Managing your customers expectations.

[Bryan Milham]

Okay, so it’s quite, I thought I’d ask a question that’s been bugging me for a while… How do you manage your customers’ expectations.

I was recently at a wood store and while sorting through one of the boxes for the Banksia Pods I wanted.  I got talking to someone beside me doing the same thing. It transpired that we were both intent on making the same item but he was pitching his price at £7, less than half what I charge.

Now I don’t want to debate the merits of underselling items, that’s been done to death. But how do you convince people that what you are charging is a fair and reasonable price.

For example, in the past I have paid upto £7 for a pod. So to sell it at £7 would be a loss, okay those I was sorting through were under £4. But all the same, I’ve found that if I tell people I’ve paid Up-To (I don’t admit what the current ones cost) they then consider my price acceptable. Economical with the truth, maybe.

When selling face-to-face what methods do you have for proving your price is ‘Fair and Reasonable’?

[bodrighywood]

I work my charges out according to an hourly rate I pay myself, cost of materials (including finishes, abrasives etc) and at lest double it. As far as convincing people, if they want quality hand crafted work then they pay for it, if they want cheap imported work then they will probably go to a store or online anyway. Generally speaking i get few who argue the price. Those who charge the sort of rates that barely, if at all, cover cost of materials are doing those of us trying to earn a living no favours. A sore point with a lot of full time crafts people I'm afraid.

Pete

[Les Symonds]

This could be interesting and I'm going to watch this thread very closely, just to see what pointers I can pick up to help me as I start out selling my 'output' from the workshop.

I can see that I'm going to have some difficulty setting a price on the bowls that I've made from the pieces of Thuya burr that I discovered in the job-lot of timber that I bought a few months ago. The blanks cost me £1 each, so I'd be daft to sell them for that, plus my labour costs. On the other hand, if I were to consider the replacement cost of these blanks I'd have to charge very high prices for the bowls, and as a new turner without any reputation established, I can hardly command such high prices. I guess that I'll have to set a realistic value on the pieces ....but goodness knows how I'll do that.

Another point, of some relevance to this thread....a friend of mine had a stall at a major event at National Trust venue; he makes and sells individual wooden toys, jig saws etc. Either side of him there were stalls selling equally high-quality items - one a woodturner, the other a portrait photographer. Sales at the event, over 2 days, were dire, to say the least, yet, across the aisle from him was a stall run by a bit of a 'chancer' who had placed orders with several local bakeries and purchased pies from them....fruit pies, savoury pies and a few other similar items. He grossed £1,000 by the morning of the second day, then packed up and went home because he'd sold out. He had no lead-in time involved in making stock, just a capital outlay on one day, which he covered more than adequately by the next day. I guess that this speaks volumes about the public, who can spend money to get into events like this so that they can marvel at the beautiful artefacts on sale, whilst munching a mass-produced pie from a stall that made no attempt to conceal the fact that they were mass-produced and sold under barely legal conditions... it also says much about the sort of person most of us are....could we be happy buying and selling pies instead of being creative?

Food for thought...ha ha!

Les

[bodrighywood]

How long you have been turning is not as important as the quality of work that you produce. That is partly what customers are paying for. You can buy a wooden bowl in a supermarket for less than the blank costs but you will find it is made with laminated wood and often with inferior glue. Your cost should reflect the price of the wood if you need to replace it not how much it happened to cost you this time. If you are selling at craft fairs and the like people will be looking for bargains and expect cheaper prices. The price they pay is for handcrafted, usually unique items that are locally made friom sustainably sourced wood. (unless of course you mass produce everything the same from endangered trees LOL) Another selling point is that if anything goes wrong with the piece they can contact you and get the problem sorted, it does happen.

Pete

[woodndesign]

There are always those who can and do make a living at Turning.. but it's not always Turning alone .. we all do other elements besides.

It's right as each of you look at it, it's more over the cost to replace, than the initial cost or being free and our time is far from free as well.

Pete sums it up the quality of work is the all important issue and that has been done before ..

The funny thing with this coming up, is I've only recently read an interesting post on Robin Wood's Blog, as it's for all too read, the link .. http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.co.uk/ ... at the time ..  Saturday, 15 June 2013 .. How to price craft work, business advice for craftspeople.... since then it's interesting on his bowl prices .. Electric is not an over head for him, other than his light ..  Pole Lathe .. where do you plug it in ..  ..  and a few look to be from spalted timber ..  Thank you Robin for your welcomed Blog.

Cheers   David

[Richard Findley]

Hi

I think the point about being 'known' is a bit misleading. As turners most of us have heard of Ray Key or Bert Marsh but outside of turning their names mean very little. There are some hard core collectors that know 'who' to collect but generally a name means nothing. It's all about quality and service.

