AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mark Sanger on June 12, 2015, 11:52:16 AM
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Hi all
I know I will probably being lighting the touch paper here :) but I have very much enjoyed reading Revolutions lately and in particular the subject/article in relation to the cost of demonstrations. Often it is heard and discussed about the travelling fee of 45p/mile and the resulting cost some demonstrators are charging.
Just wondering what your thoughts are, do you think people should be charging 45p/mile as a travelling fee to pay for running costs, depreciation of works vehicles etc that a demonstrator uses ?
Or do you think this should be paid by the demonstrator ? my plumber who lives less than a mile away from me has an automatic £50 call out fee. Now don't get me wrong, we generally don't need woodturners, certainly they are not the first people I think of when I have a water leak or I can't flush the loo, ummm well, on occasions may be not ;D
Do you think a demonstrator if they are turning for a living to charge you for the half day it takes to get ready for the demo and the half day it takes to get the workshop back square again and the loss of production time for this, or do you think this should be also free.
Great to have your thoughts, no you won't hurt my feelings as you may be surprised at my thoughts on demo's and the profit margin involved, and some of you may know the reason I have cut back hugely on demo's and all but stopping evening demo's except for a few clubs within 30 minutes of me.
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I suppose it depends on which side of the fence you're sat on (I'm in the middle lol), but I do know that my car costs over 14p per mile for sure. I think this is a debate that will have endless points of view. I suppose it's up to the turner if he/she's willing to travel at a reduced rate, I completely understand where you're coming from with regards to "lost production time" thought, I suppose it's down to the individual and what type of vehicle they use, and how there currently work load is.
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I was in fact tempted to reply by letter to the editor of revolutions, but since he presumably reads this anyway, it will save me the postage.
The writer of this article argues that he had a job where many of these expenses (in time or money) had to be borne by himself, and this was simply the way it was expected in his job, and therefore (self employed) wood turners shouldn't charge for this time etc., lest otherwise we end up with clubs not being able to afford demonstrations.
I would hold against this. Firstly, a business is an undertaking where the customers and the business both benefit from the work undertaken. If the turner can only charge for part of his time/expenses, then ultimately he will go out of business. In fact, if he can only charge for expenses, but not make a profit, the same happens.
Secondly, I am not aware of many modern businesses who get away with not reimbursing their employees for expenses in full (mind you, justified expenses!).
Thirdly, the author argues that if clubs had to pay for all of this, then the membership fees would go up, and he even gives an example of, I believe, 32.50 for a given club size and number of demonstrations. Now I do realize that many club members are retired and therefore have reduced income. However, if you compare this number to what golf clubs or other clubs charge for membership, then I'd think that wood turning is a very affordable hobby.
Plus: at least one of the clubs I am a member of charges separate fees for demonstrations, on the day. If you don't want to pay, or you cannot afford it, then reduce the number of days you're going.
Yes, we all have to live within our means, but that should not mean that we should deprive the few of us who make a living out of wood turning from their income. In fact, I believe this would be very detrimental to wood turning in the long run.
Plus: there is competition here. If one turner charges 200 for a full day, and another charges 250 or 300, then the one with the higher price will have to show something extra, something special, so that clubs will want to pay that premium to get him on their premises. It's like tickets for concerts. If you want to see the Rolling Stones, you have to fork out £100 or more. If all you can afford is £10, then all you're going to get is the local cover band. They're probably good, but they're not the Rolling Stones. And they also want to make a living.
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The 45p per mile is to cover costs of fuel, wear and tear on the car etc and is the guideline laid down by the government (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rates-and-allowances-travel-mileage-and-fuel-allowances/travel-mileage-and-fuel-rates-and-allowances). It was 40p until 2011 then went up.Those like Mark, myself and others who are doing woodturning as their sole means of earning a living have a right, I believe, to try and run their business as efficiently as possible. If you are a well known turner with a good reputation then it is because you have earned it and should expect to be paid more perhaps but those of us at the bottom of the ladder should still be able to expect at least a basic fee including mileage allowance as stipulated by the tax people. If my mileage per year increases to beyond 10,000 miles a year then I should drop it to 25p but I don't see that happening any time soon.
In contrast I did a demo at a club earlier this year and got told off for charging too little and was given twice the actual demo fee I had asked for. Only happened once LOL.
Pete
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I feel that whoever is demonstrating is supplying a service to the members of the club that employed them. They are given a quote of what the costs will be at the time of making the booking, if these costs are to expensive then do what you do when the garage gives you a quote for repairs, suck it up or go somewhere else!!
There are many woodturners out there who are very good but the ones that earn a living at it are good too, why should their skills be undervalued? If I drive to a venue for 3 1/2 hours each way who pays for the time it takes? It is my opinion that you are getting a good service on the cheap already.
Think what the costs would be if self employed woodturners worked for a company. A few years ago I had time off from turning and worked for another firm, they charged me out at £250 per hour and that role included demonstrating a process so yes you get off lightly IMHO.
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Hi Mark,
I have no intention of hurting anyone's feelings here are a few of the things from the side of a Club Secretary for Demonstrators to consider.
1.The costs per mile seemed to increase when the price of fuel increased and rightly so (Fuel is now cheaper) ???
2. Taking your analogy of the plumber I bet he arrives with all the tools for the job quite a lot of the demonstrators need the Club to supply the lathe for the Demo in most cases this is fine we had one Demonstrator who wanted a VB36 another wanted an extra £50 to bring his own lathe we meet at a Village Hall and cannot leave any equipment the so we have an Axminster M330 lathe which is portable.
3.Some Demonstrators bring equipment for sale that's fine it often benefits the members one even set up a shop once with someone to run it.
4. I have had Demonstrators say to me part of the demo is the passing of knowledge and the involvement of the audience.
5. We have had Demonstrators cancel at very short notice even after we have sold a number of advance tickets.
Regards John
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Interesting topic!
Fees charged by golf and other clubs as against woodturning club fees - I think most people would understand the higher costs as they can see tangible assets that they use in return for their fees. Not quite so with woodturning - they see a small venue, light refreshments and sometimes a demonstrator. I guess this in comparison with golf and others, does make woodturning seem affordable.
Mileage costs are always a consideration when booking demos and does restrict who we will ask to appear at the club. This means we can sometimes get the same names coming along because they are within a reasonable distance.
John Smith makes the point that fuel charges are now cheaper but the 45p per mile rate has not been reviewed to take account of this.
I like the cheek of the demonstrator who wanted the club to supply a VB36 and the one who charged to bring his own lathe!! I guess neither of these is doing much demonstration work. We usually supply a lathe and if the demonstrator wants to bring their own, that;'s fine with us. We have had only one request for a specific piece of kit which we supplied as the turner was well enough know to warrant the trouble of sourcing the item.
We too have had last minute cancellations but the turner concerned supplied a good alternative so the club was not let down (too much).
