AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: GBF on August 24, 2019, 08:21:51 PM
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I have just been watching the news about the deforesting of the Amazon Rain Forests apparently it is at a rate of one football pitch a minute.
Somebody is buying this wood and it aint me.
I am not an eco nut but I do not see why anybody would buy exotics when we have plenty of beautiful woods in our own country.
I know somebody will justify it by saying I only buy sustainable certificated wood but how can you be sure that it is somebody is buying the stuff.
Regards George
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At the moment deforestation is due to the fires which some say are deliberate. Main cause though is to access oil and minerals there and the wood is mostly burnt odd or used as scrap lumber. A small amount actually gets onto the marlet as timber for use which is arguably worse. Personally |I feel tha there re enough amazing timbers available from the Uk without having to resort to exotics.
Pete
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George, I totally agree with you. Nothing else to add.
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I dont think that is strictly true Pete i was watching something about it recently and apparently they put in logging roads and remove thousands of tons of timber.
The authorities must know this is going on.
Regards George
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By exotics I assume you mean imported wood? If not, what classes as exotic? We are offered wood from all over the world.
I don't think it's a simple as saying if we all stop buying / using wood from the rainforests, they will be safe. Nothing could be farther from the truth! Many rainforest areas are being cleared to make way for agriculture, mining etc. and the trees may just be burnt to clear the way.
One product that seems to crop up over and over again is palm oil. This is being produced in areas that were once rain forest so perhaps we would do more to protect the rainforest by not buying food products that contain palm oil?
There is also the argument that if nobody buys the timber, the trees have no value so they are cleared to make way for something which does produce an income. Not buying wood may actually harm the resources we are trying to protect...
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I attended a demonstration a long time ago and the demonstrator definied an exotic timber as being "An ordinary timber that is a long way from home."
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Perhaps focusing on timbers taken from 'the wild' that are threatened might be simplest. It is quite simple to check the CITES status of anything you are unsure about. Mere rarity is not the only issue - sandalwood for example I think is mostly harvested from planted groves but is scarce because it is used for oil. But you can look about - I found Jarrah as an old railway sleeper very cheaply (it was definitely so used from the shoe marks but is very durable and still fine to use). And there are unusual but not rare timbers here - ivy for example and elder (very popular as wands for Harry Potter fans!).
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I fully understand the arguments and statements made. In my very humble opinion I trust the opinion of the very reputable companies that I buy my wood from. If they stop stocking it I will stop buying it, and I know this comment will attract differing opinions but there is not timber that matches African Blackwood for turnability and finish. If I wanted to get a painted finish I would make it out of plastic...whoops that is bad for the planet too. Home grown timbers are the best in the world for certain applications but sometimes only an exotic will do.
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That is interesting John What applications are the where only African Blackwood would do.
Regards George
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George
Woodwind instruments for example. You might be able to dye boxwood black but the sound might not be quite the same.
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George if I wanted a nice black finial African blackwood, in my opinion , cannot be betttered. Yes you could turn it out of Boxwood and dye it or stain it but to my eyes it will always look inferior to the real thing. I accepted that we should stop using Ivory in turnings as I do not wish for animals to die just to enhance a turning and there are now acceptable alternatives on the market, acceptable in price and in turnability, although some are still a bit of a challenge . The antiques industry (which I do work for)have also accepted alternative ivory so all is well there. But there is no credable alternative at the moment to Af Blackwood. When there is I may consider changing or as I said before, if my suppliers stop selling it I will not buy it. However I have to say that I treat it as a valueable commodity,it should be used sparingly and only on top quality pieces. Unlike one country which used to buy in Brazilian Mahogany to make shuttering plywood, the amount used in this country probably makes no difference. Also as Paul said if nobody buys the wood it has no value so might just aswell be burnt.
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I have to confess to having some exotics in my collection, though most of it is recovered salvage. 95% of the wood I turn is from UK sources, some of that is garden trees so maybe not a UK species.
I am guilty of exploiting the price point of Chinese plywood for my new workshop cabinets, low price has as much to do with the voids and paper thin layers, it is pretty shoddy product, I know that MDF is the same price, and made from sustainable woodwaste but it is just not the same.
I think the impact of turners on imported woods is a fraction of the problem, Cheap imported timber products e.g. furniture is where most of it goes.
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95% of my wood stock is homegrown woods where trees have been removed and are going to be just burnt or taken to the skip. The rest are woods that are from woodturners who have had to stop turning for health reasons. These in many cases have got the original stickers on them dating back so long ago. I also recycle very old furniture made of solid wood more for model making.
