AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => Tool tips & reviews => Topic started by: David Holden on May 21, 2020, 02:11:18 PM
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Hello again!
At the moment I'm using one of the cheapest Axminster grinders available on their website (AC200BG 200mm) and it isn't very good. It's ok for sharpening skew chisels and other chisels with a straight edge but I can't turn any gouges without the steel overheating, I bought a jig to help but it hasn't helped much really.
I'm thinking of getting the Tormek T-4 Sharpening System and the TNT-808 Woodturner’s Kit. Does anyone use this? Is there much difference between this and the T-8?
https://www.axminstertools.com/tormek-t-4-sharpening-system-with-tnt-808-woodturner-s-kit-720737
Regards
David
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2" is the main difference, the T4 uses an 8" wheel, the T8 uses a 10" one. There are speed differences between them as well. I gave up on my T7 sold it and bought the Sorby ProEdge instead, absolutely nothing wrong with Tormek, they are the masters of the wet grind system often imitated never equalled, but wet grinding takes time to set up, and clear up at the end of the day, I have no water in my workshop so had to remember to take a bottle of water down to it if I was going to sharpen, silly niggles really as the Tormek really does do a good job of sharpening a lot of things.
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I don’t know what the gouges you want to sharpen are made of but it’s not easy to overheat HSS with normal sharpening. HSS can supposedly get red hot and still maintain its hardness. If you’re using older “Tool Steel” gouges then they can loose their edge much easier if you overheat them.
I often use HSS on my metal turning lathe and have inadvertently blued the steel whilst sharpening on several occasions and it’s had no noticeable effect on the cutting edge.
I second the Sorby ProEdge. The ability to quickly change belts and therefore the grits is in itself very useful. Reshaping a gouge can be done quickly with a 60 grit belt and then swapped for a 120 for sharpening. I’ve used 240 grit belts for carving tools and you get a virtually polished edge.
The relatively new Axminster Ultimate Edge May be an even better proposition if it’s within budget as it is reversible and variable speed and takes existing Tormek jigs.
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-trade-ultimate-edge-variable-speed-sharpening-system-106232
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2" is the main difference, the T4 uses an 8" wheel, the T8 uses a 10" one. There are speed differences between them as well. I gave up on my T7 sold it and bought the Sorby ProEdge instead, absolutely nothing wrong with Tormek, they are the masters of the wet grind system often imitated never equalled, but wet grinding takes time to set up, and clear up at the end of the day, I have no water in my workshop so had to remember to take a bottle of water down to it if I was going to sharpen, silly niggles really as the Tormek really does do a good job of sharpening a lot of things.
Thanks Pete. I've been looking at the Robert Sorby ProEdge since you mentioned it and I must say it looks really good! I'll continue my research but this has just become the front runner I think! Thank you!
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I don’t know what the gouges you want to sharpen are made of but it’s not easy to overheat HSS with normal sharpening. HSS can supposedly get red hot and still maintain its hardness. If you’re using older “Tool Steel” gouges then they can loose their edge much easier if you overheat them.
I often use HSS on my metal turning lathe and have inadvertently blued the steel whilst sharpening on several occasions and it’s had no noticeable effect on the cutting edge.
I second the Sorby ProEdge. The ability to quickly change belts and therefore the grits is in itself very useful. Reshaping a gouge can be done quickly with a 60 grit belt and then swapped for a 120 for sharpening. I’ve used 240 grit belts for carving tools and you get a virtually polished edge.
The relatively new Axminster Ultimate Edge May be an even better proposition if it’s within budget as it is reversible and variable speed and takes existing Tormek jigs.
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-trade-ultimate-edge-variable-speed-sharpening-system-106232
Thanks Bill. The gouges have lost their shape and I'm struggling to get it back with the jig I have at the moment, it's not easy to use at all and still basically requires you to sharpen it free hand, I'm losing a lot of steel every time I sharpen them and just end up using carbides, but I really want to use the traditional chisels as well. The ProEdge looks really really good and it seems a better choice for me over the Tormek at the moment! The Tormek does look superb but ease of use goes to the ProEdge from what I can see.