Most clubs have a restricted budget for demonstrations which has to be added to standing costs (venue hire, insurance etc) to arrive at the total outgoings. Working out a break-even membership sub is mathematically straight forward but you have to balance it against the disposable income of your members. Pitch too high and you lose membership. and members are difficult enough to retain at the best of times.
BHT's comment that we are getting a good service on the cheap already will not please most events secretaries!!
It would be interesting to see how other crafts fare with demonstrator costs - we can't be alone in the craft world with this problem.
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What a bag-full of contentious issues this is! I have been attending my wood-turning club for a couple of years, becoming its treasurer early this year, so I have a little experience from both the point of view of an audience member and as a procurer of demonstrators. It has to be said that in my estimation of value-for-money, there is an extensive range from best to least good. Some demonstrators cram a massive amount into their time, whilst others fit in far fewer pieces of work. Some have inherent skills of managing their audience, whilst others struggle. Some have a natural, friendly delivery which keep the audience interested, others not so. Thus, Mark, to enter into any debate about value for money from the demonstrator, one would have to name names and get rather personal, but this is not the place for such a strategy.
Then, of course, there's the debate about travel expenses. As Pete MJ mentioned earlier in the thread, there is a fixed figure proposed and recommended by HMG, in which case I really don't think that any club member could justifiably complain when a professional claims that amount.
I can understand how the average person, who uses their car to get to work each day, might feel hard-done-by when a woodturner does just that, and gets paid extra for doing it. Let's just be honest about this....who amongst us would not charge the going rate if we were put into the demonstrator's shoes?
Les
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There is a difference between "travelling to work each day" and travelling to do a demo. I think the tax rules prevent claiming for mileage to travel to your usual place of work but doing a demo or travelling to a location much further away is definitely not the same thing and incurs extra cost to the business, hence the tax allowance.
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i think the demonstrator should give a price for each demonstration based on its own circumstances, a break down of costs shouldnt be needed, i have driven 1500 mile this week for 3 jobs each job quoted, i never break down costs.
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Please don't get me wrong we do have certain Demonstrators who do us a great and entertaining Demonstrations and value for money after all we know what the costs will be and I consider when we accept that is making a contract with them but there are others you don't always know what you are getting in the way of value. this year one of the Demonstrators gave us an assessment form to complete and return to the Register of Professional Turners this was a First for me in 10 years how many do this?
Regards John
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Please don't get me wrong we do have certain Demonstrators who do us a great and entertaining Demonstrations and value for money after all we know what the costs will be and I consider when we accept that is making a contract with them but there are others you don't always know what you are getting in the way of value. this year one of the Demonstrators gave us an assessment form to complete and return to the Register of Professional Turners this was a First for me in 10 years how many do this?
Regards John
I hear what you are saying John and agree, not being a member of the RPT I am not bound by their terms, you certainly raise a valid point, I think you can download the forms from the website to fill in but not sure how it goes now as I have not been part of it from some years.
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Hi all
Thank you for you comments, it is interesting to get both sides, secretaries, professionals and club members opinions.
For me from my perspective there is only one answer to this issue and that is I make good profit on my time. It may be the case that it is perceived that demonstrators make good money for an evening or day demo, when people see a cheque written out for £250 for an evening demo or £400 for a day add to this sales of tools etc as John highlighted and you can perhaps walk away with £600-£800 gross takings and of course immediately the demonstrator is rolling in money. :) :) or are they ? This I will hopefully get onto later.
Of course, or at least I believe it to be that no one earns a great deal of money from woodturning, ok you can earn good money for your time and rightly so much and I am not complaining at all as the fullness of life is not felt from earning loads of money, enjoying the process is far more important at least for me it is, but the bills still have to be paid.
Driving if it is part and parcel of any business will be included into the fee as not only running cost but depreciation of the vehicle should also be included, bit daft if after five years of using a works vehicle you suddenly have to purchase a new one at £5000-£8000 and you have not included this in the business overheads. There is also depreciation on every tool and supplementary tool used, computer, printer, toner, paper etc, etc etc etc anti virus software if you run a computer for work and have to reply to emails for work such as demo's, teaching and selling, this is all included by my accountant in my costings, right down to the glue stick, stamps and pencils.
Certainly I am not disagreeing with anyone's thoughts here but I wonder for the secretaries, club organizers or any one else for that matter;
as a professional person doing a full day demo what do you feel is a 'reasonably' price including everything for a days demo including preparation and post work, £240- £300 -£400 ? what do you believe is value for money ?
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i think the demonstrator should give a price for each demonstration based on its own circumstances, a break down of costs shouldnt be needed, i have driven 1500 mile this week for 3 jobs each job quoted, i never break down costs.
I agree Steve, I am sure you have included this time and cost to get the work in your fee, I am sure you have not given this for free. One consideration with demo's if that if I am asked to demonstrate for a club a long way away then I can not give a blanket fee for the ones only 10 miles away as they will not supplement the long distance demo's and nor should they.
On occasions customers do ask for a break down of costs especially if they are getting quotes from elsewhere, this from my good lady who works in the interior business happens on a regular basis, people even want to know how much the glue costs, but then they are paying a lot more than a woodturning demo fee :)
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There is a difference between "travelling to work each day" and travelling to do a demo. I think the tax rules prevent claiming for mileage to travel to your usual place of work but doing a demo or travelling to a location much further away is definitely not the same thing and incurs extra cost to the business, hence the tax allowance.
Yep :) and as you are aware Paul we also include the cost of going to collect the wood that is used in a demo, or at least I do as it doesn't arrive by itself of process itself on the band saw. Regularly on a day demo I would make 5 projects from boxes, bowls, hollow forms so you are looking at £40 upwards from the start especially if seasoned prepared blanks re being used.
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Hi Mark - thanks for the above reply to my post - i guess your right about people asking, but i think its wrong for somone to ask you how you came to a costing, a demo many miles away should be more, but how you calculate it is up to you and shouldnt be questioned.
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Hi Mark - thanks for the above reply to my post - i guess your right about people asking, but i think its wrong for somone to ask you how you came to a costing, a demo many miles away should be more, but how you calculate it is up to you and shouldnt be questioned.
Thanks Steve, it is and I guess will always be debated just as with any business cost, I do believe as I am sure you will that we as business people work in partnership with our customers, if there is no demand we are up the creek, if there is not the skill available then the customer can't get the job done so I believe we rightly need each other.
It is quite interesting that recently I was politely criticized by another turner on the circuit that I do not charge enough but I am happy with what I earn and I am very busy, better to have a bird in the hand so to speak. :) But I won't buy work as I am fortunate not to have to, but by the same token I won't kick the rear end out of it either.
