Pricing

[thebowlerhattedturner]

When I do commercial turnings for customers I work on an hourly rate,after a while you know how long it will take to turn a newel post or knobs etc. so you can give a price before commencing the work. It doesn't seem to work the same when making what I term gift items like bowls, hollow forms or candle sticks.
      I would be interested to know how others work out their prices for similar items. (I don't need to know the cost just the methods used)
Regards
John

[ken rodgers]

Hi John
Good Question
Its an area I find hard to define.
I find it depends on the area/venue, and a higher price can always be achieved in a good gallery (even with their commissions) compared to a craft fare.
Normally to get the minimum price I add the cost of the materials  plus a fixed rate of the time taken to make, and then adjust up or down
to suit the venue. I know its not a very accurate method but it gives me the basic price.
Here in rural Suffolk the prices that people are prepared to pay are a lot less than the London / Southern counties so one needs to have knowledge of the area.
This should be a good discussion topic for the forum
Regards
Ken

[Andy Coates]

A good one, but a potentially dangerous one...with this being a "public" forum!

The best method I ever came across was in Dave Register's book (can't remember which one) and it's a formula which works well.

The difference of course is in the status of the maker: a hobbyist should be pricing at a proper value, and not simply reaclaiming material costs - this does the craft and nobody any good, and can actually devalue what we do. The professional has to account for a whole host of other overheads which need to be covered in order to make a living (Ha!)...taxes (lots of), national insurance, utilities, insurances, commercial rent on space, business rates, consumables, materials, tools and related upkeep, time, vehicle expenses - MOT, TAX, INSURANCE, FUEL, WEAR AND TEAR...and the list goes on. And on.

Try keeping up to date with all this at £10 a bowl and you'll go bust quicker than a cheap balloon.

Now where's that job application form for B&Q?

[100quattro]

Hi all

An interesting question that will, I suspect, provoke some controversy.

I have read/been told about various formulae based on cost of materials, time taken, overheads etc but, for me as a hobby turnner who sells work these simply do not work.  Firstly, I regard myself as a relatively slow turner so to price on time taken would result in a much higher price compared to a professional who is doing this day in day out.  Secondly, and this may be controversial, many amateurs' work is better than a professionals' because they have the time to get it right.  I am not saying this applies to all you professional turners but one professional I have in mind (no name but he is not on the forum) a regular on the club demo and exhibition circuit seems to rely on his (misplaced?) reputation and fails to finish work to a good standard.  He should be ashamed to put his name to his work and does as much damage to woodturning as a profession as those amateurs/hobby turners whio sell at/below the cost of the wood.

I sell some of work through two local gallaries.  One is accustomed to displaying/selling wood and I am guided by them - the price charged is a balance between how much I want and what the customer is prepared to pay.  They know their market and it is their business - it does them no good having work sit around for years and not selling because it is no good, in the wrong 'market' or overpriced.  The other gallery has never sold turned wood before so pricing is a bit more flexible and I have to follow my gut instincts.  That said, they sell small bowls at about £40 and large platters at £200 each - and want to push the price higher because these sell fairly well.

Pricing is an art, not a science!

Kevin

 

[Dave Atkinson]

Interesting and controversial!

I think we have two issues here. 
First, John's question - how to price things when asked.  Andy gave a good answer and I've read the same thing in Dave's book and I can't remember which one either!

I work for myself (not woodturning) but the principle is the same.  How many days x daily rate (which is the market rate for the job) and that allows me to make a living.  The day rate is negotiable depending on the type or work, location, client relationship and so on.

Selling what I make is a different matter.  On a commission basis (not many of those ) I charge what I think is a good rate for the item, taking into account time and materials.

Selling at the odd school fete etc where our club demonstrates tends to be at much reduced rates because of the market.   I had a platter which should have sold for over £100 in a gallery.  Having had it on display at four events over 6 months I sold it for £50.  My mate remonstrated with me - you've just sold a £100 bowl for £50.  My reply - under the eaves of my house in a bag it's worthless.  £50 enables me to buy something else towards my hobby.

Andy is quite right but I'm not competing in the professional marketplace, if I was I wouldn't waste my time selling at school fetes and the like.  we do that to get people interested and if someone wants to buy something that's great but we don't have the overheads so we can't add the mark-up.