Thanks mate.
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I think it’s rather ironic that both the Sorby ProEdge and the Axminster Ultimate Edge both use the Tormek gouge jig. I actually use a Record Power belt and disc sander to sharpen my tools and also use a Tormek jig bought from Robert Sorby! ;D
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I think it’s rather ironic that both the Sorby ProEdge and the Axminster Ultimate Edge both use the Tormek gouge jig. I actually use a Record Power belt and disc sander to sharpen my tools and also use a Tormek jig bought from Robert Sorby! ;D
It is a clamp and swivel kind of job :-) when something is done right why do it again! I rate the Tormek highest of the sharpening systems as it sharpens more things well, and gets my tools sharper than the ProEdge ever will, but they are hand tool sharp and the edge doesn't last long at 1000rpm, then they are equal.
Proedge sharpens less things well, it just happens that the subset it does well is woodturning tools which is what I use. and apart from when reprofiling which is new tools and "damn who put that nail in there" times! I only ever use the diamond belt. and as I use the 40/40 grind a lot at the moment I don't use any jigs just put it on the table and bring back the edge.
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Yeah, it's only woodturning tools I need sharpening and profiling really. I have axes but I quite like sharpening them with a puck, today I spent the afternoon sat in the sun sharpening one of them. I'll keep the Axminster grinder as well, I won't get rid of it.
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when something is done right why do it again!
Well actually Tormek did. There are currently two versions of their gouge jig available, the SVD 185 and SVD 186.
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when something is done right why do it again!
Well actually Tormek did. There are currently two versions of their gouge jig available, the SVD 185 and SVD 186.
Sorby are on Mk3, having licensed Mk1 from Tormek but the principles are the same as the original, I don't actually know who did the design, but they were good!
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Given that advice I’ve seen from Sorby not to alter the angle on the jig I can’t help thinking it may have been better to have a more simple fixed jig. I suspect though that it was cheaper to buy in the jig from Tormek rather than manufacture their own. The jigs do work well though and much more compact than some of the contraptions seen over the pond! ;D
Although much more expensive I do like the fact that the Axminster Ultimate Edge makes use of many of the Tormek jigs.
https://youtu.be/L4JgPh3FJng
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Axminster version wasn't out when I bought mine, I would have looked at it if it was, The Sorby jig and it's use has been modified by the creation of the 3 hole long grind swivel, what that achieves was originally done by adjusting the length / angle of the jig, but using the 3 hole one there is no real need to do it anymore. Obviously all jigs = compromise, but repeatable angles no matter what they are can be learned and it saves time effort and steel to use jigs as a rule, I don't always as I said somewhere up the thread I am using the 40/40 grind a lot at the moment because I am enjoying it! and that has to be done mostly freehand (set table to 40° and I have 40° angles put on it with marker pen to start / stop the swing).
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When I bought mine Sorby only sold the single hole boss. Soon after it came out though someone kindly gave me one of the three hole bosses. The principal is fine but I had trouble with an old short gouge some time ago so I made a new short boss to accommodate it.
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I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the ProEdge now thanks to you both! There are quite a few deluxe versions for sale with the jig I need for under £400.
I might buy my wife something with the money I've saved! (or a couple of new chisels) ???
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I have the ProEdge but never really got the most from it and when Axminster brought out there version i could see they had addressed many of the shortcomings I was experiencing, I toyed with buying but decided instead to modify the Pro Edge.
I fitted a longer platen and fitted the Axi multi jig plus repositioned the unit on its base plate, the results were as good as i had hoped and even invested in the Axi CBN Belt.
I now use the Tormek range of jigs and use the Tormek settings without any problem and grind repeatability is always achieved.