I do feel partly, just as the article in Revolutions points out that if prices keep going up then people will not be booked by clubs and this won't help the craft, so on the other side of the coin we as turners have to decide if we want the work for a reasonable return for our time or want no work for a higher price, after all it is only turning. :) :)
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While I can see both sides of the story, it does puzzle me a little. Stretching Mark's plumber analogy a little further, if you need a plumber you ask friends for recommendations, get a quote and either go for it or not. Good plumbers charge more and are always busy. As a turner and demonstrator I have worked hard to build my reputation. My prices are on my website and so you take your choice and pay the price.
At the end of the day it is a business transaction. Those turners that give a poor demo or don't give value for money won't, or perhaps shouldn't get booked again. Those that work hard and do a good job should never be out of work!
Just my thoughts
Richard
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Its a fine line how much you charge for a demo and how much you charge for traveling costs.
I know both sides as a demonstrator and as chairman for my local club.
I have to charge a rate to cover the time which as a rough guide is 11 hrs preparing, traveling and demo time. Then a charge for traveling which more then covers fuel costs, but I have to think about the extra cost per year like servicing, but I have to insure my car for business class 1 use. The normal cover will only allow me to travel to my work, but not for using to travel to demo, this cost me extra.
As a member of the committee I understand the cost that we face when we book a demonstrator and the need to balancing the books at the year end. Yes we have to say no we can't afford some demonstrators due to the costs, but we don't expect a demonstrator to come and not cover there costs when woodturning is they main income.
A feedback form is available to send feedback to the RPT on the demo, this is on the RPT website.
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this year one of the Demonstrators gave us an assessment form to complete and return to the Register of Professional Turners this was a First for me in 10 years how many do this?
Regards John
We also find it is rare for an RPT member to provide a feedback form ! Perhaps the RPT need to encourage their members to promote the forms -surely it is not up to us to download the forms.
as a professional person doing a full day demo what do you feel is a 'reasonably' price including everything for a days demo including preparation and post work, £240- £300 -£400 ? what do you believe is value for money ?
Not easy to say what is an average fair rate. The fee for a full day demo should also factor in the popularity/skills/entertainment/education/rarity value of the demonstrator and this will be reflected in the cost. The club can then price up the event accordingly to ensure that there is sufficient take-up on tickets and the overall costs for the event are covered.
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I agree with the comments made by Richard F. one other point I would like to make some Demonstrators if they have not finished a piece will give this to a member to finish off which is most generous.
There are others who make several items at the Demo then take them away to sell so surely that pays for the cost of the wood used.I would say 95% of the time we are more than happy with the Demonstrators we book and the point Richard made if they do not give value for money they do not get booked again.
Regards John
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We also find it is rare for an RPT member to provide a feedback form ! Perhaps the RPT need to encourage their members to promote the forms -surely it is not up to us to download the forms.
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All RPT are encouraged to hand out feedback forms, I hand one out at all my demos, with an stamped address envelope.
The best feedback is being asked back to clubs you have been to many times. One club booked me for 2 dates next year as I walked in, that must say lot.
One club give a feedback questionnaire to all members on the night, this asks them was the demonstrator value for money, would you like to see them again, did you learn anything, and a few more.
Good demonstrators will always be in work. Yes I know there is a limit before you out price yourself, but I like others need to cover the costs for the hours that go into a demo, but still knowing clubs can afford to pay for a demo by us.
I know we have lost members at my club which means we have to look at the demo costs when we have less income from subs. I know its hard for both side, that's why as a demonstrator I have to give value for money every time I go out. I know clubs will if not already reach a point when demos will become a less of a clubs feature at they meetings.
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Very interesting discussion and I'm glad Mark S brought it up as the article also caught my attention. And I blame him for my long reply :)
I'd just like clarify the 45p per mile rate. This is the rate set by the HMRC to calculate the amount of tax relief a business can claim for business mileage. So if a business does 5000 miles it can claim £2250 as a business expense against turnover and so reduce their tax liability. It does not relate to fuel prices only but is intended to cover all the costs of running a business vehicle eg fuel, depreciation etc. A business can charge what they like to the customer though it's usually affected by market forces.
Another point is that both clubs and demonstrators (those that earn their living from woodturning) are businesses and as such have to be aware of their income and expenditure. Expenditure include both fixed and indirect costs (those not directly attributed to a particular job eg insurance, office overheads, accountant’s fee etc). As Mark has already said it's no good doing demos if there is no profit/benefit in it for the turner. (I've put "profit/benefit" because there may be reasons to do work at a loss for the reward of future profits.) With the clubs they are usually looking at balancing their books with maybe a small surplus for upgrading equipment etc.
I’ll stick my neck out here but as I see it the problem arises where the Turner is trying to make a living and the Clubs are trying not to increase fees to their members. I find the implied notion in the article that for a club of 50 members the suggested annual fee of £32.50 to have 6 demos a year on top of their membership fee would make the total cost of membership prohibitive unbelievable. I realise that most club members are on limited incomes but that is an increase of £2.71 per month or 63 pence per week. There has been mention of losing members but my experience of the clubs I visit has been of them not taking on more members because the club is full and members belonging to more than one club. Maybe they are just better run clubs?
Clubs can get round this by charging a door fee for specific demos. Another way of bringing in new demonstrators from further afield is for clubs in an area to work together and share the costs. I know this has worked in a number of areas of the country notably the South West and Borders Region with both the Turner and Club benefit. But it does depend on Turner and Club working together.
As to a “reasonably” price for a day demo it’s an impossible question to answer because all businesses have different expenses and consequently overhead recovery rates leading to different fees. Market forces appear to play a more important role in demo pricing.
With regard to “value for money”, it can’t really be assessed by club members if they don’t know the fee being charged? This came up when the RPT feedback form was looked at a while back. All that really can be said is it was good, informative, entertaining demo and I learnt something from it or the opposite.
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as a professional person doing a full day demo what do you feel is a 'reasonably' price including everything for a days demo including preparation and post work, £240- £300 -£400 ? what do you believe is value for money ?
Not easy to say what is an average fair rate. The fee for a full day demo should also factor in the popularity/skills/entertainment/education/rarity value of the demonstrator and this will be reflected in the cost. The club can then price up the event accordingly to ensure that there is sufficient take-up on tickets and the overall costs for the event are covered.
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It is very easy Dave, a person making a proper living from their trade, I am not talking about a turner that has a pension behind them and doesn't really need to earn a living from turning but a proper trade. The average for a day wage in Dorset for a skilled trade is £150-£185 per 8 hour day so this should be the minimum fee before materials, travelling expenses/vehicle running costs etc etc etc, extra on this will be added travelling time, fuel costs, this is how the trades people I know price there work.
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As an example if they are on the road at 7 to go to London with a 2 hr travelling time each way then this is added to their day rate, on top of this is the vehicle running costs, the customer has the choice in that if they want that particular trades person they pay the price or get someone local.
So if demonstrators are running a business properly they should not buy the work by not charging for travelling time but should charge it out at the same rate as their hourly production time as this is what they lose, add the fuel costs plus materials, sundries etc. If this is done then I would charge for fuel and drop the 45p/mile as this will be tax deductible.