I long ago stopped worrying about how much (or more correctly, how little) other people charge - although it does pay to keep an eye on the market - but basically I quote a price and I either get or don't get the job. So far, there is plenty of turning out there that needs doing.

That said I am rather different to most turners. I don't make stock and I don't make artistic works that I then have to find a market for. I make what customers order and so am lead entirely by my customers. I find it keeps it interesting that way.

Cheers

Richard

[Andy Coates]

How long is a piece of string?

Dave Regester gives a formula for pricing in one of his books...can't remember which...you could email him.

All full-time turners who make stock (of whatever) to sell at events are always up against the amateur (and that's not derogatory: simply the definition of somebody who isn't doing it as a legitimate living. IE: paying insurance, commercial rent & rates, utilities, other overheads, and declaring the income to HMRC and paying any tax due on it).

"recouping the cost of making it" is a common claim, but it doesn't help the craft and the public's perception of it.

I price based on a standard hour. And recently I decided that I don't do parts of an hour anymore. If it takes ten mins then you pay for materials, finish etc and an hour's labour. If you don't like it you can always go elsewhere.

For decorative work I price on instinct really. What can I hope to get for it? It works or it doesn't. And I only discount to repeat customers or for bulk. If asked "what's the best you do this for" I add £20.

[Bryan Milham]

Gent's,

We all know about turners underselling their work because of no overheads. Also the rough formula for arriving at a price.

I want to try steer the topic back where I wanted it - Managing your customers expectations.

I'd like to thank Pete who's tried to stay with the question by mentioning the quality of his hand produced items and the fact that if you have a problem with it in the future, he'll try to assist with rectifying it for you.

What is it you do or say to a person who when given a price says, 'What!, for a bit of wood?'

[Richard Findley]

To that question there are 2 approaches...

1. You can take time with the customer and explain that it takes great skill to produce each item, individually, by hand, using carefully and ecologically sourced material, hand finished and polished using specialist products that will keep your item looking good for many years to come. The item has a guarantee and you are prepared to stand by your craftsmanship etc etc

2. You can save your breath and look at marketing your work better/to a different audience because if someone asks this question (along with a great number of others I've heard) then they don't, and probably never will, appreciate the work you are doing and certainly won't be persuaded by any spiel you give.

Most of my customers come through my website or through word of mouth/recommendation, so if they come to me they already know they will get a quality hand turned item and not some mass produced copy lathe rubbish. That's the first hurdle clear. The next is for you to be professional and make dealing with you a simple and pleasurable experience so when they part with their hard earned money they do so happily.

HTH

Richard

[bodrighywood]

If, like Richard, myself and others, you deal with customers personally then getting into a good relationship with them is important I believe. I have someone popping around tomorrow for their third purchase from me and that, to me, is a huge compliment. As Richard also says, the sort of people who think that we charge too much for a piece of wood will be unlikely to buy from us anyway. Perhaps we should look at our work as a more elite, quality, designer product. The sort of person who sees a hand made item of jewellery or a designer jacket as 'expensive' will be unlikely to view our work any differently. The last thing we should do IMHO is to dumb down what we do. Costing and valuing our work appropriately is important and we should be prepared to respond to customers in a way that explains that they are important to us and are getting something of value, not some old bowl knocked up in a garden shed in our spare time as I have heard it put.

Pete

[The Bowler Hatted Turner]

I think attitude is one of the most important aspects of managing customer expectations. You don't have to be a professional turner to have a professional respect for your customer. On taking on commissions you should listen to the customer carefully and understand what it is they want and you can then explain what is involved in the making of the item.
 Some customers are concerned about the source of materials used(others don't give a jot) so their wishes should be taken into consideration.I point out that I hand select my woods at the timber yard to give the best results and this again is reflected in the price.
I talk to them as an equal to establish the guidelines that I should work to and suggest alternative designs or materials if needs be that I feel will be more appropriate for the finished piece rather than what is easier for me to work with.
I regard each customer as the most important customer I have ever had(which can be difficult at times) and try
to make them feel relaxed and relieved that they are considering giving me the order. I reassure them that all possible care will be taken in the making of their requested piece and that I look forward to bringing their perceived ideas to fruition. One of the last things I talk about is how much each bit will cost as they are not interested in that but they do want to know the final cost. So after explaining about the quality of the wood, the making process and finishing, how they will feel owning this piece and how envious their friends will be and sometimes agreeing not to use the design for anyone else (they like one offs)then the customer begins to realise that the price they pay will be reflected in the quality of what they are buying.
Richard points out that the customer needs to have a pleasurable experience when dealing with you and I wholeheartedly agree with this especially when you think that you may get a repeat order from them or they may tell their friends about you.
I try to avoid tight deadlines as I hate doing rush jobs, even though I turn everyday for a living I still want to enjoy the turning experience of each job and this transmits itself into the finished item and so improving or maintaining the quality expected.
Lastly, knowledge of your own ability is very important, maybe that should be confidence of your own ability,only take on the work that you know you can complete satisfactorily and if you cannot do this find someone that can do it and pass the customer on. This will enhance the customers experience and helps build a relationship based on trust within the craft that should be reciprocated by the person you pass the work onto. This will have the effect (eventually) of the public trusting our craftsmen and women to deliver the best possible result for them.
Sorry to be a bit long winded,nearly finished now, after doing and explaining all of this to the the customer you have now moved the status quo, you have brought the customer into your world and they start to see what is involved in the making and why you charge what you charge, there is an empathy with you and your work ethic and they will feel more inclined to place the order.
If they still feel the price is still too high tell them to go find a hobby turner that will do it for less than the cost of the timber.
Regards
John BHT