I can't remember the last time I went to a turning supplier or anywhere else to buy exotics for my hobby come to think of it I can't even remember the last time I brought any wood including homegrown. Call me a cheapskate if you like but I love free wood. ;D ;D ;D
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We all love free wood and I have my fair share of it. I also agree that woodturners, especially in this country do not contribute much to the destruction of the Amazon, although one tree taken illegally is enough. As long as the sources are protected ie certifiable stock as George mentioned I do not feel I am doing anything wrong. And yes I also agree that we cannot verify whether wood comes from a sustainable source or not but with FSC approval, Cites agreement and reputable companies , short of not buying any wood, which I think would be disasterous, we have done everything to ensure it comes from reliable people.
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Looking at the definition of Exotic ..google thanks
Exotic lumber is a somewhat difficult term to define as lumber native to one global region may be considered to be exotic in another, making the definition location specific. Other than the natural occurrence of lumber species in any given location, there are no other specific characteristic traits that apply to exotic lumber.
So to my woodturning friends in Brazil I have some Exotic Yew, Laburnum and Magnolia
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Firstly, I do second GBF's opinion that we have wonderful woods here in the UK. There are however situations where I see the use of small amounts of tropical hardwoods is justified, to provide an accent without having to use artificial colouring ( and I am not an enemy of colouring, it's just that some pieces call for natural colours).
With regards to the clearance of tropical forests, I do not think that even if all woodturners in the UK stopped buying tropical hardwoods it would make any difference at all. Where illegal logging is going, most of that wood goes into China for furniture, or is consumed locally for the same purpose (or for boat building or construction purposes). Illegal logging should not be confused with complete clearance, which is done to create space for farming, and in that case most likely the trees are just burned. Also, make no mistake: only a small percentage of trees in a tropical forest are actually valuable timber trees.
So if anyone wants to completely stop using tropical or exotic hardwoods to find peace of mind, go right ahead. Just don't delude yourself that it makes any difference to what happens all across South America, Sub-Saharan Africa or South East Asia.
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The biggest problem is not the waste of timber by harvesting for use but the environmental result of mass deforestation. The rate at which the tropical forests are being cut or burned down is nothing less than enironmentally criminal. Species of wild life becoming extinct and the consequnces on the pollution problem is horrific. We live comparitively comfortably here in western society and just see the occasional images but the fact of the matter is that we are fast approaching a point of no return. If not for ourselves then for our children and grandchildren we need to change our attitude. Use of 'exotics' for the small amout of decorative work we and other turners and cabinet makers do is not the problem it is the gross indifference from most of us the the real problem.
Climbs off hobby horse.
Pete
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To be honest I am not entirely against using Exotics i just dont find them more attractive than our own native timbers.
One thing I have noticed is when we start out on our Woodturning journey we all use a lot of exotics but as we move on we start to appreciate our native woods for one thing they are a damn site cheaper.
I did not start this thread to give Members a guilt complex I just thought it would be a thought provoking subject and I think it has been.
Regards George
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Hope that hobby horse was made from FSC timber :)
You are right, trees and timber are only indirectly related especially the interesting grain we tuners want, or the wide boards and repeating grain pattern that cabinet makers desire. Most of the destruction is fire to clear the land for palm oil or grass land.
But it is good practice not to be wasteful, and respect the attempts to control deforestation.
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George, you still haven't told us what you mean by "exotics".
Do you mean any imported wood?
Or wood from specific parts of the world?
Or just specific types of wood?
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I consider Boxwood to be an exotic.
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Decision made, I'm making no more purchases from Amazon until they put those fires out :P
Cheers Martin.
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George, you still haven't told us what you mean by "exotics".
Do you mean any imported wood?
Or wood from specific parts of the world?
Or just specific types of wood?
To me Exotics are woods from other country's that have traveled from all over the world and you cannot be 100% sure of the origin
I do not want to feel that the wood I am using might have contributed to putting some Tribe or animals out of a home unecessarly what others do is up to them.
Does that answer your question Paul
Regards George
Regards George
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If exotic means 'introduced from a foriegn country' what does that make some oak burrs I got froma friends woodpile in Spain?#Ron
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Oak burrs occur in this country as well, purple heart, ebony, gom[ncalo alves etc etc don't. Simple.
Pete
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Reading Goerges first post would it have been more a case of Imported woods rather than saying Exotic woods just thinking out loud.
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If exotic means 'introduced from a foriegn country' what does that make some oak burrs I got froma friends woodpile in Spain?#Ron
I think you know that is not what George is referring to. Timber from the Amazon, Asia, Africa etc. that may be taken illegally without consideration for re-planting often with massive destruction to surrounding new, or less valuable timber is one problem. Also timbers that are smuggled without pest control measures that bring disease into our native timbers (though that tends to be living saplings rather than cut timber) these things are a problem to the future of timber workers generally. While we as turners have very little impact on the global scale here, we do have a voice and a vote with our wallets option to do less harm to the infrastructure generally.
