AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: TONY MALIN on March 12, 2015, 11:01:13 AM
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Wot? No posts?
Nice to see our blue tit pretending to be a woodpecker and chipping round the entrance this morning.
Promising sign of nesting again this year.
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Or some of us are too busy LOL. Just on a coffee break and unseasonably got a diary full of commissions. Not that I am complaining.
Pete
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Maybe I should start a fight that usually gets everybody going.
Regards George
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Here's a posting for you. Club night tonight will be a hands on night. Pete here will be working with the skew chisel, another member will be showing sharpening and I think I will do some bowl turning just for a change. So at least 3 lathes on the go at the club tonight if not more.
Now lunch break over, back to work.
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I'm sure you'll bowl em over John.
Please let us know how many were there and how many actually took part.
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Maybe I should start a fight that usually gets everybody going.
Regards George
Ah shaddup George stop being cantankerous LOL.
Pete (Just finishing lunch)
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The only time there is any life here Pete is when I start an argument .What about is woodturning Art that usually gets them going.
Or should hobby turners be selling their work cheaply and doing pros out of a living because they only do it for beer money.
Regards George
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The only time there is any life here Pete is when I start an argument .What about is woodturning Art that usually gets them going.
Or should hobby turners be selling their work cheaply and doing pros out of a living because they only do it for beer money.
Regards George
On those two subjects I am probably as bad as you so I will stay schtum. LOL.
(Yes and no )
Pete
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Will someone explain why my post has a red x and the word remove.
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because the know you are a trouble maker mine is the same.LOL
Regards George
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OK, Lets have a row.
Hammer chewers DO NOT do professionals out of any business because thay are working in different price Zones. People who but cheap things would not buy the expensive versions anyway.
Go.
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Not me I have had a yellow card. ::) ::) ::)
Regards George
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and there's me thinking I'm the peacemaker!!
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Let us do a cost analysis for making something, let us say a light pull with no bought in bits just using offcuts of wood. So question 1. Do you charge for the wood used if it is an offcut? My answer is yes. No wood is free.If I have to pick it up I need to recoup my time and petrol costs and if the wood is stored in the workshop it needs to pay for itself.
Question 2, how long does it take you to make it? My answer is I don't know for sure as I never make one at a time I make loads (usually 100 or so). But I estimate that to cut a piece to size is about 30secs.Drill the holes not including changing drill bits and depending on timber 45 secs. Mount on the lathe and turn being generous 2mins incl sanding. Stick some polish on, let's say friction polish anoth 30secs. and I like to stick some Carnauba wax on too so anoth 15 secs. So time wise we have 5 minutes to make each one complete.
Question 3 how much for abrasives and polishes? Again not sure so I am going to say 10 pence. What figure do we have now just for manufacture?
Well let's say I earn the national minimum wage of £6.50 per hour so that equates to a light pull costing 54 pence in labour add on 10 pence for consumables 64 pence and the cost of the timber. I can get oak at £47 per cu ft, I need 2 X cubic inches for each light pull which equates to 5.4 pence excl VAT. Add on time and mileage of (I'm plucking a figure out of the air here) 10 pence and electricity as an overhead so I will add on 20 pence. So the cost of manufacture of one light pull comes to....84 pence add on 20% for profit and it comes out at £1 (point 8 p but I will call it a pound)
So it costs me £1 to make a light pull not including about 1.5 pence per unit for product liability insurance ( which I am sure everyone who sells any of their stuff will have) In days past we used to estimate 50% labour + 50% materials and then multiply this figure by 4 so I would have to sell my light pulls at £4 each to make the minimum amount of money on this item. Now going back to Graham's comment, if your light pulls are cheaper than £4 each you are doing me out of business.
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Hi George,
Remember our conversation about keeping the head down you maybe laying the bait as someone said " Bless his cotton socks" ;D ;D
Regards John ::)
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Head is down john and I am staring at my feet. ;D ;D ;D ;D
Regards George
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Nuts
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Trouble maker.
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I'll stick my neck out and venture a couple of comments on your cost analysis John.
You have allowed for the minimum wage, but that needs to be doubled to give you average earnings..
You've included 20% for profit which is really an add on to the wages, and finally an inspired factor of 4.
So on balance if it were that or the workhouse you could sell more cheaply.