So if I was charging out a demo for a club that was say a 6 hour round trip my added costs would be £30 x 6 + £45 fuel lets be generous and charge the hourly rate at £20/hour £120 on top of the day rate of £185 = £305 + £45 fuel
£350
If we look at it more and start adding time lost from production to get ready for a all day demo again being generous say 4 hours especially if I need to rough turn hollow forms etc to sharpen tools, pack every thing, then we add another £80
£430
When we get back getting the workshop straight, more lost production time 2 hours another £40 and this is being generous as I can turn £40/hour net for my time by staying in the work shop.
so
£430 + £40 = £ 470
£470 for a day turning demonstration, not on your bxxxxy Nelly I hear you shout :) but its not a days turning it is 1 3/4 days work call it 2 cause you are not going to do much with the rest as you will ne knackered from all the driving.
So in reality what I charge is my day rate and 45p/mile which is not a back hander/extra wage but covers the fuel, running cost, depreciation of the works vehicle
£470 divided by 2 (if we charge for prep time and travelling which we don't) so lets take off the £120 and the fuel charge of £45
= £305
add the 45/p/mile many begrudge paying so £240 mile x .45 = £108 but exclude this from our wage as it is genuine running costs not some hidden back hand.
£305 / 16 hrs work including the(prep of pieces and lost production time) £19.06/hour - 20% tax £3.80 £15.24/hour before all other over heads depreciation etc In reality for a full days demo with a lot of driving time thisis is 2 full days work.
£15.24 x 8 hours = divided by 2 = £121.92/day before over heads, sundries, depreciation of tools, office costings, etc etc etc, so being generous - another £10/day for over heads £111.92/day not on your nelly :) :) :) :) .
So if we rework the blanks and get them to a gallery standard they will on top of the time already processing and roughing (if we do this) this more than pays for the blanks ok i'll give you that, but what pays for the lost time, I know, I will give it for free out of my earnings as I am a charitable chap like that !! I make on the sale of the piece as I didn't charge for my travelling time/lost production time etc.
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So now lets look at it from my skilled trades person/wages point of view.
By staying in my workshop for a day 1000-1600 this is my day as I also look after my daughters, that is 4 hours less over the two days for a demo
I can on production bowl and other turning in this time (much less than for a demo) net double the fee from the demonstration with no travelling, no lost production, no lost hourly rate, no excessive tiredness which lowers my production rate for a few days, no wear and tear on my vehicle etc etc etc.
It was very well put in the Revolutions article/paraphrasing if you don't want the work then don't do it hence the reason I only do a few evening demos with very local clubs and the odd one now and again further a field/abroad if is a positive process on my business IE networking. Since I have decided to stop most of the demo's my percentage of profit has vastly risen to the extent that I now realise I am giving money away to demo compared with production turning.
So I hear what clubs are saying and I can see how having to put the yearly fees up to £36 can hurt s it is such a huge amount for one years fee's of a club, trust me giving away my money just for 1 x demo instead of staying in the workshop hurts me also :)try giving away £2000 a year so you can buy the demo work. For this reason I have pretty much stopped demos and I would urge other demonstrators to look at the genuine business/hourly rate costs involved in an all day and evening demo charge it and if clubs won;t pay then don't demo. Simples.
Now it does not mean I do not enjoy demonstrating or the people at them to the contrary I have made many friends and enjoy the laugh and banter very much, but having a young family and not getting my Police pension until I am 60 I have to pay for the bills, it is just not a viable option for me to greatly lower my hourly rate and percentage of profit to attend demo's, this for me if just buying work, businesses don't buy work they make a profit for time spent time.
Of course some demonstrators charge much more than me as they are more experienced etc, some charge less so it will vary.,
That is it from me on the subject :) :) I have done the maths with my accountant so will stay in the workshop more often than not. :) :)
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ALL OF THESE CALCULATIONS ARE TO MUCH FOR ME :D :D enough said ::) Regards John
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One way to avoid all of these costs is for AWGB members to take up the free of charge demonstrator's course and get their club to pay for their expenses. That way you can have free demonstrations done by your friends.
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:) :) :) I think they are too much for many John hence the article in Revolutions :) :)
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One way to avoid all of these costs is for AWGB members to take up the free of charge demonstrator's course and get their club to pay for their expenses. That way you can have free demonstrations done by your friends.
Yes I think that is certainly a good way for clubs to save the money and swap ideas, design and techniques.
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Woodturning clubs are insignificant compared with many other activities and are mostly dependent on demonstrators to fulfil their programmes. We'd be lost without them, so they need to be suitably reimbursed for what they do. By the nature of things they will charge what the market will stand. It doesn't really matter to us what costs they incur or how they manage their taxes.
Dave Atkinson's original article highlighted some aspects of cost which may not have been apparent to some people. By contrast the present article by Peter Martin uses some strange comparisons and is thoroughly unhelpful.
The cost of travel in terms of time is significant let alone the 45p per mile. It would therefore seem sensible to charge only the marginal cost and absorb the fixed expense.
BTW As there is so much debate on the Forum I thought it might have got a mention at the AGM.
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Last year I had a gardener do two days work for me wheeling a barrow to a skip because I had torn ligaments in my knee he charged me £160 00 a day.
Therefore I think if a Woodturner is charging you £180 00 for a full day demo plus travel you are getting a bargain.
Travel costs are not just for fuel they are to cover a share of overall annual expenses of a vehicle and his labour when he is driving to and return from a demo.
I do not do Demo's anymore as I don't think they are worth the work and worry it is easier money to teach in your own workshop.
If I teach two students in my workshop I charge £180 00 a day for the two of them that is easier and more rewarding than doing a 200 mile round trip to earn the same money and all I have to supply is a couple of bits of wood a light lunch and a bit of electric.
You work out which is best and then be thankful you can get demonstrators.
most clubs I have spoken to are finding it increasingly difficult to get demonstrators for evening demo's.
Regards George
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So no demonstrators no clubs no AWGB ???
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Woodturning clubs are insignificant compared with many other activities and are mostly dependent on demonstrators to fulfil their programmes. We'd be lost without them, so they need to be suitably reimbursed for what they do. By the nature of things they will charge what the market will stand. It doesn't really matter to us what costs they incur or how they manage their taxes.
The cost of travel in terms of time is significant let alone the 45p per mile. It would therefore seem sensible to charge only the marginal cost and absorb the fixed expense.
I agree people will charge what the market stands, until they find another market which will pay the correct wage for their time, and charging the marginal fee with me absorbing the fixed expense, must admit I kinda like the old fashioned way of working in that I work and people pay me for it, if they don't want to then don't ask me to do the work. :) :)
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A club lives by the spirit of its members, not by the fees they charge. Obviously a small club will not have the financial power to afford big lathes or expensive demonstrators, but they can still organize interesting meetings by using a little brain power.
