AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Philip Greenwood on July 02, 2015, 03:19:47 PM
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Should Clubs provide a screen for the demonstrator. I know around half of the clubs I have been to do not have a screen between the lathe and the audience. This means no protection to the front row of the members at all. Would it not be a good idea for all clubs to provide this as standard.
If I take my lathe to a show or demo a screen is always attached to my lathe stand. This is part of my risk assessment. If I failed to proved a screen I am sure my insurance company would void my insurance. Who is going to responsible at the club if no screen is provided, the club or the demonstrator.
Philip
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Hello Philip,you have answered your own question here. If a risk assessment requires the use of a screen then the demonstrator in question should use one.
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I think It's up to both the club and demonstrator to do a risk assessment and based on the identified risks, take appropriate precautions. I would suggest the use of a screen would depend on what was being turned and how it was being turned. For example, if you were turning something the size of a light pull, how much damage would it actually do if it hit someone sitting 10 feet away? Try the same for a scenario where you were turning an 18" bowl and the outcome might be different.
Some clubs approach the problem from a different angle by leaving a gap in the seating so if something did come off the lathe and head towards the audience, it would pass through the middle without making contact with anyone.
Perhaps also worth considering here is who is in the audience. In the case of a public demonstration, viewers could be people with absolutely no idea of the hazards of woodturning so a screen would act as a physical barrier, preventing them from coming into contact with the rotating machinery and workpiece. Conversely, in a club environment could it be assumed that the members of the audience were aware of the potential hazards and would act differently as a result. i.e. they wouldn't get too close to the lathe while it was in use.
I don't think there is a one size fits all answer to this one!
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yes, no and possibly, I have seen screens used and chippings and shrapnel have been flying over the top into the eyes of onlookers with some turning away to take the bits out of their eyes, so in that instance the screen was of little use. Consideration of the processes being used/demonstrated should for my thinking also be considered and a screen not seen as a licence to do anything as such a technique may negate the fact that a screen is located in the first place.
If a sound piece of wood is being turned at a low speed taking into account that a shield is not in place with the audience (sat down) a suitable distance then it may be appropriate to turn, if you can show you thought about the risks and addressed them IE using sound wood, simple project as low speed then you may be ok. Thing is the safest way to prevent any injury is not to turn or switch the lathe on but that is the ridiculous end of the spectrum so assessing the risks means that a single cover all assessment may not be suitable.
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ha ha John and Paul replied just as I hit send, however it appears we are thinking along the same lines. :) :)
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There have been numerous threads on here about the need for glass inserts in tealights, the answer always being that needed or not you should probably use them to be on the safe side.
Why is this any different ?
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The main reason to ask this question about screens was to receive the view point from other demonstrators, and also from clubs. I have been to one club and the seats on the front row was only 3' or 1m from the lathe, no screen. I like other demonstrators will ensure the safety of other at all times.
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For most of my Demo's I turn the lathe at a right angle to the audience as most of the work you do is then facing them and with the tailstock removed they can see quite clearly every detail of what is happening and if anything does come off it will not be going towards the audience. The only time a lathe needs to be parallel to they audience is when spindle turning and the risk then is minimal.
Regards George
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There have been numerous threads on here about the need for glass inserts in tealights, the answer always being that needed or not you should probably use them to be on the safe side.
Why is this any different ?
Graham this is an entirely different scenario. We know that you should not leave candles unattended but people do and so we negate the risks of fire breaking out due to an unsupervised candle. An experienced woodturner/demonstrator will understand the risks of his/her particular demonstration and take steps to reduce any perceived dangers to themselves and others, in effect they will carry out a risk assessment. If that risk assessment deems it necessary to have a screen then a screen should be used. IMHO it would be a necessity if the demonstrator is a novice demonstrator or has limited experience at turning, in which case he/she should not be demonstrating I know, but it does happen.
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Also if you are demonstrating, as I do occassionally0 the sort of things I make you know that there is a chance of something breaking and coming flying off. When doing it in a public place e.g. shoews etc I always have a screen and stop the curious coming around to see from the side. At clubs when you are using the clubs equipment screens are rarely provided and I always make sure thatthe nearest row is far enouigh away and state at thee beginning that things may fall apart if I am doing that sort of thing. I do also have a way of making sure that if something does break it is relatively safe. Bottom line, if you are demonstrating I believe it is your responsibility to ensure the safety of the audience, not the clubs or other venues. I am insured for demos etc but if I didn't have some sort of risk assessment and take suitable safety precautions I doubt it would be valid.
Pete
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Mmmm
If I were sat in the the audience and was killed by a flying bit of wood I am sure SWMBO would be comforted by the fact that you have insurance. :)
Screens have been invented, why nor use one ?
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If you have insurance Graham you make darn sure that you set up all the necessary precautions so that you aren't liable. When demonstarating at a club, to a certain extent H&S is a mutual responsibility and both demonstrator and the club should make all possible arrangements to assure safety of everyone. Doesn't always happen though. I am not suggesting that if insured don't worry, trust me I am not quite that callous.
Pete
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I wasn't aiming anything at you Pete, my post just happened to follow yours.
Actually I think George has the right answer to this.
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While I fully agree screens should be used if deemed, but I can't help wondering if people think the risk is so great that they will be caused serious injury (which if the club and demonstrator has taken into account all necessary precautions would not happen) then why do people sit at the front close to the lathe and are more interested in seeing what is going on than their own safety. ??
Of course I fully understand that some may not fully be aware of any dangers especially if they are new to turning, so for my way of thinking it should not only be the demonstrator who addresses the H&S of the members but also the Chairman/committee of the club. Example of this is when I go to my local agricultural show to watch the White Helmets motorcycle display team, it isn't the display team that have to erect the substantial wooden fence to protect the public but the organisers, the display team are there to demonstrate their skills, so is it not also up to clubs to supply safety screens/good quality video and screens so people do not have to get so close. ?