[Tony Walton]

‘How much, it’s only a piece of wood’ is a comment I had a few years back at a craft fair from a woman who was looking at some turned apples and pears priced at £10.
I picked a lump of wood out of my box under the lathe that was full of bark pockets and intrusions held it out towards her and said ‘I can sell you this lump of wood in its raw state for £2’ she didn’t reply but gave me an evil look.
Anyway I mounted the piece on the lathe and started turning it, I noticed she was watching me and I proceeded to turn a rotten pear, applied a finish, polished it and fitted the flower and stalk then stood it on the end of the lathe.
She then said ‘you’ve just turned that beautiful pear out of that grotty piece of wood’ to which I replied ‘yes I have, it’s not the piece of wood you’re paying for it’s my skills and experience’.
She then asked ‘how much is that pear you’ve just made’; I replied ‘this one is £15 as a rotten pear is harder to turn’, she promptly got the money out a paid for the pear, another satisfied customer.
I never haggle or reduce my prices, if a customer say’s it’s too much I just say it’s not the item for you then, sometimes they will come back 20 min later to buy the item and ask if I still have it sometimes I have to say sorry I’ve just sold it you should have brought it when you first saw it instead of trying to haggle over the price.

[Mark Sanger]

The times I have mused over this question can be counted on the feet of a thousand millipedes. 

It is so complex and depends I have found much on the market you are selling in.

One thing at the core of it I believe of any market is that if items are well made then they will sell, they will sell within the market being sold in reflecting what other similar items will sell for.

IE a noodle bowl is a noodle bowl is a noodle bowl, people will expect it to be sold within a certain bracket reflecting what they have been exposed to, so efficiency in production is a major factor to maximise profit.

If an item can not be compared and it is marketed at a high end then a good return can be asked. If it is well designed and produced, unique, etc it generally will sell, but this market is very discerning and generally know what they are looking at from a design point of view. It is also a bloody difficult market to get into as I have been told on many occasions by owners of mixed media galleries that they will not stock turned wood as it is generally poor quality and had a bad persona.

If people quibble the price they are either never going to pay anyhow.

People with the disposable income to pay high end don't quibble or question they just don't buy if it is not up to scratch and go spend their money else where.

But it is not easy, and no one will make a million through woodturning, not unless they start off with two.

[TONY MALIN]

The answer to the original question is to supply what he/she wants when it's wanted at a price they are willing to pay. If they come back for more you're in business.

However in the open market where you are trying to sell what you have decided to make, the factors are wide open. Probably the most important are time and place, you can always play around with the price.

[Mark Sanger]

The issue is when you are given an answer you stop thinking, challenging and pushing what you do further and as a result just accept what the masses say sells, which mostly is mass produced poorly made crap from abroad, so managing customers expectations should be quite easy.  (not referring to your work Bryan) just what most people expect at craft fairs or similar venues, and I am not only referring to woodturning but selling in such environment for all makers, and how their time and skill is expected to be ' a bargain' by the punters because it is a weekend craft fair and it has been made by hand in the UK.

What I was trying to get across before is that there is no simple answer, marketing and choosing your market is a big part of selling anything and I would say a larger part than the item itself.

Go to the local cheap shop to buy a low cost salad bowl made from 'Rubber wood,  you will get on for a couple of quid, or market you work to a select market who appreciate unique hand made items and you can sell for this price http://www.davidmellordesign.com/acatalog/Craft_Wood.html

Here is another link. https://www.othercriteria.com/search/?s=Spin%20Chair&p=beautiful_poker_face_spin_chair

So yes if your customers keep coming back then you are doing well but it all depends upon which type of customer you want to keep coming back.

This is a decision you have to make depending on what you are satisfied with but just because another wants to charge £7 for an item and you want to charge double does not mean you are wrong. Yours may be better and sold in a different market, and before you manage your customers expectations you need to choose your customers and know their expectations, know the triggers that makes them buy and those that turn them off.

Obviously I don't want to take your question off track and talk about quality but you can't measure customers expectations without considering it.

People will buy anything for a low price but selling for what an item is worth is very different.