AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: apw99 on April 14, 2020, 09:43:17 AM
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Hi Folks,
I have been turning for a few years and have only had a few brief lessons at the very start, so I am self-taught. I like the artistic aspect of turning rather than being the perfectionist. I tend to like to turn chunky bowls which are quite thick, I leave any holes, bark or features that I possibly can. I even made a goblet once which cracked and I stitched it up with copper wire and it went down a treat!
However I am interested in what is considered 'good practice' or considered 'correct'? Some things I believe I have heard are
- Thinner is better
- remove the divot
- never use varnish
etc etc...
I am just wondering what you guys as well accomplished turners regard as 'good practice'
Thanks - stay safe.
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You are talking design not turning practice and there are no set rules. Thinner for exmple is fine of you want to lmpress other turners or make lampshades but not a lot of use if you are making things for use such as a goblegt or fruit bowl. As a proturner I make lots of pieces with holes, splits etc, also lots of things without. At the end of day the main rule should be is it fit for purpose and if it is meant to be decorative only then that is totally up to the individual. I have a gallery of my work on my website and to be honest some of the things I have made, in hindsight, I am not keen on at all but they sold, someone liked them. Only thing I would say is whatever you make do it to the best quality you can.
Pete
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Pete is right you are mostly talking design with you question so you can do what you like and finish it how you want.
personally i still go by "the only rule is, there are no rules"
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I had a few lessons with a turner named John Davis, also bought my first tools and my bandsaw from him, one of the main things he taught me was function rules for functional items. sort of his quote, but it was a long time ago... "A fruit bowl is not a fruit bowl if it is so thin and light that it falls over when you drop an apple in it, and a goblet is not a goblet if it is so thick you can't drink from it."
When making bowls for yourself always leave the chuck mount on, then you can remount to refinish or change the shape, it is frowned on by other turners but if done well nobody else notices.
Art is in the eye of the buyer, here you can let your imagination run a bit wild. Personally I have absolutely no taste, if I turn something and think what an ugly monstrosity, it will probably sell, if I love it, I probably get to keep it! Myself and many other turners will look at a natural edge heavily spalted and split piece and think, wow that was hard / brave / insane to turn often before we look at it as a piece of art, we have all had a go at the knuckle tappers and the ones that would have hit us in the face if not for CA glue and duct tape.
Don't use varnish well not in a wood turning shop anyway the dust will drive you mad!
Don't use water or oil based colours unless you want to.
Don't mix oak and iron except where rust and staining is the objective
Bottom line is:
Keep your cutting tools (including abrasive) sharp,
Pay lots of attention to how your wood is connected to the motor so it stays where it was put.
Be aware of dust and use sensible precautions to keep it outside of you.
Decide the primary purpose of the piece, and blend form and function to meet that primary objective.
Look shamelessly at what everyone else is doing, there are only beads, coves and straight cuts available to us we can only choose size and materials, and people have been spinning wood for a lot of years, so everything has been done before, making your version of someone else's design is fine, if you think theirs is perfect get as close to it as you can, if you think it is almost perfect, then improve on it, you are doing it right when someone else copies you.
Most important is stay safe, and enjoy the process.
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On the copy issue, I thought I was a right clever clogs when I saw a shape in nature while on holiday, spent a few days cutting it in my mind got home and did it for real, and was very pleased with it. Put in the local club competition and someone said "saw that on YouTube" .... got home looked it up, and there it was, even worse it was better than mine!
In reality it didn't matter, I enjoyed figuring it out and cutting it, his method was similar but improved as he had cut several and worked some of the kinks out, and I had a few lathe free days occupied by working out the cutting order.
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The rule I stick to is
"You cannot make the inside larger than the outside"
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The rule I stick to is
"You cannot make the inside larger than the outside"
You can, if you put the inside on the outside.... ;)
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You say you are not a beginner but I'll add that two mistakes beginners or not very accomplished turners make are:
1. To make the biggest thing you can from a piece of timber,
and
2. Letting the tool make the shape e.g. you did not or cannot control the tool properly enough to make the shape you see in your minds eye.
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My two rules are:- Keep it sharp and Keep it safe!
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A few random thoughts on the subject -
Ask 12 turners how to do something and you will get 13 answers.
There are no "rules" other than whatever you do, do it safely.
