AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: BrianH on December 31, 2014, 02:43:40 PM
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I set out to e-mail this query to the insurance rep direct but I wonder how many others might be interested in the answer?
It is my habit every winter to invite club members to my workshop for turning sessions, sometimes involving instruction. I don't charge but do encourage donations to my charity of choice from my guests. I've relied on the club's AWGB insurance but thankfully never had to use it.
Just what is actually covered and, in the event of a claim, would the fact that we are all members be enough to satisfy or would some form of formal paperwork be required?
I wonder if a short article in Revs might be useful. I'd happily write it if required and the info were supplied.
All the best
Brian
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I presume it would cover members in the actual club,
Info regarding insurance is on the AWGB website in the resources section.
I think that it would not cover tuition at home as you'll need public liability cover but this is usually cheap.
Have you done a H&S check / audit to identify dangers etc, is correct PPE being used by everyone (face shield etc), these are all contributing factors.
Any further advise or specifics feel free to ask.
All the best
Ryan
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Here's a link
http://www.awgb.co.uk/woodturners-public-liability-insurance/
http://www.awgb.co.uk/documents/
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Company Registered Number : 8135399.
Registered Office : 36 Crown Rise, Watford, WD25 0NE.
Registered Charity : 11500255.
www.awgb.co.uk
Risk Assessment – Version 2.0. 25 March 2013
This document contains a sample risk assessment, a blank template and the HSE guidance for Risk Assessments (“Five Steps to Risk Assessment” (www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg163.pdf) and the “Principles of Sensible Risk Management” (www.hse.gov.uk/risk/riskmanage.pdf) guidelines.) You may also be interested to read the “Myth of the Month” pages at the HSE website: www.hse.gov.uk/myth/index.htm
What are the hazards?
Who might be harmed and how?
What are you already doing?
What further action is necessary?
Action by whom?
Actions by when?
Done
Look around your lathe and identify anything that might cause harm
If the risk associated with the hazard occurred what would be the outcome?
Describe your current precautions.
If your current precautions are OK nothing else is required other than to ensure it is still relevant, otherwise what else needs to be done?
Decide will take the action
Decide when it needs doing (also include any period reviews such as “each month” or before each meeting.
Tick it off when you’ve done it.
Power Lead on lathe
Operator or any person in passing could trip over the lead. Injury could be anything from nothing to broken bones, bruising, cuts depending where the person fell.
Tape lead to floor with hazard tape.
Prevent public access to lathe working area by public/club members.
Operator and club committee
Each meeting
At each meeting
Unlabelled finishes such as sanding sealer
Could be mistaken for something else and used inappropriately, especially if inflammable
Do not decant finishes into other containers or make sure that all containers are clearly labelled with content and safety advice. Replace lid after each use.
Keep out of public reach.
None
Tools
Could be dropped onto operator’s legs/feet causing serious injury.
Wear stout shoes to protect against cuts.
None
Wood comes loose during turning.
Piece of wood could fly into the public area causing injury.
In a public area, provide a safety screen of perspex which must be securely fastened to the lathe bench or a suitable stand in front of the lathe. On club premises ensure that all seats in front of the lathe are at least 2m away.
Check in place each event
Operator
Each event
Each event
If scorching wood: Wood catching fire.
The person demonstrating, the audience.
Ensure that there are no loose fibres of wood present before scorching starts. Ensure there is a fire extinguisher nearby.
Check in place if this is being undertaken during a demonstration
Operator and club committee
If scorching wood: Wood creating smoke.
The person demonstrating, the audience. Setting off Fire Alarms.
The purpose is to scorch the wood and not burn it. If smoke does start – stop and move to another area of scorching. Have a damp cloth nearby to smother any smoke.
Check in place if this is being undertaken during a demonstration
Operator and club committee
Risk Assessment Template
Risk assessment for (insert Branch name)
What are the hazards?
Who might be harmed and how?
What are you already doing?
What further action is necessary?
Action by whom?
Actions by when?