The only thing I cannot do is reverse the rotation which is a luxury i can live without, well for now that is.
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I wouldn't mind seeing a picture of your modifications at some point Richard if you can manage it.
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Bill picture of my modified Pro Edge.
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Thanks for that Richard. I sharpen most of my tools on a much modified Record Power belt and disc sander. I think what you’ve done is a great idea. I may modify my machine a bit more! What diameter is the rod by the way? I made my existing one fit the Sorby jig.
Edit: This is my mine. An early picture, it’s been modified even more.
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Well, I ordered the ProEdge and got a few belts with it too; 60 grit ceramic, 60 and 120 grit zirconium and a 600 grit trizact. It comes with a 1200 grit trizact belt in the package too, as well as another belt but not sure what it is.
I also ordered a Crown Cryo M42 Razor Edge Bowl Gouge - the 1/2" long grind.
Thanks for all your help again gents!
Kind regards
David
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Pleased we could help David, that is what we are here for, hope it works well for you. Final thought on it, set it up so you have good access to it, I physically stand in 3 different positions when putting on the 40/40 grind and all standard grinds need me to have good comfortable access to the machine.
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Pleased we could help David, that is what we are here for, hope it works well for you. Final thought on it, set it up so you have good access to it, I physically stand in 3 different positions when putting on the 40/40 grind and all standard grinds need me to have good comfortable access to the machine.
Thanks Pete, I cleared a space this afternoon with lots of room for me to work with it.
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Hi David, I bought the Pro-Edge a couple of years ago and haven't used the Tormek for turning tools since. Have a look at Robert Sorby Pro-Edge Hints & Tips video on Utube and also Martin Saben_Smith's Pro-Edge Sharpening Demo Video both very good. Comment about not changing the angle of the spindle gouge attachment, Why Not ? I spoke with the Sorby Guys down at Yandles a couple of years ago about some gouges that were a bit shorter and wouldn't fit into the jig at the correct angle and they said what's the problem just alter the angle that's what it's for. Also if you want something other than your normal 45/ 50 etc then you have to alter the angle so long as you make a note of where it should be for your standard 45 then so be it. I think you will pleased your purchase it does make life easier. Julian
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If the steel is overheating you are either turning carbon steel or putting a huh=ge amount of pressure on it for HSS. If the angles are already there you only need a quick touch up and ovderheating wouldn't be a problem. Have a look at Bowler Hatted Turners vidoes on Youtube. He uses basic wheels and shows how to sharpen most of the tools you're likely to use.
Pete
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Comment about not changing the angle of the spindle gouge attachment, Why Not ? I spoke with the Sorby Guys down at Yandles a couple of years ago about some gouges that were a bit shorter and wouldn't fit into the jig at the correct angle and they said what's the problem just alter the angle that's what it's for.
The instruction came from Robert Sorby themselves. Early on the way to alter the angle was to change the tool extension - they still sell a jig for this. Realising this was not enough they then introduced the 3 hole boss some years later. The problem for Sorby is that the gouge jig was never intended to be used in this way, it is after all made by Tormek for use on their grinders. Sorby don’t even supply the complete jig. I suspect the original instructions not to alter the jig angle was to make repeatability easier or perhaps it was to sell more bosses and extension jigs? The idiot proof raster mechanism for selecting the required angle for sharpening other tools is an obvious example of their ethos regarding operation of the machine. As you say though there is no real reason not to alter the angle. Having said that it not exactly a precision device and it gives no indication of any angles as far as I can see. Sorby originally just told users to align the arrow with the middle slot if came loose. Axminster tools have taken a different approach with their grinder and require users to buy the entire Tormek gouge jig and dispense with the need for a boss completely.
