AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Paul Hannaby on June 05, 2019, 06:39:50 PM
-
I have been giving some thought to how best to critique turnings - both here on the forum and in person. Here are a few thoughts for discussion...
I think there is a need for anyone delivering a critique to do so sensitively so the maker isn't discouraged from having another go or from participating in future critiques. This doesn't mean you can't make negative statements but when doing so, perhaps put yourself in the shoes of the maker and ask yourself how you would feel if you were on the receiving end of the same statement and whether the same information can be conveyed in a more positive way.
I think it's also worth bearing in mind the circumstances around the creation of a piece - was it experimental? what was the maker's skill level? What else would influence how you critiqued the piece?
If we're honest, we can all benefit from hearing the thoughts of other makers and for self development, a critique may point out areas where further improvements could be made so I think we should be encourage forum users, club members etc. to ask for feedback. How can we best go about this?
The main areas I would consider are choice of wood / materials, shape, tooling, interaction of elements within the piece, finish and possibly function. Can you suggest other areas to look at?
-
I agree with you Paul. And compared to some forums I've looked at I think we are fairly good at it on the whole.
Not every piece got's a 'Oh that's wonderful', but generally constructive criticism is offered, hopefully in a kindly way. Occasionally a short comment, without further explanation is offered, but I have noticed that when further thought is applied, the original comment was not meant in the manor it first appears.
Would be difficult to add a bulleted list of the main point of your post as a Sticky to the AWGB News & Announcements page along the lines of the Forum User Agreement?
-
Paul,
there are a few articles giving guidance on critiques. Have a look at WT issue 297 which features some suggestions on critique for woodturners. The article also features two artists and their stories about critique.
John Plater also wrote a piece in WT302 on critique as well.
We have in Cheam Woodturners, just had a general discussion on critique and looked at various work by other turners. Members also had the opportunity to have their own work given a critique. Very interesting, I quite liked some of the comments/suggestions made about my own WIP piece.
Happy to offer assistance on this topic as both the AAW article in 2005 and the 2 WT pieces only cover a small part of the topic. I know there is a further piece awaiting publication which looks at critique from a different angle from previous articles.
BTW, I must thank all those woodturners who provided their thoughts for the WT297 article and especially to Ray Key for his thoughts on the topic.
-
I think it is difficult and probably an injustice to give a critiques on photographs of pieces with out seeing or holding the object. If you are critiquing a piece at a club as Paul says it it important to know the skill level or time being involved in turning but in saying that recently have seen a piece done by a novice that put a piece done by a professional demonstrator to shame .....but again that's in the eye of the beholder .
-
unfortunately it is only those who take the matter seriously that will even bother to read articles and guidelines on a subject like this. They are already likely to be the thoughtful, 'Helpers'. The 'Gushers' and the 'Stabbers' of this world will continue in their own merry way being no help to anybody, and even doing harm to some.
Brian
-
I for one enjoy having my work commented on whether I agree or not with the critique being given, most times others have seen something that I may have missed. I will give my thoughts on a piece and try to be mindful of the person to whom I am making the comment many here and on other forums I have got to know and know that I can be a bit harsher with them(not in a nasty way), but for those that I don't know I try to be a little more sensitive.
Sometimes I have to type out a comment more than once after reading it a few times as I am not always the best at putting things into the written word.
People have to realise that a comment on their piece is only the view of the person giving the critique.
I agree that you as a person giving the critique has to be aware of the person's capability whose work you are looking at.
I normally get roped in to judge at our club and am more than happy to discuss with members why I marked their piece the way I do.
I have like many have just put an "I like that" type of answer but only if I do like it. Sometimes I like a piece but have seen things that spoil the overall piece like finish and then I may start with something like "I like it, but for me xxx is wrong" in other words I like the design but have seen other things that have let the piece down"
-
Yes we could add a sticky to the top of the gallery with some guidelines on acceptable critique. I will see where this discussion goes - perhaps someone would like to draft a proposed guide for discussion?
Critiquing from a photo can only be limited to what you can see from the angle of the shot(s), which sometimes makes the job more difficult but generally, enough can be seen to at least give a feel for a piece and the overall shape.