I can understand why George doesn't want to do demonstrations, it's a personal decision, and every wood turner has to make that decision for themselves. Whilst there will always be turners who don't want to do demos (for whatever reason), there will probably also always be others who do. A free market situation will create a natural balance between supply and demand.
At West Midlands Woodturners we had David Lowe on Sunday, and I had a brief chat with him. He thinks the clubs should just get a little better organized, so that when he travels down from Scarborough to the West Midlands, he can cover 3 or 4 clubs in one long weekend, and then his travel expenses can be shared between these clubs. In that way it can make business sense for both sides, and even smaller clubs can get decent demonstrations.
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I'd agree with David Lowe's comments re clubs getting organised. We have 3 clubs within our area and we all seem to use the same demonstrators but at different times. We have one demonstrator coming down this week and he'll be back at the end of October at one of the other clubs.
We did try to set up a system whereby we tried to co-ordinate our programs but this did not work - you need to have the will amongst all the clubs involved to do this.
So no demonstrators no clubs no AWGB ???
Clubs can survive without solely using pro demonstrators - in our case, more of our members are getting confident enough to organise a half or full evening slot.
There's one other thought not yet mentioned: for an all day event, it might even be more economical to fly in a demonstrator from abroad. Our experience has been that we get a detailed shopping list and when the turner comes along, he/she checks the set-up sharpens their tools and then starts into the demo. Worked well for us but you do have to get the right turner to make it a financial success. You get the added bonus of being able to offer places to other clubs and to charge a fee to help cover costs.
We don't really take advantage of the number of overseas turners visiting/passing through the UK as much as we should. It's hard work getting everything organised but well worth the end result.
We know that Skype/VOIP apps work well but not a lot of demonstrators are set up with a studio to provide this kind of demo. Saves on costs and time - the perfect solution! You may have seen the results of some of the Skype/VOIP tests done elsewhere and they do provide a good demo experience. The big problem is of course to ensure that your venue has a good internet connection that you can use.-not easy.
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I write as a club secretary responsible for the club programme. We do have some expensive guests, and we balance this with local demonstrators who will charge a bit less. I do see from time to time that the AWGB trains new demonstrators, and it strikes me that we could help each other by offering a booking to some of these, clearly they need to have bookings, otherwise why train? We are always looking for some one to do some thing a bit different. So why not help each other and give the newly trained demonstrators a chance? Why not? because I do not know who has undertaken these courses and I cannot contact them.
So Please can we have a list of these people and if not can they be given club secretaries details so we can offer them some thing we both need.
Ron Davis
Bury St Edmunds Woodturning Club
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Any AWGB member who wishes to be listed as offering demonstrations is already listed on the website. We can't publish members details without their permission so that's the only list we can give you.
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Ron,
There are a lot of good club demonstrators who have not gone on the AWGB course but might be available for other club demos.
Only way I can think of at the moment, is a round robin to clubs to ask if anyone interested in doing a demo or knows of any good demonstrators ??
If your email reaches my club, I;ll certainly add a couple of names to the list for you - none of which have done the AWGB course.
David
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The list on the website isn't related to who has done the course, just AWGB members who have requested to be added.
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When a club member demonstrates at his/her own club they are insured under member to member. It would be helpful if the insurers were to extend this to inter club members. Perhaps AWGB could use it's clout to get it included.
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Thanks David, I think that some sort of network between clubs would be great. I post our programmes on our website and I do get occasional inquiries about the demonstrators we have had. I just thought that as someone had gone to the trouble to undertake demonstrator training, they would want to demonstrate. The demonstrators and the club secretaries should have a better way of contacting each other, perhaps they could be asked if they would like to have their names on the AWGB site, or passed on to club secretaries in their area.
Ron
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Hi I think these Questions have been answered many times on previous postings I am sure some one will put a link to this thread and remember the AWGB are by law not allowed to advise you on Insurance matters.
Regards John
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When a club member demonstrates at his/her own club they are insured under member to member. It would be helpful if the insurers were to extend this to inter club members. Perhaps AWGB could use it's clout to get it included.
Tony,
Your statement is not necessarily true and in many cases it is not true. The cover would depend on many things so it would be unwise to generalise. The best approach is to check with your insurer to clarify what they do and don't cover.
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Also important to check the small print of your insurance. Recently mine changed to say that every event I attend has to have an accompanying 'Risk Assessment' or I won't be covered. Been to several shows where it has been apparent the demonstrators have not carried one out and would probably not be covered as the techniques they are using obviously put the viewing public at risk and a small change would have removed the risk all together.
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Perhaps I ought to start running risk assessment courses ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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My insurance policy covers me for doing demos, shows, teaching etc as well as the day to day work in my own workshop. Also is cheaper than the average off the street insurance company.
Pete
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Paul
I'm always prepared to be wrong. But please be more specific.
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Tony,
Your statement generalised based on your knowledge of your policy and certain assumptions about the arrangement made between the demonstrator and your club. Anyone else reading that wouldn't know what assumptions you had made, which insurance company you used or what their policy covered but if they took it on face value, they could think they were covered when they were not.
I'm not going to go into specific detail for reasons previously mentioned.
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Sorry Paul I couldn't disagree more.
My statement was not a generalisation. It was absolutely specific.
When you reassured us that the Tennyson policy covered everything in the Craftman policy it was implicit that member to member was covered.
Now I'll admit the craftsman policy wording was not specific but the broker had confirmed it in writing to me.
Thoroughly unsatisfactory of course. However in the current wording it is spelt out in words of one syllable.
For the sake of clarity this relates to a club member demonstrating in own club. Guest turners are not covered and need to have their own PL cover.
Please do not confuse advice with statements of fact, and of issues which are open to discussion.
As I've said before you can only rely on the wording of the policy, therefore I regard it as paramount that the words used are clear unambiguous and not open to interpretation. Unfortunately there is still a long way to go in this field.
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Tony,
Your statement made no reference to any insurer and as I said, the arrangement with the demonstrator will influence whether they are covered on the club policy.
As I also said earlier, you can't generalise. Check with the insurer.
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Paul
As this is the AWGB forum and I said clubs I assumed it was obvious.
Having clarified that, do you think it would be helpful if the insurer linked the member to member cover to cater for someone demonstrating at another club. Specifically those using the same policy.
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Tony,
I don't know which club you are in or which insurers they use so I can't answer that one. Perhaps you should talk to your insurer.
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Which insurers we use is irrelevant to the question. It would only apply to clubs using the same insurers as one another.
The point was intended to help increase the availability of demonstrators between local clubs.
Well does anyone think it's a good idea? Not that I expect it to happen.
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Yes of course it is a good idea.... but.... If one of your members was demo'ing at another club he would probably want paying for it ( all be it a reduced amount ) and that would probably void the insurance.
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Yes of course it is a good idea.... but.... If one of your members was demo'ing at another club he would probably want paying for it ( all be it a reduced amount ) and that would probably void the insurance.