Done
Date Completed:By:
Signed:
AWGB Affiliated Branch and Associated Club Handbook Page 3
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Company Registered Number: 8135399
Registered Office: 36 Crown Rise, Watford, WD25 0NE
Registered Charity 1150255
www.awgb.co.uk
SAFETY IN THE WORKSHOP – AWGB Events
This guidance should be reviewed prior to any AWGB training event with all participants. The form should be signed and dated by the instructors and retained for audit purposes.
While the woodturning lathe is arguably the safest of all woodworking machines, there have been instances of serious injury being caused to the operator. The reasons for this can invariably be put down to one of three things
1. Ignorance of the correct techniques (incorrect methods are nearly always dangerous) and safety measures.
2. Taking unnecessary risks.
3. Tiredness or lack of concentration. The well-known saying ‘familiarity breeds contempt’ is particularly relevant to all wood machinists. It must be remembered that all machines can ‘bite’, and most accidents occur through lack of concentration, carelessness, and towards the end of the working day when tiredness has set in. You are advised to stop when you feel tired, or if your mind is so engrossed in something else that it prevents you from applying maximum concentration. Do not operate machinery if under the influence of spam ignore or alcohol.
GENERAL SAFETY
1. Ensure that the lathe is securely bolted down to a good solid bench, in the case of a bench model, and check the tightness of the nuts, including any stand fixings.
2. Insure the electrics are safe - the machine is properly earthed and installed in accordance with the maker’s instructions. If a second hand lathe is acquired, obtain the services of a suitably qualified person to check it over. All appliances used in a public arena should be PAT tested by a suitably qualified person annually.
3. Rubber plugs should be fitted to all woodworking machines.
4. Examine the electric cable from time to time to make sure it is in good order.
5. Isolate the lathe from the mains when changing speeds or applying the ‘test of tightness’.
ON THE LATHE
1. Check the owner/ operator’s manual for proper speed recommendations. Use slower speeds for larger diameter or rough pieces, and increase speed for smaller diameters and pieces that are balanced. If the lathe is shaking or vibrating, lower the speed. If the work piece vibrates, always stop the machine to check the reason and remedy the fault before continuing.
2. Make certain that the belt guard or cover is in place. Check that all clamping devices (locks), such as on the tailstock and tool rest are tight.
3. Hold turning tools securely on the tool rest, and hold the tool in a controlled but comfortable manner. Always use a slower speed when starting until the work piece is balanced this helps to avoid the possibility of an unbalanced piece jumping out of the lathe and striking the operator.
4. Only run a lathe in reverse if the chuck / faceplate and the spindle have a locking system.
5. Know your capabilities and limits. An experienced woodturner may be capable of techniques and procedures not recommended for beginner turners.
6. When using a faceplate, be certain the work piece is solidly mounted.
7. When turning between centres, be certain the work piece is secure.
8. Do not overreach, keep proper footing and balance at all times.
9. Remove chuck keys and adjusting wrenches. Form a habit of checking for these before switching on lathe.
10. Make sure that there is at least 20mm of tool rest protruding by the end of the wood on which you are working.
11. Stop the lathe when making adjustments to the tool rest.
12. Minimise the downward leverage on the tools by keeping the rest as close as possible to the work piece.
13. Never leave the lathe running unattended. Turn power off. Do not leave the lathe until it comes to a complete stop.
14. Keep lathe in good repair. Check for damaged parts, alignment, binding of moving parts and other conditions that may affect its operation.
15. Stop the lathe before moving the toolrest.
16. Turn the workpiece by hand to ensure that it turns freely before turning on.
17. Always start the lathe at a low speed and increase the speed until it is comfortable to turn. If in doubt use a slower speed.
18. If using a naked flame such as a blowtorch ensure the workspace is clear of easily combustible items such as sealers, finishes, dust and shavings. Keep a fire extinguisher nearby. It is preferable to do this type of operation outside well away from anything that may catch fire.
19. If using any form of power carver always follow the manufacturer’s instructions. DO NOT use with one hand – always use two hands. Power carvers are extremely dangerous and when misused and can cause serious injury and/or death.