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George,I have to say,your right,nobody should sell their work cheaply,or people in this country will always find it hard to make a proffesional living at woodturning,we need to get people out of the dark ages and into the real world,look at America,they respect and adore woodturning/woodart,things need to be turned around here and until they are,the undercutters will always drag prices down,cheers,
Eric.
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Hi John
Don't get me started ;D. Your costings for making a light pull is an interesting exercise for non professional turners to have a go at. I remember doing a demo for a club (no name no pack drill ) and I was questioned as to why my work was so "expensive". I asked the gathered turners to price a hypothetical salad bowl of 10x3 in ash giving them an initial cost of £10 for the blank. The returned prices ranged from £12 to "about" £18. When I questioned their pricing calculations nobody at the club had figured in the making time (at even the national minimum wage ), the cost of consumables, rent on the workspace ( if you have a mortgage or pay rent work out the square foot cost of your garage/shed as a percentage of that cost) heating, electric or the price of transport to collect the material or postage from the supplier. Add in insurance and the fact I like to eat now and again and my salad bowl is certainly more "expensive".
I don't like going head to head with non pro turners over pricing but without a considered estimate of the costs they are undervaluing not just themselves but damaging the image of the Craft as a whole.
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Alan thanks for your reply, my sentiments entirely. Tony your point is taken but why should I sell more cheaply?
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Well I didn't say that did I? I suggested that if you were destitute and if they weren't selling you could lower your price without making a loss. Based on the cost analysis and with my proviso re target income of the national average earnings you could sell at around £1.50. A weakness of your cost analysis is of course assessing on the basis of one off of a small item.
I think it's a useful approach without which you would have to start with a shot in the dark, but would be improved if done on a larger scale.
For anyone starting out they need to decide what to make to meet the market.
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Trying to assess the value of something that you produce or do is always difficult. I have a problem in underestimating the value of my work and have been told off by a few people for underpricing my work despite trying to make a living and basing my costs much as John did with his summary. I recently did a demo and got told off in no uncertain terms for the charge I was, making and given double what I was asking. As that was after I had done the demo I accepted the criticism (from a well known turner) and changed my demo costs. To some extent I have to say however that the cost you charge for things you make may dictate where you are selling them. Trying to sell a £100 hollow form off a craft fair table is unlikely to get much response so perhaps it is not so much a matter of adapting the cost to suit the customer as aiming to the right customer with what you have for sale.
Pete
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At the risk of upsetting people I will put my angle on this. I look at things differently to most of you as about 95% of my work is turned to order and I don't have to make items for sale. I did one craft stall when the school my wife helps out at asked me, because they were short on stall holders at their annual fayre, never again! I hold my hand out to anyone who can make a living this way.
John’s workings are very thorough but, my I add I have to pay rent and rates for a workshop so that to must come into any equation.
One of the hardest things in business is pricing anyone can be a busy fool but it is a thin line between too busy and not busy enough.
A light pull can vary, some patterns can take twice as long as others so they must cost more. I unlike most price up on an hourly rate + consumables but as I am working all day and every day of the week turning I do not have to price up allowing time for preparing or paying for stalls.
I will not make an item if I can not ask the required price.
I make light pulls for three separate curtain/blind makers so make them as John by the hundreds. I make a tear drop style and can produce 130 in a day start to finish. I spray these on a stand made to do 25 at a time which works out quicker than individual polishing on the lathe even though they are de nibbed and buffed on the lathe. so I price this as follows:-
Timber cost - £15.00
Lacquer - £5.00
Abrasives- £3.00
workshop,electric,water, rates, ins. etc. per day £30
a pull at £1.95 ea = £253.50
I make just over £200 a day to pay myself and all other costs (they are always popping up)
Now if I had to make one pull I charge a min order of £10.00 and in this case I would use friction polish and wax.
Now it is impossible to work this way if you are spending time advertising your goods and not sure how many you will sell and have to allow hours attending craft stalls so I agree with John he has to sell at a much higher price than I do. If I sold my light pulls at a craft stall the £1.95 would become £4.
So John my pulls are half your price but I am sure I am not doing you out of business but it shows how difficult pricing is as everyone has a different scenario.
And yes those people selling cheaply on craft stalls make it very difficult for professionals to make a realistic living, and I am so glad I don't have to do it.