In which case he should be registered as self empoyed and have his own insurance.
Pete
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Yes of course it is a good idea.... but.... If one of your members was demo'ing at another club he would probably want paying for it ( all be it a reduced amount ) and that would probably void the insurance.
In which case he should be registered as self empoyed and have his own insurance.
Pete
:) You think ?
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Graham
You could well be right regarding payment. To me there is no logic in it. Perhaps someone will tell us where this is covered in the Tennyson Policy, and then the insurer should be required to justify it.
Please note I'm not being devious in not disclosing where I've seen a reference to it in print.
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Yes of course it is a good idea.... but.... If one of your members was demo'ing at another club he would probably want paying for it ( all be it a reduced amount ) and that would probably void the insurance.
In which case he should be registered as self empoyed and have his own insurance.
Pete
:) You think ?
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Tony.
For goodness sake ask your bloody Insurance Company they are the experts you cannot expect laymen to give you the answers you are seeking Insurance questions can not be answered by the AWGB "It is against The Law" or are you just playing Devils Advocate ??? ??? ???
Regards John
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In which case he should be registered as self empoyed and have his own insurance.
Pete
[/quote]
Exactly right Pete also my experience of most club members they would not be capable of doing a decent Demo.
As for the AWGB Demonstrator course everybody I have spoken to say it is a waste of time as apparently you don't even have to be a competent turner to do it.
Regards George
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Tony.
For goodness sake ask your bloody Insurance Company they are the experts you cannot expect laymen to give you the answers you are seeking Insurance questions can not be answered by the AWGB "It is against The Law" or are you just playing Devils Advocate ??? ??? ???
Regards John
hear, hear
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Hi Mark S thank you for your support firstly I apologise for using the 'B' word can you imagine the first person who sues a woodturning club for an injury that will be the end of woodturning clubs because you will never get another Committee and lets face it that is hard enough now.
One of the things that has ruined a lot of crafts is when the schools got so scared of being sued they sold off all of their equipment so now the pupils when the leave to go out into the big bad world are not prepared for the safe working practices I always thought schools were preparing students for the real world.
Regards John
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Exactly right Pete also my experience of most club members they would not be capable of doing a decent Demo.
As for the AWGB Demonstrator course everybody I have spoken to say it is a waste of time as apparently you don't even have to be a competent turner to do it.
Regards George
George the course is not intended to produce competent turners the course is intended to give club members the confidence to carry out a demonstration at club level. It is not intended to train members to become free lance demonstrators and as one who has conducted one or two courses I can tell you that unless a dangerous practice is observed those that run the courses are not there to comment on the turning prowess of those undertaking the training as that would then be counter productive. I wonder how many of the people that you spoke to and had attended the course were lacking in confidence? If they were already confident then they may well have got less benefit from it than those that were less assured of themselves.
I also think that it should be remembered that all of these courses are run by volunteers who give their time free of charge so that at least some woodturners can take advantage of what the Association offers and hopefully improve their skill base.
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Hi Mark S thank you for your support firstly I apologise for using the 'B' word can you imagine the first person who sues a woodturning club for an injury that will be the end of woodturning clubs because you will never get another Committee and lets face it that is hard enough now.
One of the things that has ruined a lot of crafts is when the schools got so scared of being sued they sold off all of their equipment so now the pupils when the leave to go out into the big bad world are not prepared for the safe working practices I always thought schools were preparing students for the real world.
Regards John
Your welcome and you are a gent for apologising for the 'B' word but I understand where you are coming from and personally no apology needed. One of the past times I have always said I will never get involved in is a committee, obviously I know many that are and the grief and hassle they go through giving their time for free often goes without thanks and comes with loads of hassle. Look at the committee of the AWGB who do a great job and get hassle all of the time, it always amuses me though that the people that give the hassle and criticism are never the ones stood in front of the line when the position is up for renewal to give there free time and experience to the cause.
Not that any one in this thread has given any criticism I am just generalising from past experience, if people don't like something then sod off and go find something you do like being involved in. :)
Again I you have it right as we are not experts in the field of insurance and we all know the AWGB can not give advise on the subject, this has been clarified many times so if people want to know specifics go ask an expert.
My daughters school has 2 CNC lathes and one hand woodturning lathe, when I asked where it was I was told that it was in the technicians room and the students are not allowed to use it due to H&S. I want to add that I do not think in any way it was the H&S executive that imposed this but the school policy. Every one is now so risk averse that so many crafts/activities as you say have been ruined. Also they were not allowed to run on the hard surface area at break time in case they fell over, well if they did fall over a few times perhaps they would learn a lot quicker. :)
One thing that pifs me off about all this H&S talk is that if people didn't act like morons and took responsibility for their own actions instead of wanting to sue everyone their wouldn't behalf the problems, it seems it is always someone else's fault, hence we need the H&S executive to bed feed everyone and to look after us as we can't do it on our own.
There is as you appreciate and all of us do a very valid reason for H&S and none of use would ever want to do something that would in any way put anyone in danger but as we know everything has a risk attached to it and it is up to all of us to make sure that risk is reduced as much as we can, whining and passing the buck is not the way to go about it, taking responsibility is.
off to the workshop now :) :) :)
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Totally 100 per cent right, Mark. Malcolm.
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No John (SMITH) a Devil's Advocate takes on a position which he does not necessarily agree with to further a debate. I do my best to draw attention to areas where facts have become blurred. In respect of legalese in documents, having no legal qualifications, I suppose I'm a layman. However I claim to be a reasonably knowledgeable one by virtue of over 40 years experience in dealing with terms and conditions of sale and contract across a wide range of companies. Hence my special interest.
Compared with the words used this week at Wimbledon "bloody" is extremely mild and no need of apology.
If debate about insurance is not to disappear like woodwork in schools we need to overcome "cant say because it's illegal". To that extent I maintain that asking if a policy does or does not use specific words does not constitute asking for advice. In that context you have to bear in mind that AWGB negotiated the terms of the Tennyson policy. As our club does not use that policy I've only skipped through the text.
BTW For money changing hands see Revolutions MARCH 2015.
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Exactly right Pete also my experience of most club members they would not be capable of doing a decent Demo.
As for the AWGB Demonstrator course everybody I have spoken to say it is a waste of time as apparently you don't even have to be a competent turner to do it.
Regards George
George,
I think you are doing club members a dis-service. After all, aren't you a club member too? and aren't many of the professional demonstrators also club members>
There are some very capable club members with a lot to offer.
I have also seen a few poor demonstrations (including some by people claiming to be "professionals") but none of them could be attributed to the demonstrator being a member of a club.
The demonstrator course is exactly what it says it is - a grounding in presentation techniques. Have you done the course yourself? If you have any suggestions on how the course can be improved, I'm sure our development team would be glad to hear your comments.
