

[Mark Sanger]

Always enjoy chatting with you David, I am always open to listening to others thoughts on a subject as this is how I learn.  Just because I say a certain way works for me does not make it so for everyone. Challenge everything people say and fine out our own avenue, is something I believe strongly in.

I had written another marathon reply  , but the computer crashed, hey ho, not meant to be. You will be relieved  If you are at Yandle's come and carry on the chat. 



 

[woodndesign]

Hi Mark, You'll be relieved I may not make it down to Yandle's for this falls' show ...  ... however there is Burcot Woodturners before that ...    ...
 
Cheers  David

[Richard Findley]

A very interesting discussion, and it has lead me down a couple of thought paths:

Firstly, marketing...

For large organisations they spend millions on marketing, and this goes from tiny little things through to huge TV advertising campaigns. As sole traders we can't compete with this but we can watch and learn. At the end of the day, the largest part of marketing is presentation. If a company presents themselves well and can get a potential customer 'on-side' then persuading them to part with their hard earned cash becomes somewhat easier. Notice I make no reference to Woodturners or carftsmen. I feel that many Woodturners get so caught up in being a maker/designer/craftsman or whatever, that they forget that actually the first thing they need to be is a businessman. We don't have the budgets of these big stores but by making a decent website, presenting ourselves well and our work (which HAS to be of the finest quality or the whole thing is for nothing) and conducting our business in a professional manor, whether this is via the phone, email, Internet, or face to face, then this is step one. We need to be confident, honest and knowledgable and all this comes across well to a potential customer.

Empathy is an important tool that I feel many people don't use. Think how frustrating it is to use a poor website. What do you look for when buying a product, you only have to think about the last time you bought a tool, machine or bowl blank for example. There are plenty of places that present the kit well, have friendly, well trained and knowledgable staff who can help in your decision making. There are probably an equal number that give somewhat shoddy service with somewhat iffy kit. You only have to browse the forums to find such comments and you know yourself that if you hear a glowing review you are more inclined to shop there, as you are less likely to if you hear the horror stories about poor service and products.

My other train of thought comes from the comment that 'the future of turning is with the hobbyist'. I think it could well be. The main problem is that there isn't that many people like me about, and there doesn't need to be, but if you look at the artistic side of things, a professional turner that as to feed a family can not spend 5 weeks making an item and then wait another 5 years for it to possibly sell. Only a hobbyist can spend time like this and not worry if it will sell or not. You read of these guys in the magazine who make these amazing things and they may well sell some of them, but you're not telling me they can living from the income!! Please correct me if I'm wrong!


Just some thoughts

Richard

[Paul Hannaby]

When selling face-to-face what methods do you have for proving your price is ‘Fair and Reasonable’?

Going back to the original question - my answer is you don't have to prove anything. How many retailers do you interrogate about the fairness of their prices? So why should we be any different?

I think in all the years I have been selling, the only people I ever got into a discussion with about prices were other woodturners! The buying public either buy or they don't so my approach is to set a price that I'm happy with. I doubt if I get it right every time but hopefully I learn from my mistakes.

[Les Symonds]

Think how frustrating it is to use a poor website. What do you look for when buying a product, you only have to think about the last time you bought a tool, machine or bowl blank for example.
Richard

Hi Richard...I couldn't agree with you more. I was looking through the AWGB web-site and found a thread started by someone trying to sell timber to us - via ebay.They gave us their trading name and assured us that we wouldn't be disappointed, but when I checked out their sellers' account, all that they had for offer was a single lot of 4 pond-snails. I remarked upon this in the thread on our Facebook site and they replied to say that they were sorry, but would have some timber for sale soon, but it is now 2 months since they started the thread!
Not daunted by this, they gave me another account/sellers name that they trade under and suggested that there would be good timber on sale there, but once again, there was nothing for sale. What does this say about the trader? In a word, I think that they are 'Unreliable' and I therefore won't bother to check them out ever again.
It's such a shame that people with a product to sell let themselves down like this.
Les

[Mark Sanger]

A very interesting discussion, and it has lead me down a couple of thought paths:

My other train of thought comes from the comment that 'the future of turning is with the hobbyist'. I think it could well be. The main problem is that there isn't that many people like me about, and there doesn't need to be, but if you look at the artistic side of things, a professional turner that as to feed a family can not spend 5 weeks making an item and then wait another 5 years for it to possibly sell. Only a hobbyist can spend time like this and not worry if it will sell or not. You read of these guys in the magazine who make these amazing things and they may well sell some of them, but you're not telling me they can living from the income!! Please correct me if I'm wrong!


Just some thoughts

Richard

Oh I don't know Richard, It is nice getting a sensible return for pieces and it sure beats working for a living.  

The lifestyle is chilled, loads of coffee breaks and busman's holidays to places I could not afford to go are a privilege to take part in. 

Demonstrating, teaching and writing is a bonus. It all depends which way you want to go in life, I have been on the treadmill with the stress that goes with it, blow that.

Creative for me is the future, be it hobbyist or full time it matters not, the quality of work does.

As Paul said and on thinking about it, for me too the only people I have conversations about cost/price are other wood turners. One thing I have learnt is price low and you attract those that don;t want to spend much money, price for what it is worth and those with disposable income will pay quite happily.

 

Looking forward to carrying this on over a few pints 

[Richard Findley]

Hi Mark

It wasn't you I was referring to when I talked about artistic turners. You are basically a production turner, albeit one that is in denial!!   ok you're not Glenn Lucas and you are never going to be a production spindle turner (I've seen your spindle turning remember!!   ) but in many ways, how you work and the methodology you use is essentially that of a production turner.

You make your noodle bowls, which are what you might call your bread and butter. I bet you don't make them one at a time, taking a couple of hours each like a hobbyist would. You employ production techniques to make the process as quick and efficient as possible.

Even with your artistic work (I'm not going to insult you by suggesting you bang them out willy nilly, but...) you are very efficient and certainly with your signature pieces with those little finials, you have the production down to a fine art.

None of this takes away from your talent as an artist. It just shows that you have a deep understanding of timber, how it should be worked, the tools and their geometry and the best and most efficient way to combine these to produce an item. You also have the vision to produce really high quality artistic work and have researched your market and know how to use this information to your advantage.

So I say again, that apart from the amount of coffee breaks you take, you are basically a production turner, and certainly don't fall into my previous sweeping statement.

I rest my case  

Richard

[Mark Sanger]

Hi Richard

I am glad I did not offend as I was taking the pxxx.  However after earlier reading your reply I have just come back from my first counselling session ref production turning. 

Joking aside and managing customers expectations is very complex, I know galleries take a fare whack of the retail price, but this is one of the things I am happy with as a good gallery or outlet will manage the customers for you.

Here is a link to a chap that I find very useful and you all may too. http://creativebusinessstrategies.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/what-am-i-worth.html

he has many great articles and seeing this is what he does then it is far better to explore his ideas than listen to me.