Personally, I'm much more concerned that I see a lot of rubbish for sale, which gives what we do a bad name - maybe that's the wrong phrase, but it certainly doesn't enrich what we do.

Cheers Dave

[thebowlerhattedturner]

Yeah I thought this would cause a little bit of controversy( that's not why I asked) It just seems to me that wherever you live in the country people will always pay for commercial work, usually without batting an eyelid, what you ask for it, within reason. But when you start selling craft type stuff people start questioning the price. I have seen a lot of methods for pricing (one was measure the diameter of a bowl in cm. and that is the price in pounds)but no sure fire way.
 As far as quality is concerned we have to remember that if you have nothing to judge quality by then it could end up inferior. This where I think trading competition is a good thing. If you set your stall next to mine and your stuff outsells mine I will then look at why. Quality always sells but should include all aspects of quality. Design etc. But I think this a seperate issue on it's own, my original question was methods of pricing. Look for example at a 4" x 2" bowl made in Beech.No job takes less than an hour so 1 hour's labour let's say at £20 phr, £5 worth of wood and £5 worth of sundries, tax etc.Add onto that any pecentage that a gallery will take in commision 20% so you now have a 4" bowl at £36. Would you buy a 4" beech bowl, no matter how good it is, for £36?
   Could be 2 of us working at B&Q!
Regards
John

[Andy Coates]

I think your last point is where the turner can make a difference...

If can source your wood in the green, rough it and finish turn, then you reduce material costs. Your formula is then based upon replacement timber costs at kiln dried cost. And there's your markup over and above the other factors.

As for £36 for a bowl...one of Robin Wood's, Bert Marsh's, or Jules Tattersall's, and a number of others, for instance, would be a steal at that. 

[Dave Atkinson]

You've just introduced another factor Andy - "the Designer label"

Cheers Atco

[BrianH]

As a 'Woody' I would just love to agree with what has been said about quality always selling but, in my own experience there are some non-woody factors which none of us may like the sound of. For instance a nameless, female member of my own family has several pieces that I have made her over the years, including one from an AWGB Seminar. Her hobby is making lace, which seems to involve buying innumerable turned wooden tools and bobbins. Needless to say I've given these pieces a good dose of looking at and can say without doubt that some are of really fine quaility whereas others are no more than firewood. To her eyes, however, they are all just WOOD and, as she will tell you as often as you like to listen, she just loves wood.
She has therefore proved willing to part with hard-earned for both good and bad items and, probably more worrying still, can't tell the difference in spite of having an experienced woody in the family. Is she alone in this?
I very much doubt it because I have heard similar words from a local art group that I have demonstrated for.
When we are talking about selling stuff it is important not to to make decisions based on our own 'woody' values but those of the potential customers who may well be far more fickle than we would imagine.
Food for thought perhaps?
Brian

[Andy Coates]

I agree, Brian.

The example I always use is hollowform vessels. Customers don't a rat's doodah if the wall is 2mm, 6mm, or 10mm thick...probably even thicker...and some wouldn't care if the "form" was solid. Only turners get hot and bothered about wall thickness and an even wall. And I've actually had people complain that a hollowform "feels too light", and that they prefer their wood to "have the weight of wood". So go figure.

Do you spend hours hollowing to 3mm and an even wall and sell at £X, or do a quick "that'll do" and sell for the same?

The other issue is finish...

I once spent a very depressing day watching a "turner" (hahahahahahahahahaha!) packing natural-edged bowl after natural-edged bowl for customers. He sold so many it'd make you weep. And when you looked at them they were grotesque. Poor shape, poor finish, and VARNISHED!!!!! Actually varnished with, well, VARNISH!

Depressing.

But then he sold over thirty pieces, I sold nine, and I more than doubled his take. So not so depressing.

[thebowlerhattedturner]

Point taken, are we too fussy for our own good? I remember teaching someone how to hollow out through a small(ish) hole and how to deal with the sanding. He said what was the point of sanding when no-one can see inside. I cringed and said that "I" would know, his answer was "so what". Perhaps we are too fussy but in the end you have to be the one to satisfy as far as quality is concerned. Imagine if someone paid a lot of money for a hollow form and dropped it and the insides were as rough as old boots, the thought of breaking it in the first place is bad enough but to see any part of it badly finished doesn't bear thinking about.
 Regards
John