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[quote author=Paul Hannaby
Exactly right Pete also my experience of most club members they would not be capable of doing a decent Demo.
As for the AWGB Demonstrator course everybody I have spoken to say it is a waste of time as apparently you don't even have to be a competent turner to do it.
[/quote]
George,
I think you are doing club members a dis-service. After all, aren't you a club member too? and aren't many of the professional demonstrators also club members>
There are some very capable club members with a lot to offer.
I have also seen a few poor demonstrations (including some by people claiming to be "professionals") but none of them could be attributed to the demonstrator being a member of a club.
The demonstrator course is exactly what it says it is - a grounding in presentation techniques. Have you done the course yourself? If you have any suggestions on how the course can be improved, I'm sure our development team would be glad to hear your comments.
[/quote]
t seems to me Paul that you are trying to imply that I said all club members in my opinion were incapable of doing a decent Demo when if you like to read it again you will see I said most club members.(try and keep up. ::)
My experience is that the majority of club members are very much novices and in my opinion unless somebody is a proficient and safe turner they should not be doing Demo's.
I did once consider doing the demonstrator course but when I discussed it with one of your trainers I was told it was not necessary for the member taking the course to be a competent turner or any sort of turner ( correct me if I am wrong)
How can you qualify as a woodturning demonstrator if you cannot turn.
Why would club members want to watch a demo by somebody who was not a decent turner but had attended one of your courses it is hard enough now to keep members interested without them having to put up with a poor demo.
We have had experience in our club of a demo from somebody who had attended one of your courses. He was completely out of his depth mumbled to himself was ill prepared and made a real Sow's ear of it so obviously your course never taught him anything about preparation or how to communicate with his audience.
Regards George
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Oh dear, I wish I hadn't started this one!
it still seems odd to me that someone does undertake the course and is then too shy to want to take advantage of it.
As for club members who demonstrate, well I can't even get them to enter a club competition!
Still looking to fill the last two slots for next years programme.
Ron
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George,
I wasn't inferring anything, just stating what I said and I still disagree with you.
I think you are the one missing the point, as I said before, the ability to do a demo or not isn't related to club membership.
No course would claim to make anyone an expert overnight. As I'm sure you will agree, some people develop skills faster than others and some people find demonstrating hard going. It may be down to bad preparation but it could also be nerves, stage fright or whatever you want to call it. Most people find with experience it becomes easier but there are those who decide it's not for them. Each to their own I say and in my opinion, we can only praise them for having the spirit to get up and have a go.
Without clubs who are prepared to show some tolerance and work with demonstrators along their journey to proficiency, how can you expect them to improve and where do you think the next generation of demonstrators will come from!
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George,
I wasn't inferring anything, just stating what I said and I still disagree with you.
I think you are the one missing the point, as I said before, the ability to do a demo or not isn't related to club membership.
I never said the ability to do a demo had anything to do with club membership but as most of us belong to clubs and all the Demo's I have done have been in clubs I can only speak from experience.
As for you agreeing with anything I say I think there is more likelihood of me sleeping with Britany Spears
Regards George
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I have heard on the grapevine that Britney Spears is going to Burnham on sea this year :D :D :D :D
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That would be good john we have Paul Hannaby in our Club in November ::)
Regards George
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Don't believe everything the grapevine tells you.
Oh dear, I wish I hadn't started this one!
Why do you wish that? It would appear to me that this is a subject close to the heart of many people who are here, and we are having a lively exchange of views and ideas, which is precisely what a forum is all about.
From my own observation I would have to agree with George that many ordinary club members would struggle putting together a demonstration, never mind one that people would want to see or pay money for. However, this has to be seen against the background of what a club is. Your members range from professional right through to the person who wants to escape SWMBO for a day. They come from all walks of life, and not many of them will have ever had the opportunity to speak in public, let alone doing it while holding a razor sharp tool against a piece of wood rotating at 1000rpm. Presentation skills are something that has to be learned, just like any other skill, including wood turning, and many club members simply do not spend enough time turning to become truly proficient at it. To them, it's a hobby and that's all. They do not even have the desire to demonstrate.
I also agree with George, that a demo by somebody who is not proficient and at ease with the task, is probably either boring or dangerous (and possibly both).
So all in all, the course is probably meant for people who want to demonstrate, but are unsure about some aspects of it. It's not about turning skills, it's about presentation/safety/etc. In any case, those folks who do bad demos probably get told very quickly, and then have a chance to up their skills or leave it.
I think all that's happened here is that George has been very honest and direct, which is why we all love him so much, right?
OTOH, Paul does have a point, too. Clubs must be prepared to work with their members. And since clubs are made up of members, that means the better members have to put in some time and effort to teach the less proficient ones.
And since you (George) have quite some experience, maybe it would be a good idea to work with the AWGB to make the course better?
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Thank you Fuzzy that about sums it up.
I do not do Demo's other than in our own Club at Burnham on Sea any more .
I have seen dozens of Dem's mostly by good Pro turners and have learned something from all of them .
We do not have hands on evenings in our club anymore because it always turns into a Demo evening which is usually boring because most members will not get up and have a go they would rather be entertained for the evening by good demonstrators..
We are very lucky that in our small club we have five members that are capable of doing a professional Demo this enables us to have two top turners for all day demo's a year and several for evening Dem's.
Because we do not have hands on evenings we have four full day hands on days in my workshop every year.
Regards George
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Learning is an ongoing process and attending one course or even many will not automatically instill all of the tools/skills a person needs to do a fantastic job from the start. In my last job pounding the beat I went on more courses than I can remember. We had a 2 year probation period in which time we had 14 weeks full time at training school, with practical and masses of theory, we then went out on division with a tutor for another 4 weeks then back to training school for 4 more weeks of intensive training, then back out to division to finish off the remaining two years.
After all of that training I knew it all :) and can still remember my fist day out, given the car keys and my first job, well it went pants up and I was like a startled rabbit and can remember thinking that even with all that training I still messed up big time. My pride was well dented.
Eventually after many many lessons/jobs attended followed by self critique of every job/scenario, (part of the ongoing training program was self analysis/critique, as well as debriefing by the whole squad) I became proficient and good at my job, still made mistakes, still found it hard but the difference was I then had the tools to know how to put it right when it went horribly wrong.
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From my experience demonstrating woodturning is no different.
I attended the first Demonstrator Training Day organised by the AWGB as I wanted to start demonstrating and knew that presentation skills is a big part of getting across any subject. For me it was very useful and well put together. I learnt masses about teaching/presentation skills and methods, I learnt that one person may absorb information in a totally different way to the person sat next to them, some learn through theory, some better by seeing.