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Yes I see the point here Bill but if I need to alter the angle a bit or more likely put a shorter gouge in I will take the belt off Match up the angle to the back plate and then sharpen in the usual way. It's worked for me for a long time. Julian
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I don’t know why RS introduced the boss if I’m honest. They should just have sold the complete Tormek jig and told users to alter the angle as you have. I expect that tool extension, jig angle and boss position makes things a bit daunting for new users. Having used and recommended the ProEdge many times I must confess that I’m now a fan of the UltimateEdge although I’ve yet to try it. Maybe on another Axminster factory visit when lockdowns over!
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Axminster do have a bit of a habit of copying other peoples work and I think their quality control at the factory could be improved but saying that the after sales service is really good and mistakes are rectified quickly. I do like the reversing switch on the Axminster one. I have looked into modifying the RS but it involves a complete strip down of the motor so will leave that till a later date.
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I can make the parts required for my belt and disk sander to be a bit more like the Axminster. I too would like to reverse the direction as well but not sure it’s possible with my motor either. I don’t intend taking the motor apart!
I’m actually wondering how difficult it would be to build a machine from scratch except I’m not so good at electrics and I know some inverters can be a pain to set up if you don’t know what you’re doing.
I’ve seen lots of examples of home built “belt grinding” machines so I’m sure it’s doable, just a matter of whether it’s less than the £450 that Axminster want?
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Hi David, I bought the Pro-Edge a couple of years ago and haven't used the Tormek for turning tools since. Have a look at Robert Sorby Pro-Edge Hints & Tips video on Utube and also Martin Saben_Smith's Pro-Edge Sharpening Demo Video both very good. Comment about not changing the angle of the spindle gouge attachment, Why Not ? I spoke with the Sorby Guys down at Yandles a couple of years ago about some gouges that were a bit shorter and wouldn't fit into the jig at the correct angle and they said what's the problem just alter the angle that's what it's for. Also if you want something other than your normal 45/ 50 etc then you have to alter the angle so long as you make a note of where it should be for your standard 45 then so be it. I think you will pleased your purchase it does make life easier. Julian
Thanks Julian. I've will check out the video you mentioned. I've been watching a few other videos too including Mike Waldt's in depth overview which was excellent!
Kind regards
David
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If the steel is overheating you are either turning carbon steel or putting a huh=ge amount of pressure on it for HSS. If the angles are already there you only need a quick touch up and ovderheating wouldn't be a problem. Have a look at Bowler Hatted Turners vidoes on Youtube. He uses basic wheels and shows how to sharpen most of the tools you're likely to use.
Pete
As I said in an earlier post, I had lost the shape and was trying to profile it again (free hand basically) and it wasn't working for me.
David
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Final thought on it, set it up so you have good access to it, I physically stand in 3 different positions when putting on the 40/40 grind and all standard grinds need me to have good comfortable access to the machine.
Thought I'd share a photo of where it is going, this is straight out of the box and screwed into a fixed position. If the wing-nuts get in the way I'll put washers there instead.
Thanks again for all your help boys!
David
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That’s far too clean to be a workshop David, it looks more like a photographic studio! ;D
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That’s far too clean to be a workshop David, it looks more like a photographic studio! ;D
Give it a few weeks ;)
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Yeah, it's a tip already! I tidied that bit up for the photo!
There was a problem with the ProEdge when it came. I reshaped a bowl gouge and a spindle gouge with no problems at all, but had to adjust the belt position slightly and it just went loose. For some reason the thread on the shaft had been squashed, so I couldn't tighten the collar. Anyway, some fella from Robert Sorby called me and I told him what the problem was and he sent me a replacement. Dead easy to change and works perfectly now.
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I had a similar problem with threads of sharpening jigs that came with a Record Power grinder. First time they were used the threads failed to 'bind' properly and remained loose. The problem was quickly sorted out when I brought it to the supplier's attention, but it bothers me that a faulty item was dispatched in the first place. I wonder how good quality control is in cases like this . . . . . . .
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Not much it seems. Record Power are currently replacing faulty Banjos supplied with their Herald lathes according to social media.