If what you make is suitable for it's intended purpose then it isn't wrong.
Too many people spend their time trying to please (or impress) other turners when if they just concentrated on pleasing themselves, they would a) be much happier and b) would produce better work!
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Good practice in my book is trying to improve your the finish on every piece you turn
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I think the best practice is to listen to everything available, read everything you can lay your hands on, try everything you feel comfortable with but then treat the whole lot as opinions NOT facts... no matter how eminent the source!
Opinions can be changed as soon as a better idea strikes whereas a fact is set in stone for ever. Yes, this will call for a certain mindset and mental dexterity to achieve.
Well, well, well woody psychology on a lockdown Thursday, who'd a thought it???
No gardening today so its back to the workshop for me...……
Brian
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A piece of advice I was given some time ago "spend twice as long on the finishing than the turning" and this is borne out at craft shows watch the punters picking up and feeling the finish, if they buy it you want the finish to be there for a long time
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When I was first apprenticed the first things I was taught (apart from how to make tea)was how to sharpen my tools, I did this not once or twice but all the time and I still do it now.The second thing I was taught (apart from how to make coffee) was how each tool cuts. Learn how they cut or how they are able to cut i.e. a freshly sharpened parting tool can also scrape on the side of the tool. Learn these bits and get them ingrained into your standard working practice. It annoys me when I ask if some one has been turning lately and they say "no but I sharpened my tools last Sunday." Or at shows the most frequently asked question is "how often do you sharpen your tools?"These people, in my opinion , should not be allowed near machinery. Sharp tools and the sharpening of them are what is done in the course of turning. Do this apw99 all the time because that is "best practice". using tools with a dull edge will produce dull results.
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Firstly I hope you are all well and keeping sane in this bizarre world we live in. One benefit, if there can possibly be a benefit in such an awful predicament, is I get a lot more time in the shed without the pressure to be somewhere else.
What a wonderful repository of wisdom and knowledge this is, thank you for taking the time to respond to me. Many fine insights and it most definitely assures me that I am more or less going in the right direction. I definitely am from the school of turning as an art form rather than a craft, so it is the skills that go with the craft that I need to reinforce.
I loved the comment "You cannot make the inside larger than the outside" ;D and also it is very clear that sharp tools are essential as well as safety.
One of my biggest weaknesses which I am now going to address is sharpening. I am endlessly frustrated by failing to make a decent edge on basic tools like scrapers never mind trying to master the gouges. I watch clips about 'Irish Grind' and various others like 'finger nail' and I need to look into this more. However my grinder is definitely not fit for purpose so I need to get something more useful and also some type of a jig to help me get the gouge sharpened accurately.
So this is my next question....what type of grinder/stone. My current grinder is a 6" with a white stone but the stone is too narrow and also really difficult to true up, in fact I never managed to get it to stop wobbling. I know this decision is also down to budget and I don't have a lot to spend but looking at €200 range I see this wetstone variation and was wondering what your thoughts are on this?
https://scheppach.com/product-details/Nassschleifsystem-TIGER-2500-scheppach----230V-50Hz-200W-5903202901.aspx?WPParams=43CCD7D4B5DDE6B7C2E0B1CDE1C8B6B79495 (https://scheppach.com/product-details/Nassschleifsystem-TIGER-2500-scheppach----230V-50Hz-200W-5903202901.aspx?WPParams=43CCD7D4B5DDE6B7C2E0B1CDE1C8B6B79495) , this comes with a gouge jig as well which might be useful.
This is about the limit of my budget and I would keep the rough grinder for general shaping and this one for sharpening as I read that the stone is quiet soft and not the best for gouges as they do not present a uniform surface...
Thanks again for ALL of the brilliant insights
Be well.
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As with most things it isn't just down to the equipment but what you do with it. If the stone wobbles then that is not going to help but a basic grinder with a white stone is perfectly adequate for most sharpening. You can spend a small fortune on all sorts of fancy equipment and no doubt there are those that will come back with their recommendations but bottom line you don't 'need' it. John Aitken is perhaps best to tell you what is actually required as he uses as basic a set up as ypu can get. I used a simple record for years until the motor burnt out. Got another basic grindstone, with white wheel. Also now got a tormek (cheaply I hasten to add) but to be honest it doesn't make my tools any sharper amd all the pfafffing around with jigs can be a right PITA. Still do most sharpening on the basic one.