The one thing that I did come away with from the course was a good foundation of skills of how to plan and put across a demonstration, especially in the time given to the course. Not long after getting ready for my first demo, planned etc as taught, the demo was well received, I still felt like a startled rabbit but got away with it as nothing went wrong :) :) I had cracked it. :) :)
The next demo, was absolutely pants, I was sweating like the proverbial, a piece flew off of the lathe, it was awful, I was so disappointed I only asked for my fuel fee, but the club were very kind and supportive, even a very well known seasoned international demonstrator was present watching me and came up during the break and told me not to worry as all including himself have times when things go wrong, he told me of other well know demo's he had been to at big stages where things for others had gone wrong and he said something that has stayed with me ever since ' it is not about the mistakes you make but how you recover from them'.
We all have bad days and attending a single course is not going to make you a wizard demonstrator, indeed I have given over 100 demo's over my short time demonstrating and things still go wrong, now it makes me laugh when it does and we all generally have a good laugh about it.
Knowing your subject such as how to turn is important, but also is knowing your limits and I know quite a few demonstrators who are not as efficient with the tools as our well know production turners, indeed I am a bowl hollow form turner, you won't see me doing many spindle turning demo's as it is not my bag, Richard Findley, Les Thorn, Gary Rance to name a few are the masters of that field, so I demonstrate the subjects I know and this I believe is important.
This is an important point for those wanting to demonstrate, pick a subject that you enjoy and know, don't over complicate it, practice, practice, practice and when you think you know it practice some more. I would close my workshop door and talk as I turned and even answered imaginary questions etc, I am sure if anyone heard me they would have called for those in white coats.
Demonstrate as yourself, don't try to be like anyone else, be yourself relax and enjoy it as every one can pass on useful information to others.
Another point which is very important and has been the key stone to my development is the 'support' of every one, both other turners/demonstrators but also the support of the people watching has helped me and continues to do so in my development.
You will always get people at demo's who want to trip you up, ask difficult questions, ect, just be honest and don't BS as I don't think there is a demo I have gone to where I have not learnt something from someone in the crowd.
I could go on and on :) :) :) yes we know I hear you say :) :) :)
The demonstrators course was very useful to me, well put together and I learnt a lot from it,that said I am still learning, making mistakes and getting around them. I have watch demonstrations/presentations that were very good where the demonstrator did not pick up a turning tool. !!
It is very helpful for members of clubs to get together at their workshops and demonstrate, talk about it and how to do it better, may be just start off with 3 or 4 members getting together.
Organisation and preparation is the key and we have probably all heard of the five 'Ps', but not matter how much you plan at times things still go wrong.
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I have heard on the grapevine that Britney Spears is going to Burnham on sea this year :D :D :D :D
I have heard she has cancelled as she got 'Twerking' and turning mixed up.
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Hi Mark
Where did you learn don't use one word when a hundred would do Writing up statements I expect. ::)
Regards George
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Hi Mark
Where did you learn don't use one word when a hundred would do Writing up statements I expect. ::)
Regards George
well I do it deliberately as I know you struggle with long sentences. :-*
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We all know a policeman's lot is not a happy one. Seems to be contagious.
Cheer up George you could always go on a speed reading course.
It's dead easy. Read the first line of the first few paragraphs. Then read the final paragraph.
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I have been on two speed awareness courses Tony that was fun.
For the first time in my life I have a clean driving licence now and am trying to keep it that way.
Regards George
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Great post Mark.
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Hi everyone It seems to me this thread has gone way off course ??? ??? Regards John
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Hi everyone It seems to me this thread has gone way off course ??? ??? Regards John
Yes it has John but don't you just love it when that happens? Perhaps we need a category with no title just so's we can have our rants and put the world to rights. ;D ;D ;D ;D
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It has gone off course but is still good natured so not a problem as I see it.
Stop moaning John LOL
Regards George
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Hi everyone It seems to me this thread has gone way off course ??? ??? Regards John
Hi John
My long reply with a bit of life history was not only to hopefully get across that it takes time for people to become good at demonstrating (as with all trades all of us here will have been involved with) but also to show that this experience gain his hard won and is also a reason demonstrators should charge the correct fee. Thousands of hours of practice and experimenting to be able to come up with the designs and techniques to produce their work and to expect this at a discount just because people don't want to put the membership fee up by a couple of pounds to £36 as mentioned in rev's is rather an insult.
Yes it has been mentioned that clubs can do without Pro turners, may be so, but at what price,!! there are many good club turners out there that can indeed turn well, but giving a good demonstration is a skill all on its own !! and the two for me do not necessarily automatically correlate, this being the message of my previous reply.
However clubs should also get value for money and just as demonstrating skills do not necessarily link in with turning skills, from my experience nor does being a Pro turner necessarily link in to a high quality of work or demonstration.
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Hi GBH & BHT,
Ok I give in ::) ::) ::) Regards John
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Hi GBH & BHT,
Ok I give in ::) ::) ::) Regards John
LOL
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Hi GBH & BHT,
Ok I give in ::) ::) ::) Regards John
LOL
;D ;D ;D
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No wonder the Head of H & S herself made this comment:
"We are an organisation which enables business activities, including many highly hazardous ones, to take place with proper, sensible and proportionate risk management measures in place. We do not ban conkers, prohibit the sale of cakes at charity fetes, stop school trips or any one of numerous other myths which abound on "elf n' safety".
(Dame Judith Hackett CBE - Chair of Health & Safety Executive)
That remark got a thunderous round of applause from the audience.
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No wonder the Head of H & S herself made this comment:
"We are an organisation which enables business activities, including many highly hazardous ones, to take place with proper, sensible and proportionate risk management measures in place. We do not ban conkers, prohibit the sale of cakes at charity fetes, stop school trips or any one of numerous other myths which abound on "elf n' safety".
(Dame Judith Hackett CBE - Chair of Health & Safety Executive)
That remark got a thunderous round of applause from the audience.
Which is what it should have got (thunderous applause). All too often people are using H&S as an excuse not to do something or in my experience to complicate things.
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No wonder the Head of H & S herself made this comment:
"We are an organisation which enables business activities, including many highly hazardous ones, to take place with proper, sensible and proportionate risk management measures in place. We do not ban conkers, prohibit the sale of cakes at charity fetes, stop school trips or any one of numerous other myths which abound on "elf n' safety".
(Dame Judith Hackett CBE - Chair of Health & Safety Executive)
That remark got a thunderous round of applause from the audience.
Which is what it should have got (thunderous applause). All too often people are using H&S as an excuse not to do something or in my experience to complicate things.
Quit agree John, unfortunately, it is all good and well giving a good speech but action is what is needed. From speaking to several tradesman that have come to me for lessons recently it is getting worse and it appears that the memo didn't make it past the applause. Hopefully it is just stuck in the internal post.
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The quote was from the Rivers Lecture to the City great and good (and me) but if there are constantly problems as suggested, then I'm sure Ms Hackett would like to hear about them.
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The quote was from the Rivers Lecture to the City great and good (and me) but if there are constantly problems as suggested, then I'm sure Ms Hackett would like to hear about them.
she'll certainly be the first I contact.