The biggest draw back in my business is I don't get the chance to make some of the beautiful art turnings that many of you on this forum produce.
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Making things en masse is as Steve says, cheaper than making individual pieces. I have a commission for tapestry bobbins. I can make one in between 4 & 5 minutes start to finish depending on whether anything goes wrong. The wood, because of the size, is usually offcuts and so theoretically minimal though I still add it to the cost. For the bulk order I can sell at £2.50 each and they order in batches of 50 at a time but get through several hundred over the year so I usually have a load part turned or blanked up ready. Something I do as I do other things as I know that they are going to be needed. If I sell them on line in the shop they are £4.50, to the bulk buyer I can do them for £2.50. My problem is with the more one of a kind things as I have a bad habit of undervaluing my work. Something I am seriously looking into as I have been sort of told off by a few more experienced turners lately.
Pete
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I don't think that the costs/profit argument is particularly relevent to the hobby turner as production turning is a game that non pro's aren't bothered about. The real concern for me is the disinterest that is shown when valuing your effort and skills. I did production turning for quite a few years and there is little relationship between that and one-off pieces sold at craft fairs and the like. As long as turners undervalue their products the public at large will also undervalue them and continue to see wood and woodturning as valueless and then everyone suffers.
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Actually Tony sometimes the shot in the dark works out better. ;D ;D ;D
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Alan, I agree with you 100% but you are fighting a losing battle because the craft of woodturning is growing fast as a hobby. Many of these people look at it as a way to fund the hobby that they enjoy and maybe supplement their income. You can not blame them for that, they have no thoughts of how they effect the pros.
On the plus side the spin off from this is the craft is kept alive, and growing. This gives some professional turners the opportunity to make some money via teaching, books and demos. There is also a growing market for suppliers of tools and woodturning supplies.
I consider myself lucky to still enjoy my woodturning and am able to make a good living via production turning and the one off items I make as commissions, but this is now a very niche market and who knows one day I might have to produce one offs to sell. It does annoy me that the skill is undervalued and when I see the fantastic pieces of art that some people produce and the incredible skill required I feel sad that others don't appreciate them the same way I do and like you say the public have little idea what time and ability is required to produce these quality items. When they see turning sold cheaply they assume that is their value.
So while we agree as to the craft being under sold has anyone got ideas on how to address the problem?
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Something that does not seem to be considered here is Income tax ant Accountants fees
I sell most of my work in galleries they pay my sales into my bank after taking their 45% or more.
Because I have a Website advertising that I do tuition I declare my earnings even the cash believe it or not I do not know whether the student that gave me cash works for the government.
Hobby turners do not pay Income tax or accountants fees.
Regards George
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Steve I used to earn my living as you do now but as the recession took hold the joinery and kitchen companies that I contracted to started to suffer, quite a few went under and will probably never start up again. Members of the public were still having new kitchens fitted but without the fancy round corners so they made a saving on costs, mine as it happens.The building contractors were still supplying stairs but with square newels and balusters so once again my skills were not needed. Even one of the furniture designers that used me started to use a company "up north" who had a copy machine big enough to mass produce (but I notice that they still advertise as hand made).
So to keep eating I have started to encroach on the art and craft markets along with giving lessons and demonstrations, which I must admit to quite enjoying. George you are quite right about the tax, you never know who you are giving lessons to but I firmly believe that we all ought to pay our share anyway( just that I think I am paying someone else's too).
Of course the other thing we have to contend with are cheap imports, I know of a shop that sells 12" bowls, hand carved from what looks like rubber wood or similar for £8 each. I can't compete with that.
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Hi Steve
It is a perpetual arguement and I don't know what the answer is. You are right about competing with hobby turners, so I don't do it and I don't want to fight anyone about it. I have seen some fantastic work produced by non pro's and while they may be promoting the craft and getting an income to support their hobby, it frustates me when I think of how much more value would be brought to woodturning if they thought a little more about it. I also agree with you about hobbyists helping to keep the craft alive and there must be some turners out there under the age of 40 although I haven't seen many. Production turning in this neck of the woods (Cornwall ) died a death several years ago ( although I still get requests from time to time most of my income comes from teaching,demonstrations and the gallery market) and I don't know of any full time professional turners doing it down here any more.George also brought up a valid point about another cost, the tax man. How many hobby turners who sell their work declare their earnings?