BrianH, Nobody gets upset by the "gushers" but perhaps we can educate the "stabbers" so they approach the critique more sensitively rather than discouraging people from participating further!
-
My club has a week long exhibition over the bank holiday and has done so for many years, putting your turnings on show to the public is one of the best ways to judge how you are doing, and when someone pay to buy you piece you know you must be doing something right, I know the elation I got when some one paid £30.00 my first sale their critiquing must have wanted them to buy.
What is important is to give novice turners the encouragement to develop their skills and don't be backward in exhibiting your confidence will grow .
As an aside over the last few years we have managed to raise £11,000 plus for the air ambulance through our exhibition
-
I am sure most clubs (like mine Tudor Rose) have a table at each meeting for 'things made since last time' which is a source of excellent (& mostly sympathetic!) feedback. Also of ideas of course.
-
I don't have a local club close enough to me to get to very easily - coupled with young kids and busy life in general making it tricky to attend evening events. The opportunity to post work on this forum for critique from other members is useful for me as a learning tool, and I have had a lot of helpful comments on ways I might improve or alter pieces in order to improve them.
I think we need to remember how impersonal the internet can be. For me, this means I often take a little extra care over anything I write to make sure my language is clear and helpful. It also means that I take any comments and critique made about my work with an allowance for some comments sometimes seeming a little curt or impolite. I guess this is the price we pay for communicating via typed messages on a web forum rather than face to face!
-
Paul,
to help kick off the discussions, here are the 3 articles published on critique so far. There is a further article in the process of being published, which looks at critique from a different perspective.
David
PS also happy to share thoughts from the various turners from the UK, USA and Canada that helped in formulating the article in WT297.
-
Paul,
Here is JIm Christiansen's first article.
David
-
Paul,
Will try to post WT297 as a JPEG. PDF files too big.
David
-
How to critique other people's work without upsetting them is a challenge. But there is always something good to say if you look hard enough.To be good at critiquing I think you need to have some woodturning experience behind you so that you know how much time and effort has been put into the making. You need to be fair and impartial and scrupulously honest.A degree in diplomacy would be quite helpful too.
-
Critiques, I have a few of them :)
But for me I have a very simple set of rules, while taking into consideration the turners experience.
I simply start with the negatives as I see them and finish on the positives along with ample encouragement
-
I think something worth taking into consideration when commenting on regular posters is that they and the commenter may include banter about a piece which can be mistaken as harsh by the novice who has not been on the site very long and does not appreciate how we talk to each other. This could have the effect of putting them off posting work.
-
What I think would be useful is a short guide with bullet points on what to consider and what to avoid when giving a critique - any volunteers?
-
Well done Paul , much needed as some comments on here have been scathing >:(
Hopefully this will remind people to be respectful :)
-
I also discovered that the fastest way to end a discussion is to ask for a volunteer! ;)
-
Just about the worst thng you can do is look at the piece and say nothing!
Paul, have you only just worked that out?
-
Hi Paul,
I'm not sure what you mean by that, I was referring to the discussion in this thread, which seemed to stall when I asked for a volunteer to draft some guidelines.
-
That highlights the biggest problem with saying things online. I read Pauls post as two seperate comments, one as a reference to critique and one as a reference to the comment on asking for volounteers. Who is right? So easy to get the wrong idea.
Pete
-
The problem is the task of writing a simple bullet point list seems sensible, but there would need to be a library sized document for the exceptions.
However here it is....
Be honest
Be fair
Be tactful
-
Paul,
my take on a possible guidance for critiques is as follows:
C&C on my thought are welcome.
Pictures posted in here must be the works of the person posting.
General Guidelines
Any DEROGATORY or FRIVOLOUS post may be EDITED OR DELETED as necessary by the Forum Moderators.
If you want Comments or Critiques, please ask for them in your posting; e.g. ‘C&C appreciated’
But remember that some comments, while possibly meant for the good could still be uncomfortable to receive.
Not everyone or everything posted is to an expert standard. Many posters are new to woodturning looking for guidance or posting an experiment and looking for feedback.