20. When turning thin walled items DO NOT use an unprotected 240V bulb inside the workpiece. Use a low voltage LED device or similar.
DRESS
1. Sensible dress must be worn. Loose, dangling sleeves must be avoided at all costs.
2. Wear a smock, overalls or an apron. All should be high fitting the neck to stop shavings and chippings from finding their way into uncomfortable places.
3. Good strong footwear is also very important. Tools are sometimes dropped or roll off the bench, and can cause nasty wounds if you are shod in trainers or similar footwear.
4. Tie back long hair; do not wear gloves, jewellery or any dangling objects that may catch in rotating parts or accessories.
5. Always use eye protection, preferably use a full face visor.
6. Protect your self from dust using a mask, dust extraction etc.
SHARPENING
1. Position your grinder at a suitable height to suit your stance. Make sure it is clear of all obstacles.
2. On sharpening - some form of eye protection must always be worn when using the grindstone.
3. Be aware that sparks are a fire risk. Keep combustible material, including wire wool, away from the grinder.
I/we (the instructors) confirm that we will review this guidance with the students and I/we agree to promote good working practices.
Print name
Signature
Date:
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Company Registered Number : 8135399.
Registered Office : 36 Crown Rise, Watford, WD25 0NE.
Registered Charity : 11500255.
www.awgb.co.uk
Health and Safety – General Safety Guidance - Version 2.0 – 14.2.2013
A woodturning lathe can be a dangerous piece of workshop equipment in unskilled hands. With attention to the following basic guidelines and careful, methodical, and tidy workshop practice, the incidence of accidents can be drastically reduced. If in doubt about the safety of any procedure, please seek experienced, or better yet, qualified advice.
1. Safe, effective use of a wood lathe requires study and knowledge of procedures for using this tool. Read and thoroughly understand the label warnings on the lathe and in the owner's/operator's manual.
2. Always wear safety goggles or safety glasses that include side protectors and a full face shield when needed. Wood dust can be harmful to your respiratory system. Use a dust mask or helmet and proper ventilation (dust collection system) in dusty work conditions. Wear hearing protection during extended periods of operation.
3. Tie back long hair, do not wear gloves, loose clothing, jewellery or any dangling objects that may catch in rotating parts or accessories.
4. Check the owner/operator's manual for proper speed recommendations. Use slower speeds for larger diameter or rough pieces and increased speed for smaller diameters and pieces that are balanced. If the lathe is shaking or vibrating, lower the speed. If the workpiece vibrates, always stop the machine to check the reason.
5. Make certain that the belt guard or cover is in place. Check that all clamping devices (locks), such as on the tailstock and toolrest are tight.
6. Rotate your workpiece by hand to make sure it clears the toolrest and bed before turning the lathe "on". Be sure that the workpiece turns freely and is firmly mounted. It is always safest to turn the lathe "off" before adjusting the tool rest.
7. Exercise caution when using stock with cracks, splits, checks, bark, knots, irregular shapes or protuberances.
8. Hold turning tools securely on the toolrest and hold the tool in a controlled but comfortable manner. Always use a slower speed when starting until the workpiece is balanced. This helps avoid the possibility of an unbalanced piece jumping out of the lathe and striking the operator.
9. When running a lathe in reverse, it is possible for a chuck or faceplate to unscrew unless it is securely tightened on the lathe spindle with a locking machine screw.
10. Know your capabilities and limits. An experienced woodturner may be capable of techniques and procedures not recommended for beginning turners.
11. When using a faceplate, be certain the workpiece is solidly mounted. When turning between centres, be certain the workpiece is secure.
12. Always remove the toolrest before sanding or polishing operations.
13. Don't overreach, keep proper footing and balance at all times.
14. Keep lathe in good repair. Check for damaged parts, alignment, binding of moving parts and other conditions that may affect its operation.
15. Keep tools sharp and clean for better and safer performance. Wear eye protection when sharpening. Don't force a blunt tool. Don't use a tool for a purpose not intended. Keep tools out of reach of children. Do not be tempted to use modified tools, such as converted files.