Screens aside, should demonstrators stop people picking up their tools in case they cut themselves, or merely hold them at a distance and tell them not to touch. What about the pieces on display, what if someone drops a form and someone else steps back onto it, trips over knocking into people who then spill there hot drinks over the electrics on the floor. ??
Apologies Philip the last bit is going off track, but it gets my goat that H&S is often voiced as 'someone else's fault I got injured'.
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I.E mark, where do you draw the line. Perhaps that sadly lacking human trait of 'common sense' is needed? With so much H&S ruling everywhere perhaps people don't feel that they need to think for themselves anymore?
Pete
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Oh I think people think for themselves all right. They think 'If I get injured I can sue'.
When you look at all the daft things club officials have to take into account it is a wonder there are still clubs about.
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Oh I think people think for themselves all right. They think 'If I get injured I can sue'.
When you look at all the daft things club officials have to take into account it is a wonder there are still clubs about.
You're right Graham, some people even go out looking for injuries so they can sue, as you say for this I asked the question if it is not thought by the clubs that they should make sure a screen is being used/supply one/ or not allow the demo to proceed as I am sure if anything happened it would not only be down to the demonstrator, probably the club's safety policy would be looked at too, not saying I am right just posing the question.
Best to stay at home :) at least then I can claim off the wife when I trip over her slippers. :)
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I.E mark, where do you draw the line. Perhaps that sadly lacking human trait of 'common sense' is needed? With so much H&S ruling everywhere perhaps people don't feel that they need to think for themselves anymore?
Pete
Unfortunately Pete I think you need to draw the line a lot sharper than it is now. As Graham has said, if some one gets injured they will soon instigate proceedings especially if they think they can get money for it, whether they win or not is a different matter, but who wants the stress of that. So my example of letting people pick up your tools was a valid point, as is using a fast grinding wheel in public without those nearby being given a face shield, how many people take grinders to demo's, what if the wheel explodes ??
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I have been to around 15 demos so far (not a lot, I know) and there wasn't a screen on any of them. Although from a safety perspective they are the right thing to do, if a club cannot afford decent video equipment, the screen can render the demo useless, if it is made from cheap plastic which distorts the view.
The insurance isn't there to absolve clubs and demonstrators from their duty to assess the risks and then take action, it's there to cover some of the damage in case something goes wrong despite the care taken. I work in a company where H&S is taken very seriously, because we have accidents every year, and most years somebody gets killed on the job (construction industry). The aim really is to imbue people's thinking so that safety is no longer something you have to actively consider, it's a natural part of how you do your job. Since we work in a similar environment, and the demonstrators are the professionals (not the audience), I would say it is mostly the demonstrator's responsibility to at least give everybody a short lecture at the start of the demo, which may well include advice such as "Be careful when handling my tools, they are sharp". Once said, it then is everybody's common sense that needs to take over, and the demonstrator (and the club) should be off the hook.
Sadly, this subject, similar to many others, is tainted by a few people who cannot or will not accept responsibility for their own actions, and then seek compensation from others for their own stupidity.
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Thanks for all the replays, so far.
Its always difficult to get the balance right. At clubs screens can get in way of the people seeing what you are doing unless you have a very good camera person. I think some member like to be at the front to see every cut you make to see the technique being used rather look at the monitor.
Do I alter my demo at a club that does not provide a screen, no because I know I will never do anything that would put members at risk. Ok timber can have voids in the centre but you can tell by the sound long before a problem could occur.
Mark any comments are welcome. If I had a pound for ever time my tools were pick up I would not need to work anymore. At time I think I am at more risk then the members when I look at the floor around me and see all the cables around my feet.
We all go to enjoy ourselves and learn as well, yes I have to think about H&S but I use common sense like I hope most people do.
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The question was should clubs provide screens, and could equally be posed as should demonstrators provide screens.
The answer in theory is yes but in practice no.
So much for a risk assessment as against assessing the risk.
For public demos the answer is yes. (But be aware of small boys poking their heads round to get a better look)
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Those of you that have been to one of my demos will have seen me talking about the reverse run grinder that I use to sharpen my skew chisels on. Some may also be aware that I now include the warning about cutting yourself when I pass the freshly ground skew around the audience. Although I demonstrate how sharp it is by shaving hair from my arm there are those that obviously do not believe me and have to run their thumb across the blade apart that is from the person that shall remain nameless who ran his thumb ALONG the blade slicing his thumb open and causing a wound that required stitching.
I still pass the skew around but by giving the warning not to and explaining why, I now feel that I have taken all necessary steps to prevent a similar injury short of not passing the tool around in the first place. So in effect I carried out a risk assessment which I now put in operation every time I do that particular part of the demo.
I once saw a demonstrator at a show make a small box and there was the young lad stood dutifully behind the screen watching, at the end of the demonstration the turner walked around to the front to show what he had made and blew on the box promptly blowing dust into the young man's eyes. What price a screen then?
Health and safety is everyone's responsibility whether you are demonstrating or watching or even if you have just walked into the room. You cannot go through life with your eyes closed and your thumb up your b*m and your brain in neutral because the laws of nature will dictate who survives unscathed and who does not.
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For public demos the answer is yes. (But be aware of small boys poking their heads round to get a better look)
The better shows require a risk assessment when applying. It isn't just small boys either, plenty of adults, including other turners who think they can come behind the screen to see what you are doing. Almost as annoying as the ones who stand there taking photos of your work without asking and get offended if you ask why but that's a nother topic for another thread.
pete
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You cannot go through life with your eyes closed and your thumb up your b*m and your brain in neutral
Oh but John, its so comfortable.
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;D ;D ;D