Rules for posting a Critique
Be honest
Blunt ‘Put downs’ do no good for either the Original Poster or person replying.
Be fair
Be Constructive, what is seen to be wrong with it, how could it have been improved?
Be tactful
Not everything is perfect in ‘your eye’, but will be ‘right’ in someone else’s.
-
Not sure about the work having to be by the poster. If claimed as such I agree but sometimes it is a case of showing an example? It should however be with the original makers permission if still alive.
Hardest thing to get across in a critique online is when you re stating a personal preference as opposed to saying something isn't right. I would usually add IMHO if that is the case. I agree with adding C&C to a post but poster should also be prepared to accept criticism. I am perhaps fortunate in having someone who will honestly tell me if a piece is not good enough but not everyone has that so needs to be willing to accept others pointing out faults or ways of improvement if they ask for it. Worst thing is the 'Ooooh it's lovely' comments seen a lot on social media which are of no help at all (IMHO)
Pete
Pete
-
I also discovered that the fastest way to end a discussion is to ask for a volunteer! ;)
Thatwas me making two differtnt points.
Showing someone your work and getting no response at all can be disheartening at least.
Getting no response from asking for a volunteer is something I discovered years ago!
Ron
-
Pete,
Not sure about the work having to be by the poster. If claimed as such I agree but sometimes it is a case of showing an example? It should however be with the original makers permission if still alive.
I don't think you would post a picture of a piece and ask for C&C if it was not yours to start with, and I've never seen anyone do it, but thought I'd better cover that base anyway.
But a good point raised.
-
;) See that exceptions list is growing.... I was wondering about adding "Be helpful" to the original three but figured it was generally covered, and elaborated by dr4g0nfly in his post.
The aim of critiques in my personal view is to encourage all turners who ask, to be better. as Pete said 'Ooooh it's lovely' is not particularly helpful.
As for on here, it's very hard to get a real sense of the work in a picture so any critique is going to be a bit limited, but anything is better than nothing, and suggestions for improvements can only help raise the standard of all of us. Suppose I better put something in the gallery now :o
-
My comments on critiques or posting images of work are this:-
In the unlikely event that images of a 3rd party are posted no form of critique is acceptable, that person did not post their own work so you shouldn't post it either.
If you post images of your own work you should expect a critique whether you want it or not, if you do not want your work talked about don't post images of it.
If you feel the need to comment on another person's work do so politely, an abrupt one or two word answer is not acceptable in actual fact it is downright rude.
If you are serious about critiqueing work ,for everything that is pointed out to be wrong a positive or constructive comment should be left. So for instance instead of just telling someone they have turned a dog bowl (which we have all done in the past)tell the person that you prefer to see a "nice continuous curve which in fact is easier to produce rather than flat bottomed straight sided work." And I have to disagree with burywoodturners, yes it is not nice to have a piece looked at with no comments left but the old saying of"if you cannot say something nice say nothing at all" should stand. Some pieces beg a comment and others do not warrant it. If a piece does not attract comments it is then up to the person that posted it to ask for them (and then brace themselves!!)
Above all else, politeness costs nothing, if you cannot be polite do not bother commenting.
-
I am blaming you for today's dog bowl with the paper thin base.... fire will be lit tonight. ;)
-
I am blaming you for today's dog bowl with the paper thin base.... fire will be lit tonight. ;)
Don't burn it. Turn the bottom away altogether and you can use the part left in a variety of ways. Waste not want not LOL
Pete
-
;D ;D ;D You turned it not me!!
-
;D ;D ;D You turned it not me!!
I know ;D today was just one of those days when it was just not cutting right, just amused me that I read your dog bowl comment, thought yep done that... then did it again today! ::)
-
My comments on critiques or posting images of work are this:-
In the unlikely event that images of a 3rd party are posted no form of critique is acceptable, that person did not post their own work so you shouldn't post it either.
If you post images of your own work you should expect a critique whether you want it or not, if you do not want your work talked about don't post images of it.
If you feel the need to comment on another person's work do so politely, an abrupt one or two word answer is not acceptable in actual fact it is downright rude.