Pete
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For twenty years i have used a Creusen slow speed grinder with white wheels and the Sorby profile jig, fast accurate repeatable grinds in seconds. Time turning not sharpening.
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Ah, sharpening, that old chestnut. On one side you have the old kitchen step brigade: “I’ve been sharpnen me tools on tut kichin step fa forty yars and it’s good nuf fer me”. And on the other side you have those that like to use a jig. Let’s not start on carbide or world war three will break out! ;D
I’ll start with a little story. A friend of mine works as a technician at a school. They had a long neglected 10” bench grinder that was probably made in the late 50’s or early sixties. It used to be used for sharpening HSS metal working tools but they’ve switched to carbide inserts instead. Wood working chisels and plane irons are still sharpened on one of these.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/viceroy-sharpedge/
Wood turning was a relatively new topic and the tools were only sharpened by one guy on a bench grinder using a couple of simple jigs. This was never going to work long term because students need to spend their time turning, not waiting for someone to sharpen the tools or spend time learning to do it themselves - there aren’t any marks for this. About eight years ago they bought one, then two Sorby ProEdge grinders and all the jigs. They’re still using them today and the old grinder was given to the maintenance department. ;)
At this point it’s perhaps worth mentioning that Robert Sorby have been sharpening their tools on a belt grinder for decades. The speed and ease of this didn’t escape them so the ProEdge was introduced. They still make jigs for bench grinders though for those on a tight budget. Both systems work just fine. I much prefer the flat grind you get with a belt although I don’t own a ProEdge.
Next combatant ... :)
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I used the same sharpening system for several years, nothing wrong with it.
If you want a sharpening system, look at the JET jigs, the fit the support bar you have and are not frighteningly expensive
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I no longer sharpen my tools.
Many years ago I started out with a record power white wheel 8" grinder and a bowl of water for cooling or more often knocking off the bench to soak my feet. It worked quite well, I made a plywood stand for it so when on the bench it was a good height for me to see what I was doing, and as long as I concentrated it made a good job of keeping the tools sharp and also shortening them quite quickly if I ever lost concentration and had to rebuild my edge!
Then I got a lump of money, and was seduced into the world of jigs and Tormek removed some of the concentration and gave a very sharp tool with minimal loss of length. Problem with it is it needs setting up and stripping down so if I am out doing flat work and just want to turn a drawer knob but my spindle gouge is blunt I could do it freehand in moments on the record, or set up the Tormek and do it on that with jigs.
Then quite a while later I got seduced again by the Sorby ProEdge always ready, just flick the switch and away you go like the record power, but with the option of jigs and a fast positionable table like the Tormek, and the option at extra money of a diamond belt...
I didn't need it, BUT it was shiny, and at a tool show, and I played with it... So obviously I bought one! now I don't sharpen any tools any more, I simply polish the edge frequently so I don't have any tools that need sharpening as they all always are sharp. I have to say of all the shiny things that have led me astray in life, the ProEdge is one of the most useful ones.
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Next combatant indeed!!That would be me then Bill. I am the person that Pete referred to and my stance on sharpening is this. Never try to cut wood ith a blunt tool. Now we all have our favourite methods of sharpening our turning chisels, oddly those that have the most money appear to favour the most expensive methods (recently on facebook someone said he did not sharpen his own tools but sent them away for someone else to do it!)This is a very expensive option but, if you wish you may send your tools to me and I will sharpen them for you but it will cost you a small fortune and depending on how many of you ask me to do it I may not be doing it for much longer ( I may be retired and living in the Bahamas) If you go to my website:-
https://www.thebowlerhattedturner.co.uk/ you will see pictures of my sharpening system.This works for me as primarily it is cheap and simple to use, but the bottom line in sharpening is the repeatability of the angles that you sharpen at. Some woods are harder on the chisels than others and that is not always a species thing, so just because you are turning a softwood does not mean you don't have to sharpen up as ofetn, in fact for softwoods you get better results sharpening more often. Apart from the jigs I have made the only other jigs I use are the Sorby ones, I have found them to be quick and simple to use and so far I have never broken one.Other jigs are available but as I have never used them I cannot pass judgement on them. Keep your tools sharp and spend time at the lathe turning, that is the secret to becoming a good turner.