16. Consider your work environment. Don't use lathe in damp or wet locations. Do not use in presence of flammable liquids or gases. Keep work area well lit.
17. Stay alert. Watch what you are doing, use common sense. Don't operate tool when you are tired or under the influence of spam ignore or alcohol.
18. Guard against electric shock. Inspect electric cables regularly for damage. Avoid the use of extension cables. The power outlet supplying the lathe should, for safety, be fitted with RCD protection.
19. Remove chuck keys and adjusting spanners. Form a habit of checking for these before switching on the lathe.
20. Never leave the lathe running unattended. Turn power off. Don't leave the lathe until it comes to a complete stop.
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The above should hopefully help in regards to safety requirements etc.
Let me know if I can help further.
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It doesn't actually mention it in that synopsis but I have always understood that club-endorsed activities are covered as well as actual meetings. I'm sure someone will put us right but you can see why I threw the matter out for discussion.
Brian
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Better to be safe than sorry, especially in the sad old "I'll sue you" world we live in, an accident is an accident it's not done on purpose!
I think the last time I checked for myself public liability for me was going to cost £4 a month which was cover up to 2000000, worth getting a quote just to see.
Preventions better than cure, as they say.
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I'm guessing the best person to ask would be:
Development & Training
Peter Bradwick
Trustee
Tel: 01633 873640
development@awgb.co.uk
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The AWGB no longer has an insurance officer - which is you will find no reference to one. If you have queries relating to the club insurance, you should contact Tennyson. the contact details are on the insurance page.
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Tom Callingham
Tennyson Insurance,
Telephone: 01243 832048
e-mail: Tom.Callingham@tennysoninsurance.co.uk
tennysoninsurance.co.uk
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Our club is still using the Craftsman Policy via i W Wallace. The Public Liability element includes member to member cover anywhere in the UK. It also covers a non member receiving supervised tuition. The trouble is in the actual wording which does not spell out the example given.
To be sure of being covered it seems sensible to establish that the event is a club function.
It will be interesting to find out what Tennyson have to say.
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Yes please keep us updated, would be interesting to see what/who is actually covered.
I presume none members would have some form or something to sign, (legal issues these days)
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A non member is a member of the public, hence the term public liability.
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I do think even though the AWGB has no Insurance officer they should be able to offer some guidance I am told however that this is not allowed under
current FCA Rules I also understand if you have a Club function it should be in the Clubs official programme maybe we need a Q&A page from the
Insurance company Tennyson I have looked at the policy we have from them in PDf format it is 136 pages long. Regards John
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.... this is not allowed under current FCA Rules.....
Please forgive what may be a naive question but what's “FCA” in this context.
MC
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HI MC.
The FCA is the financial conducts authority.
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Hello everyone
this question has been raised many times in the past.
We have been advised by both our former broker, Ian Wallace and our new one Tennyson that we should stop giving advice or acting as a central organiser for the insurance. This is due to the fact that persons acting in such a manner are required to be appropriately qualified and approved and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority.
So all these questions should be directed to the broker. I would also recommend that you all ask the question individually as each circumstance will differ and only the insurer or broker is qualified to give specific advice.
however, I can state that the policy provides 3rd party public liability cover for tne club and its activities. It does not provide cover for indiviuals acting on their own account. And that has always been the case.
regards Dave
AWGB Treasurer
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Hi David,
Thanks for posting in this thread I think over the years we may have had our hand held to much on things like Insurance I do think it is
up to clubs to ask Tennyson Insurance any thing they are not sure about after all if we have a problem with our House Insurance or Car Insurance
we go direct to the Insurer or maybe get someone in the club to liaise with them via email and keep the answers for future reference maybe even
share these answers with other Clubs if that is not contravening any rules we all know what a minefield Insurance is! I have read part of the policy
which is 136 pages and as always with insurance some things are open to interpretation so go to the Insurer and ask.
Regards John
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I have no legal qualification. However, I have had considerable experience of legal documents relating to sales and contracts.