If you are serious about critiqueing work ,for everything that is pointed out to be wrong a positive or constructive comment should be left. So for instance instead of just telling someone they have turned a dog bowl (which we have all done in the past)tell the person that you prefer to see a "nice continuous curve which in fact is easier to produce rather than flat bottomed straight sided work." And I have to disagree with burywoodturners, yes it is not nice to have a piece looked at with no comments left but the old saying of"if you cannot say something nice say nothing at all" should stand. Some pieces beg a comment and others do not warrant it. If a piece does not attract comments it is then up to the person that posted it to ask for them (and then brace themselves!!)
Above all else, politeness costs nothing, if you cannot be polite do not bother commenting.
I find that comment somewhat harsh , A new timid turner would probably be put off by it , The AWGB art trying to promote woodturning not frighten people away .
-
Not intended to be harsh, and apologies if it came over like that, what was probably lost in the translation was that your work will be critiqued but the critique should be constructive not destructive. But I stand by what I said, if you do not wish your work to be commented on don't post it, why else would you post an image of something you have made? If you took it to the pub to show your mates you would expect them to say something about it wouldn't you? On woodturning forums we are doing the same thing but hopefully from an educated and informed (and sober :D) perspective. But we should never lose sight of a persons length of experience so perhaps when an image is posted you should say how experienced you are at turning.(Although some will be able to tell just by looking at the turning)
-
I would prefer someone to post a photo of their work and request no critique than not to post at all so I think they should have the right to choose.
If you read the sub-heading for the gallery, it already says "please state if you require a constructive critique" and it has done so for several years! Obviously, virtually nobody seems to check if someone has asked for a critique before wading in!
Keep the suggestions coming...
-
I would prefer someone to post a photo of their work and request no critique than not to post at all so I think they should have the right to choose.
If you read the sub-heading for the gallery, it already says "please state if you require a constructive critique" and it has done so for several years! Obviously, virtually nobody seems to check if someone has asked for a critique before wading in!
Keep the suggestions coming...
I see what you are saying Paul, it would be a shame if say a new turner posted a picture with a flaw that could be corrected with some simple advice and none was offered, but they should have the right to post and not get comments.
I stand by my Honest, Fair, and Tactful simplified list with helpful getting wrapped up in fair.
I am capable of knocking out 100 production pieces that are visibly the same, I am also capable of creating a one off piece that is stunning original and pleasing, then there are days like today when all I do is create poorly patterned firewood.
I mostly like to look at the gallery for stealing design ideas, but if I critique in future I will double check it has been asked for, and try to be positive but honest.
-
Twisted Trees yes they should have the right to post and not get comments but you know that in this day and age people will either not read or not adhere to the rule. I stand by my previous comments.
-
All good ideas - club comments from people who have held the piece are particularly helpful.
But my sixpence worth would focus on two ideas:-
1 - distinguish between the design and the fabrication. I tend to do experimental pieces that I may lack the skill to do as perfectly as I would like first time anyway, but I still welcome comments on whether more effort on this design is worthwhile!
2 - I have noticed since doing woodturning (I have done other woodwork for many years) that turners tend to place very great emphasis on fabrication details that matter little to final users. We all (including me) tend to feel the centre of a bowl base for example, and some people worry a lot about chucking points being visible, even if they are just a nice neat depression in the base that the final user will think fine! So perhaps selling is the best test - could AWGB do online auctions?!
-
AWGB online auctions wouldn't work for two reasons.
- Woodturners homes are already full of turned items
- I along with many other turners are design thieves, we see it, touch it, then make our own version
I am not a professional turner, but I do like my workshop to be self funding. Most of what I sell is not artistic in any way, and I would have no desire to upload photo's of it here. I am giving my workshop a makeover at the moment, new extraction, new lathe, all new cabinets, 95% funded by crappy light pulls that take moments to make, use scraps, and sell by the truck load once you find the outlets.
-
Design is always going to be a matter of personal taste to some extent so easy to critique as long as it is made clear that it is personal opinion. Quality of workmanship however is a bit more specific and where a lot of the problems arise as we all make things that we are proud of initially but on reflection, or critique notice aren't as good as we thought. I do agree that first hand critique is far better than online which is based on a photograph.