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While I cannot disagree with anything said on here about sharpening I am aware that a newbie person reading it can so easily be swamped by well meaning info and land up more confused than when he started.
Cutting through to the basics I would say that tools need to be SHARP AND PREDICTABLE in use. In my experience favoured angles, shapes, repeatability and everything else mentioned above will all fall into place in its own sweet time.
Brian
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While I cannot disagree with anything said on here about sharpening I am aware that a newbie person reading it can so easily be swamped by well meaning info and land up more confused than when he started.
Cutting through to the basics I would say that tools need to be SHARP AND PREDICTABLE in use. In my experience favoured angles, shapes, repeatability and everything else mentioned above will all fall into place in its own sweet time.
Brian
I would add to that for anyone new to turning ignore everything you hear about angles, find a brand of tools you like, and copy the shape / angle etc. of the new tool, it was shaped that way for a reason. Yes there are reasons for 43.768° and double bevelling the tool, though a lot of it depends on tool rest height and turner to lathe height proportion, there is plenty of time for experimenting down the line a bit.
Plus once the addiction takes hold, you will have plenty of tools to sharpen in weird and personal ways ;D.
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On the basis that most new turners want to learn to turn, and not have to learn to sharpen as well at the same time, I advise using jigs. Depending on budget I advise the Sorby ProEdge or the Sorby jigs for use with a bench grinder if asked. Folks have bought both systems and no ones come back to me and complained, quite the contrary. I’m quite happy with the results I get on my BDS250 but if I had the funds I think I’d go for the Axminster Ultimate Edge.
https://www.axminstertools.com/axminster-trade-ultimate-edge-variable-speed-sharpening-system-106232
I like the fact that this jig based system is variable speed and reversible. I also like the look of some of the jigs available for it.
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Gents , thanks for all of the advice.
I have a 6" grinder currently and I am thinking I might try this with a 6" CBN disc
https://www.toolstation.com/sip-07576-373w-8-x-6-wetdry-bench-grinder/p30131 (https://www.toolstation.com/sip-07576-373w-8-x-6-wetdry-bench-grinder/p30131)
I can also make a tool rest more or less exactly the same as they are bought as I am trying to keep to a budget. If the grinder were 8" I would be a lot happier but I am thinking for the budget I have and the skill that I have (I also don't drive a Ferrari...for many reasons!) I think this might get me to some reasonable sharpening.
Any thoughts before I hit the button?
Thanks again!
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All I ever needed
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Lazurus, what size disc are you using DxW ?
Thanks!
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Grinding wheel 150 x 40 x 15 mm
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My grinder will only accept a 150mm x 20mm. Do you think the 20mm is enough to properly sharpen a gouge? That's my only worry with this plan.
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20mm is fine, white or pink wheels are best.
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and how about CBN wheels? These seem to give really good results from what I read. Would you recommend if I can find one at a reasonable price?
Thanks again!
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For about the price of a 150mm CBN wheel you can buy an 8" grinder with the 40mm wide white stone (record power one is very good at £89 and often discounted, cheaper brands are available)
That extra diameter makes quite a big difference to the hollowing effect on the bevel, makes sharpening wider tools much more accurate, and will probably give superior results to a 6" CBN.
Then if you later upgrade that to a CBN you will have 630mm of cutting surface per revolution as opposed to 470mm
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Hi folks,
I have ordered a Record Power1 , I think this is the best solution for me, can't wait to get at it!
I am also going to make a sharpening jig, I have a basic pattern can use a computer sliding rail to adjust the dept. I will post the results when I get it complete.
thanks again everyone for all the sound advice, be well.
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The Robert Sorby jigs for bench grinders work well and I’ve seen several people copy the basic design to save cash.
https://www.robert-sorby.co.uk/media/wysiwyg/product_instructions/universal_sharpening_system.pdf
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Hi Guys,
Hope you are all keeping well.
Thanks Bill for that, I am playing around with a few bits and pieces to see what I can knock up. I will do a prototype first and then hopefully make a proper version.
TwistedTree - I got my Record 8" grinder and I am absolutely delighted with it! really nice piece of kit, very well made and a terrific price for the quality. Even working freehand I could get a way nicer finish on my gouges. I have been living in the dark for so long, I was doing such a bad job on sharpening.
Thank you all, I will let you know how the jog works out.