In the present context the term Club Activities is open to interpretation. It has been suggested that these are limited to those in the club programme. I beg to differ. Club activities comprise anything where the club has an involvement, and in the extreme this can involve a single member demonstrating at a specific function. What it is not is a member making his/ her own arrangements to do the same thing.
The club should ensure that the former is authorised/arranged and the individual is identified with the club.
I hope this statement is helpful and does not contravene FCA rules.
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you should also ensure that it is minuted in the club's minute book.
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Sorry but I don't agree. That is much too formal.
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you should also ensure that it is minuted in the club's minute book.
I'm involved with a number of organisations that circulate minutes of committee meetings [usually as email attachments] but none of them actually have Minutes written in a book.
MC
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The reason for entering it in the minute book or however your club/branch records their meetings is to demonstrate that it is a part of your club's activities and not a member just acting on his/her own and then claiming to be acting for the club.
If it is minuted correctly, passed by your committee, risk assessed and H&S requirements adhered to then it is a properly organised event and should pass without a hitch. On the other hand if a club member fancies setting up a stall somewhere and does not put it through the club channels then it is not a club activity and therefore he needs to find his/her own insurance.
(I'm not meant to be advising you on any insurance policy within the AWGB so this is the last time I will from now on sink or swim) ;)
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I'm sure we all want you to keep afloat. I certainly do.
The danger here ( not covered by elf & sayvetee ) is over egging the pudding.
I'm sure that a suitably worded minute would be strong evidence of a given activity. But is it really necessary to call a committee meeting?
In the past as Club Secretary I have provided members with a short letter of authority stressing the need to follow the usual safety measures. In particular use of the club's safety screens.
Again in the extreme but possibly at the weakest end of the scale I think a verbal arrangement would be valid. After all English Law recognises verbal contracts, and agreement by slapping hands.
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May I encourage further debate by asking what people think of an umbrella organisation prevented from giving advice on such an important subject?
We are being urged to obtain clarifications direct from the insurer. But what reliance can be put on the answers?
It should be possible to write a policy which uses wording that reflects the risks likely to be encountered. The Craftsman Policy would be a good starting point.
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I understand what you are saying complicity, there are so many "grey" areas surrounding these types of issues especially surrounding correcty worded legal documentation etc.
I do think it would probably be an idea to get a couple of public liability quotes to see costs etc as apparently it's quite cheap (can't confirm this though).
Would be interesting to see what AWGB insurance actually does cover and not cover, in writing so that it's not word of mouth or "hear say", please keep us up to date with any further developments.
Good luck.
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As Secretary of our Club, I do not maintain a minute book. All minutes are held electronically and circulated to the committee and to any other member who requests them.
For events, we have an authorisation form which is completed by the organiser or leader for the event, and this is signed off on behalf of the committee by our events organiser. The event is then announced to the club at large at the next meeting by the Chairman. We feel this is sufficient to deem any event to be a "club event" or to use the new language, a "club activity".
There are plenty of good PL insurance offers out there- the best one is from Zurich co-incidentally, which covers around 30K market traders. Ideal if you are doing events under your own steam and not as a club. Zurich and about 9 others will quote for PL cover so plenty there for people to research.
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Tony,
The AWGB no longer use the Craftsman policy from Aviva for any club so why would you expect us to give advice on it? You can debate it all you like but we are bound by the FCA rules, which I assume are put in place to ensure those with the appropriate knowledge and qualifications are the ones that give advice.
Before signing up with Tennyson we went to great lengths to ensure the policy was suitable for our needs and those of our clubs and we asked many questions on all the scenarios that might be encountered. Representatives from Tennyson were also invited to a club evening so they could see first hand how we operated. The new policy also saved considerable amounts of money for almost all clubs and also for the AWGB itself.
As already stated, the brokers (Tennyson) are the people to contact for advice on the insurance policy we do use. They are very helpful and will answer any questions you may have.
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Paul
We are in danger of getting at cross purposes.
I am already aware of most of what you have posted above, but not the bit about the lengths taken before signing up to Tennyson.
I did not ask for comments on the Craftsman Policy.
As it stands the AWGB has stated that it has been advised not to offer advice on this subject, and therefore it says clubs should refer queries to Tennyson.