Pete
-
Perhaps if an experimental piece or a piece still in construction was posted and the person that posted it said as much or mentioned how long thy had been turning or I only get to turn however often ,then those commenting will have a better idea of the standard to expect.
As a professional turner, ie one who earns all of his income from turning I should be expected to turn out good quality work. Which I like to think I do. However something else that has to be taken into consideration is where is your work sold and for how much. Certain parts of the country will attract a lower rate of pay than others but the production costs are still virtually the same, so the choice then may be to produce more in a shorter time and sell them cheaper. In that situation a critique of a person's production woud be completely different to a critique of the same persons special or one off.
-
AWGB online auctions wouldn't work for two reasons.
- Woodturners homes are already full of turned items
- I along with many other turners are design thieves, we see it, touch it, then make our own version
I am not a professional turner, but I do like my workshop to be self funding. Most of what I sell is not artistic in any way, and I would have no desire to upload photo's of it here. I am giving my workshop a makeover at the moment, new extraction, new lathe, all new cabinets, 95% funded by crappy light pulls that take moments to make, use scraps, and sell by the truck load once you find the outlets.
Perhaps an understandable assumption if your main line is light pulls but the last online auction held by the AWGB was extremely successful and some pieces were sold for 4 figure sums. There is another online auction starting next week and we are hoping that will be equally successful given the provenance of the pieces for sale. Take a look at www.the-saleroom.com (https://www.the-saleroom.com) from Tuesday the 2nd of July.
For something like an online auction to work, there has to be a selection of lots which are going to appeal to serious buyers and collectors.
Bringing this back to the critique process, I have handled and inspected all of the pieces which will be in the auction and exhibition and probably subconsciously critiqued them. There are some I think are amazing and some I don't like but even the ones I don't like have merits on the artistic and craftsmanship levels so I can appreciate them for what they are even if I wouldn't choose to have them on my shelf! At some point, I think the person doing the critique has to try to put their own preferences to one side and to appraise the piece fairly and honestly.
I think even a light pull can be critiqued - it should satisfy the three F's (form, finish and function) and ideally should represent an acceptable quality of workmanship.
-
Paul, point taken but the majority of the buyers will be "real people" not fellow woodturners, so while quality and design are key to the sale price, it is outside the scope of the critique we are talking about here. I can sell light pulls not because I make them better than anyone else, but because I got lucky and found a route to shift them in quantity. never spent a full day making them as I do get bored after a couple of hours but can in theory create a lot in a week.
On design, some of my best prices have been creating other peoples designs e.g. lamps, legs etc. which I personally dislike intensely but abranet is expensive so sometimes the customer is always right!
I am lucky enough to have another source of income to cover my beer bill, but would rather burn my work than undersell it as others need the prices and value at a reasonable level to cover the cost of living.
My personal favorite pieces are quite quirky, I like 'damaged' wood part turned, part natural, I like fruit bowls heavy enough not to tip over when fruit is put in it, and I love mallets to make and use. I get quite excited when someone wants a handle for a vice... ridiculously simple, but I know it will be used and that gives me a good feeling when I make it. Most of that I would not want to post photo's of, I will post some over the coming years, but they will probably not be my routine pieces and possibly not my best work as that is usually a commission and is almost never photographed.
If I want a critique, it is probably because I am unsure about the piece.
-
"I am lucky enough to have another source of income to cover my beer bill, but would rather burn my work than undersell it as others need the prices and value at a reasonable level to cover the cost of living." Good for you for thinking like that, well done, I wish more turners did the same.
-
"I am lucky enough to have another source of income to cover my beer bill, but would rather burn my work than undersell it as others need the prices and value at a reasonable level to cover the cost of living." Good for you for thinking like that, well done, I wish more turners did the same.
Agree. One of my pet hates is people selling their work for cost of materials. Undermines the skill etc of the craft totally.
Pete
-
"I am lucky enough to have another source of income to cover my beer bill, but would rather burn my work than undersell it as others need the prices and value at a reasonable level to cover the cost of living" . . . . . . . Bravo. I hate to see people selling work 'for the price of the wood' to 'fund' their 'hobby'. Well said !!!