John, I approached a posh end supermarket ( who supposedly support local economies ) a while ago about selling salad bowls in my local store after seeing the imported rubberwood stave constructed rubbish on sale there. After taking some samples and talking to the manager ( who to be fair was quite enthusiastic ) the head office couldn't even be bothered to reply to me. >:(
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Do hobby turners really compete much for sales , especially in galleries ? also it should be remembered that hobby turners are the ones who make up the majority of clubs , who in turn pay for pros to demonstrate at , also pay for tuition , buy most of equipment sold by suppliers , buy mags dvd's etc produced by pro's so in fact probably contribute more than would first appear to be the case !!! ... Terry .. ( just part of my view on the topic )
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Do hobby turners really compete much for sales , especially in galleries ? also it should be remembered that hobby turners are the ones who make up the majority of clubs , who in turn pay for pros to demonstrate at , also pay for tuition , buy most of equipment sold by suppliers , buy mags dvd's etc produced by pro's so in fact probably contribute more than would first appear to be the case !!! ... Terry .. ( just part of my view on the topic )
What ?
You mean us hobby turners may not be second class citizens after all ?
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In galleries hobby turners tend to be selling at about the same prices as the pro in my experience. The problem arises at shows or the smaller sales where you see things for sale at cost at best. I( don't think anyone is saying that Graham LOL. Personally I reckon that some of the best turners around are the hobby turners, they produce some incredible work but the bone of contention is perhaps when you see a bowl for sale for say £10 e.g. the cost of the wood at best. Personally I stopped doing the smaller fairs and sales as a rule as I just can't compete. Larger multi day fairs, online sales and galleries are my main outlets as there I am competing with other full time crafts people who have to charge sensible prices in order to put food on the table. It is an ongoing argument that probably won't go away. The best argument against it is as someone said, it undermines the public impression of the value of craft work in general. It isn't just wood turning but across the board with all craft / art work.
Pete
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Terry you are quite right about the tools etc. I can remember ground files as scrapers and using millwrights tools as that was what we could get hold of. Once the hobby market really took off manufacturers started making specific tools at a price we could afford..and they made chucks for us too!! Prior to that we would turn using something like a hole saw without any teeth that you hammered your wood into. Either that or shop made cones for production spindle turning or if we had loads to do we would make a drum, I think we used to call it a Tambour. It would take anything up to a dozen spindle blanks and as it rotated you could turn one face of 12 and then turn each spindle in the drum through 45 degrees and turn the next dozen faces and so on. It all seems a bit old hat now but I still do jam chucking to reverse my bowls, I just use the disc held in the modern chuck is all.
I am sure that some of the old methods would be frowned upon these days which in some cases is dead right as they were dangerous. There was something romantic about emerging into the sunlight from a poorly lit workshop covered in dust and shavings from head to foot and sitting in the yard soaking up the sun drinking strong sweet tea and puffing on a rollup. Of course we all thought it was the dust that was making us cough not the fags and I don't miss either now!!
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Graham you certainly are not a second rate citizen , I do not know what your turning is like , but you certainly are developing in to a first rate comedian !! I really like your witty comments on these threads keep it up , but please do not see this compliment as encouragement to over do it ! ..Terry ...
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Graham you certainly are not a second rate citizen , I do not know what your turning is like , but you certainly are developing in to a first rate comedian !! I really like your witty comments on these threads keep it up , but please do not see this compliment as encouragement to over do it ! ..Terry ...
I will endeavour to restrain myself Terry.
:)
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Hobby, Pro here it goes again :) :)
For me the title matters not, the quality of work does. We all started at the beginning, at least I did and am not sure of any turner that was up and running by being born with a gouge in their posterior. :) :)
So we all made the same mistakes and probably all produced pieces that we would rather not remember but that is the fun of it.
As Terry has said one aspect of earning is from demos, tools, teaching etc etc and indeed it is those starting out in turning or the ones that want to partake in a particular discipline that opt for tuition.
Certainly my tuition has grown over the years and is a good income, the demo's while they were very busy I have found it is more profitable for me to stay in the workshop so have cut back drastically but still enjoy several at shows and locally.
Personally I have not found hobby turners to be in any form of competition with me, there are many that sell in the galleries that I do but all the work is of a high standard or it would not be there.