From that I draw the inference that the wording of their policy document (I've sent for a copy) is still open to clarification.
If that is so I repeat my opinion that it should be possible to formulate a document which is directly relevant. Was that discussed with Tennyson to avoid the need for 136 pages of text? Do clubs want to have to rely on the answer to a query rather than the wording of the policy itself?
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The previous craftsman policy was also a very lengthy document with no specific detail on woodturning activities so it was always necessary to obtain clarification on many queries from the broker. The new policy is no different in that respect and I would suggest that no insurer will ever be able to fully document every possible scenario that their customers may encounter. For that reason, it is and always will be necessary to conact the provider when clarification is required.
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David as a Branch Secretary you must have a copy of the Insurance Policy which came into force on 1st January 2015 if so you surely would have
noticed it is Underwritten by Zurich as you recommend so you should be more than pleased.
Tony in the past I have always understood (Right or Wrong) that a club should have these CLUB EVENTS on their programme.
One further point I would like to make and I am a Club Secretary is in this day and age of everyone suing for compensation if a Club was found to be
negligent it is then possible that the Committee could be liable.This to me is very concerning.
Regards John
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Hi John,
Yes it's good news that the new policy is with Zurich. Aviva were always expensive.
If as you say it is necessary to have events listed in the club program, then we and I guess a lot of other clubs will not be able to do this. Outside event organisers do not always give us the luxury of having the time to put something in our program - often it is all we can do to get an email round and announce at the next meeting. I'm sure your club has the same problems.
This is obviously a point we need clarification on from Tennyson -I;ll email them tomorrow.
Your point re liability is well made - some clubs have considered incorporating and others have sought legal advice on the liability issue. The new insurance scheme may provoke us all into reviewing our positions again.
David
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Email just sent to Tom Callingham and I;ll post any reply I get on here.
D.
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David
We do not have a problem with outside event organizers we must be lucky I was really talking about the events that our club organizes
Thanks for contacting Tennyson I am sure a lot of us will be interested in their reply as for liability we as Clubs only pay Tennyson for our all risks
policy if you want cover.The AWGB pay the public liability on our behalf so surely they have a vested interest without breaking any rules of the FCA?
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John, only the affiliated clubs get public liability insurance paid for by the AWGB. Associated clubs can take advantage of the same insurance at the same rates but they pay for it themselves.
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If any Forum members are part of an associated club, I'd be interested to know if their club has received the premium invoice and cover documents for public liability as yet.
David
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Hello David,
Our Club is Affiliated and I have as Secretary received all documents, have you had a reply from Tennyson yet?
Regards John
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John,
No reply from Tennyson as yet.
Good to know the affiliated clubs have their paperwork!! Like most of the associated clubs, we applied for the insurance last year as requested and nothing has come back.
I;ll give Tenyyson a day or so longer and then will phone.
David
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Have been badgered by our Club Treasurer to find out what is going on so have called Tom Callingham. Voicemail was on so left a message for him to call - he hasn't replied to emails yet.
David
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UPDATE
Tom Callingham has just called me back.
Tennyson expect all clubs to do "what's reasonable" to ensure a safe event. Tom was not specific on how we deem any event a Club Event but I managed to get him to confirm that if the club were running the event, the appropriate planning and risk assessment should be in place.
If the club is attending an event, then "keep track that you attended". I guess however your club does this is down to you.
Tennyson will not be providing any guidelines on the policy or FAQ's as they do not do this.
Tom also said that the AWGB are paying in full for all PL policies and Tennyson will be invoicing the AWGB later this month. The AWGB will then invoice the relevant clubs.
I asked Tom to confirm that we (Cheam) had PL cover and from when. After checking, he said he had our application and that we were covered from 1st January. I asked him to confirm this by email to me.
If anyone has any comments on the policy, Tom's number is 01243 832048.
David
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Not a club member so perhaps I should mind my own business.... but that all sounds a bit to vague for my liking.
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Graham
This debate has been an attempt to clarify matters. Clearly with limited success.