Also, why do we need them? As George said our native species are pretty damned impressive and thanks to Kew and the Victorian gardeners we also have quite a range of exotic timbers growing in English gardens to play with. Along with a pretty healthy stock of broken furniture, off-cuts from musical instrument manufacturers and other sources of exotics for enhancing a piece or repairing an antique.
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Ic you look around some of the traders who specialise in timber blanks you will often see a squre spibdle of timber with the ends turned round. It is usually a wood that is not allowed to be exported as a timber but can be exported if 'manufactured' and the turned ends get it around that clause. I have seen a few supposedly restricted woods for sale in that state, That has to be wrong?
Pete
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African Blackwood is a good example of that Pete the lumps they sell at Yandles are exactly that
Regards George
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If you look at the endangered species list ,the Cites list, African Blackwood is not listed.
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Twisted Trees has put it exactly as I meant it Thank you
Regards George
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If you look at the endangered species list ,the Cites list, African Blackwood is not listed.
No but it is regulated in its native country along with other woods.
Pete
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Doesn't African Blackwood come under the rosewood family, which is controlled under CITES appendix 2.
George, your definition of "exotics" could include pine because it is imported from a number of countries - Canada, Scandinavian countries etc. Also Oak, which is imported from various countries, Ash etc etc.
A separate question - most if not all the UK suppliers of turning wood claim to source their timber from "managed resources". Do we take that at face value? Should we expect more of them in terms of ethics by only sourcing wood which is from sustainable sources? This would exclude those part worked blanks done to circumvent local restrictions and timber from trees which could never be described as sustainable because they take so long to grow!
Should we follow the lead of food producer and advertise "wood miles" for the things we make and sell?
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You are keep asking questions Paul lets turn it around and tell us what you think I think you all know my views
Regards George
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Having spent 40 years in the food industry it is impossible to give even approximate "food miles" the definition is below
A mile over which a food item is transported during the journey from producer to consumer, as a unit of measurement of the fuel used to transport it.
The key word in the definition is producer yes you can do it on fresh singe item fruit and veg but not on any processed product
So the who is the producer the Logger, The Mill, or the producer of the blank or the person who turns the blank a and sells it at the local craft show.
Paul I am sorry but to even think of wood miles is crazy
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And food miles are notoriously dominated by the personal trips to the supermarket (because the load is small - whereas suppliers move in bulk). And surely the concern with wood is not transport energy anyway - sustainable timber from far away would be better than unsustainable locally. For energy concerns we might worry more about what we do with the shavings/offcuts (which weigh more than the final objects in my case anyway). Mine go as compost or fire fuel, though burning shavings is tricky, unless anyone knows of a good way?
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Doesn't African Blackwood come under the rosewood family, which is controlled under CITES appendix 2.
George, your definition of "exotics" could include pine because it is imported from a number of countries - Canada, Scandinavian countries etc. Also Oak, which is imported from various countries, Ash etc etc.
A separate question - most if not all the UK suppliers of turning wood claim to source their timber from "managed resources". Do we take that at face value? Should we expect more of them in terms of ethics by only sourcing wood which is from sustainable sources? This would exclude those part worked blanks done to circumvent local restrictions and timber from trees which could never be described as sustainable because they take so long to grow!
I have purchased palo santo (bulnesia sarmientoi) in the past and was given to understand that the part worked blanks was the only way in which the Argentinian authorities would allow the timber (not on CITES appendix 1) to be exported. In other words the people in the country of origin are in control, I think. More recently, much of this material has been ripped out to grow oil palm trees and the palo santo has been sold to China as building material. This sounds like double standards. How do we know, who should we believe ? This I learned from a person recently returned from living and working in Argentina, the only person I have met who recognised the stuff on my stand at a show.
ATB John
Should we follow the lead of food producer and advertise "wood miles" for the things we make and sell?
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......advertise "wood miles" for the things we make and sell?
That would work for me.....the bulk of my timber stock is sourced within a mile of my workshop, which is within 200metres of my shop. At best, I have sold bowls with a "wood mile" of 0.1" each.
Les
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Hi George,
The reason I keep asking questions is to find out exactly what you are calling "exotics". I don't think you have fully explained that yet.
I think I have put some of my views forward in my previous comments but I guess I would say we should try to use all wood responsibly and ethically. I have all sorts of native and imported timber from various parts of the world, much of which was bought as unused stock from other turners / woodworkers rather than from the retailers. Much of these were bought and stored many years ago and me using or not using them won't make any difference to the current world order. If I was buying new wood, I would consider where it came from and how that might impact the environment in the long term.