All the work is different as the gallery owners take a wide variety of styles so not to clash, better for them and better for the makers.
Competition if there is any is a good thing as it drives up standards and if full time turners find it difficult to compete then best pull your socks up :) :) come up with some new work or make it much more efficiently than other people.
Personally I think we all work well together, and dare I say it a lot of Pro's are semi retired-retired anyway so are they really pro, ?? But the badge does look nice :) :)
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Now you have brought up another question Mark.
What is a Pro is it somebody who earns all of their money from Woodturning or can it be somebody who earns part of their money from woodturning and has other income as well.Possibly pensions investment property.
Does it follow that a Pro produces high quality work.
Regards George
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George it should follow that pro's produce high quality work or work of acceptable quality according to the chosen finish. For example I do not polish stair spindles that are going to be painted, they get sanded with 180G paper and the rest is up to the contractor as far as I am concerned.
It is interesting to see when you Google the definition of the word professional that it comes up with "white-collar, executive, non-manual
"people in professional occupations" or "paid, salaried, non-amateur, full-time"so the first 3 let me out straight away although as a sole trader I could be the executive of my business ,so it comes down to paid (sometimes) salaried (never) non-amateur(I hate the term amateur) and full time which I am. So perhaps the RPT should change its name to Register of full time Turners?
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Hi John.
So are you saying a pro turner should be working a 40 hour week for instance .Or can somebody who has another income only work part time and still be a Pro?
You say full time but what is full time?
And don't forget you don't have to be a member of the RPT to be a full time Pro
Regards George
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Pro or hobby or leisure or full time or part time, they are just labels and mean little to me, you do not have to turn full time to produce excellent work. :) :) and you don;t have to earn money from it either, you may produce excellent work purely for pleasure or to give away, so it does not that if you do not earn money from it your work is any less valid than anyone else's. Just my thoughts, don't me I am right :) :) :) :)
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This topic is such a mine field that even the RPT are changing their stand point on what they consider 'Professional'.
At one time it was a rather vague 'majority of your earnings need to be from turning' but as there are now less and less full time professionals it seemed like a slightly outdated concept. They are now focusing on the quality of the work and having a 'professional outlook' which means that the way RPTs do business should be proffessional, things like websites, business cards, letter heads, how they present themselves and deal with the public etc. There is also a focus on encouraging and supporting members to charge proper prices and to generally promote themselves and turning in a good way. Also making sure members carry appropriate insurances and are registered with HMRC.
As you see, it is quite a complex issue. I think we can all agree though that the quality of the work is key, rather than the label.
Richard
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I agree that this is a complex issue partly because there is such wide diversity amongst both professional turners and amateurs.
I do sympathise with professional turners and in particular production turners striving to make ends meet as we all do and you are not going to change the market- if somebody want s to sell stuff cheaply you cannot stop them as Mark suggests.
The negativity of some RPTs in this thread towards hobbyists I can understand but would suggest not becoming too harsh as although on this forum more info and ideas can be got by beginners/amateurs there is two way traffic. If RPTs prefer exclusivity then have a closed forum section for yourselves but would it would enhance your skills and knowledge any better?
Steve: if you envy those who do "arty" style turning but don't have the time then why not put a little bit of time aside to follow your desire you might end up with a higher profit margin than from light pulls. There are a lot of people envious of your skills and your recent post/repost demonstrates your capability. But when you get your creative juices going please share some of your work on the forum!
Nice weather
Phil
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Having started this thread with a light hearted challenge I was't expecting such a detailed discussion and heart searching.
I feel it's now time to move on.
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When you start things on here Tony you never know where they will end up that is the fun of it. :D :D :D
Regards George
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In the context of this conversation it really doesn't matter how you define pro, or amateur, or full time or part time. The original 'problem' was that 'some turners' sell their stuff cheap and 'some other turners' find it difficult to deal with that.
So what we want to talk about ( and I don't know why I am saying 'we' because I have no interest in selling ) is how to stop, or cope with, people selling stuff at prices others don't like.
Round 2. ding ding.
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For all the concern; will anyone reach the very ones who are under pricing or the likes be reached via this Forum, maybe at best is it to be addressed at Club level.
Sadly do or are these party's even in a Club, let alone use this Forum even to know.
For once this has been the most open thread on pricing. Don't forget NI ..
Weather has been nice of late .. is spring here.