It is pretty obvious from the above information from Tennyson that you can only rely on the wording of the policy document.
However perhaps Paul would give us more detail on the discussions which took place regarding cover being suitable for our activities.
In particular if any assurances were put in writing.
Incidentally I have been advised that the FCA were right to indicate to AWGB that they should not give advice on matters relating to insurance.
However, that this should not prevent AWGB from having an insurance co-ordinator to assist clubs by obtaining answers which are passed on without further comment.
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Graham,
I can only say it was not easy to get even the info noted above!! Tennyson really did not want to commit on a definition of "club events".
David
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Hello Gentlemen
I have been watching this thread with interest as this insurance business has taken up a very large part of my spare time since October and given the apparent confusion I thought it prudent to set the facts down.
Last year I was contacted by Tennyson who said they may be able to offer us a better deal on the insurance, something which many of you have been asking about for some years, especially in relation to the all risks element.
I passed this to Paul Hannaby and he said in an earlier post we both met with them and they attended the first half of a club meeting at Forest Of Dean (I was demonstrating there at the time).
They went away and came back with the offer of which you are aware. For the majority of clubs the PL is cheaper and the All Risks at £60 for £12,000 cover is first class. Overall this saves the AWGB just over £900 a year and across all the clubs there is a massive saving of over £8000 on All Risks Premiums. Indeed one club stands to save £540 per year.
However, during this process it was pointed out to us that under FCA guidance we should not be operating the system as we were, as this effectively made us a broker. Therefore, we are no longer able to offer any insurance advice or broker the service as we have done in the past. It is important to note that this would also have applied had we not changed broker.
The AWGB pays the PL premium for all Affiliated Branches whilst the Associated Clubs pay their own. I felt it was impossible for Tennyson to manage that arrangement so I arranged with them that the All Risks would be paid by the clubs and branches and I would, on behalf of the AWGB, pay the PL for all clubs and branches and reclaim the monies from the associated Clubs through a tiered subscription fee, of which all club secretaries will be aware having read my letter.
We (AWGB) prepared a letter explaining things as clearly as we could. I posted 120 letters on 7 October. Since then things haven't gone quite to plan.
At least 6 of the letters didn't arrive at their destination, some clubs hadn't told us about the change of officer so it went to the wrong person, some secretaries forgot to tell anyone about it, or forgot the letter altogether, some emails from Tennyson went in spam folders - you name it I've heard it!
At the 11th December there were still over 50 clubs who had failed to respond to Tennyson. The Regional Reps were pressed into service to chase these people up.
And even as of yesterday there are still 20 clubs who haven't replied to Tennyson!
Eventually this will all get sorted and I will receive a bill which I will pay immediately and then prepare the invoices for the clubs - all 60 of them. As I have to work out the different levels of membership, email or print and post the invoice I don't expect this to happen much before the end of the next couple of weeks.
BUT.... rest assured - if your club or branch have replied to Tennyson you are covered. f you haven't heard from them then please get in touch, with either me (by email please!) or direct to Tennyson. The contact at Tennyson has now changed to Craig Etherington email Craig.Etherington @ tennysoninsurance.co.uk although Tom is still around. (note I have inserted a space before and after the @ to avoid spam generators)
As for some of the other comments on this thread.
The policy from Zurich s extensive and covers all aspects not just what we do. It is as long as it is and thee is nothing we can do about that.
The Zurich policy provides the same cover as the Aviva policy - we checked!
It is the club that is covered for club activities throughout the UK.
Individuals within clubs are not covered if they are working on their own account - individuals should get their own cover. Tennyson do not provide insurance for individuals. I use Ian Wallace for my own personal cover but who you choose is up to you.
If the club does something outside it's normal programme of events then whatever it is, it should be noted in an appropriate manner. This could be an email between the officers, a note in the committee meeting minutes but it should be noted.
All events, whether part of the regular programme, or not, should have a risk assessment. Normally a single risk assessment reviewed annually for the club at its regular meeting place is adequate. Each external or outside event should be assessed separately. There is guidance in the handbook about risk assessments. Basically it is common sense.
This situation is no different to the previous situation with our previous policy. I have had many discussions with some of you when I was insurance officer on some of these topics.
And now this business of having folks round to your shed for a turning event. It can be covered if such a meeting is scheduled by the club and is a "club event". But... and it is a big but. A risk assessment must be in place, it should be checked prior to each visit or updated if anything changes. The PL cover does not extend to the individual's premises. In exactly the same way if you trip over a flagstone at the community hall and break you hip you sue the community Hall , not the club. The same principle applies.
Finally, I am very grateful to David Buskell for posting the reply from the broker. However, please do not think that this can be quoted this as any evidence that it applies to your circumstances. Each case is different so if you have any concerns about the insurance arrangements for your club you must take responsibility for getting clarification from the broker, not a public forum. It just the same as you car insurance or house insurance. if you have a question ask the insurance company or the broker.
If you've got this far, thanks for reading. I'm afraid it has taken more effort that we thought to change the policy over and it isn't over for us yet. if you have any worries about invoicing please email me
Happy New Year and Safe Turning to you all.
Cheers Dave
AWGB Treasurer
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I make absolutely no comment about this particular company but it has been my experience that the only positive thing you can rely on from any big business is that their intension is that they should win. not you.
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I make absolutely no comment about this particular company but it has been my experience that the only positive thing you can rely on from any big business is that there intension is that they should win. not you.
Insurance companies share many characteristics with bookmakers (sometimes known as Turf Accountants!)
Has anybody ever met a destitute bookmaker?
My personal experience of a claim when the roof blew off of my shed is that my insurers consistently niggled about every item.
THere used to be an insurance company that advertised ”we won't make a drama out of a crisis“ - but I haven't seen those ads lately!!
MC
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Thanks to Dave A for the background to this change-over and for the extra info.
The conversation with Tom Callingham today was a) on behalf of my club re payment of premium for PL and b) as a general query on behalf of the authors of postings in this thread (with possibly a few exceptions) as there is some confusion how we should all define "club events".
Tennysons' advice was helpful and how you deal with this is down to each club to decide as I said in my post.
We can now rest easier having been told by the broker that our insurance is in place and we await the premium invoice from the AWGB.
David
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I offer my commiserations to Dave Atkinson for all the bother he's had to put up with, and it occurs to me that they should employ someone part time to deal with these time consuming duties. Could be paid for out of the pay back from the tax man.
Going back to the original post, gatherings of fellow turners 'at home' is common practice in Germany. With their Teutonic discipline I feel sure they have relevant insurance.
As far as we are concerned I would like to stress that it is in everyones interest to avoid restricting the term Club Activities.
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In case you weren't aware, all of the people involved in running the AWGB are volunteers. None of them receive any payment for their time. This is why we are always glad to hear from others willing to volunteer some of their free time to help keep the organisation running.
If I was visiting a friend's workshop for what was effectively a gathering of fellow woodturners as a group of friends, I wouldn't expect them to have public liability insurance. I would be going on the basis that I understand and accept the risks involved and I would expect other participants to do the same. If the meeting was on a more formal basis then it would need risk assessments etc. before any insurer would cover it anyway and any club bringing such meetings under their umbrella would need to ensure best practices were followed in order to absolve their own committee of any personal liability.
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I am going to post a reply to this thread, it is not aimed at or intended to apply to anyone in particular but to woodturners as a whole. I know there will be certain members of the committee holding their heads in their hands in despair and wondering why I said this but as my old Mum used to say "some things just have to be said".
If more woodturners were to get involved with their local clubs or groups by showing a willingness to serve on committees or take part in events then our committees as a whole would be stronger both locally and nationally (although I think you would be hard pressed to form a better national committee than the one we have now).There must be accountants out there who turn as a hobby and could do the club accounts in their tea break and surely they would be better treasurers than some others. Similarly there must be managers or perhaps even retired officers who could chair a club better than some, (me for example, I had never chaired a committee until I started my local club and I know there are better skilled people who could take the chair).
All this thing with the insurance went completely over some people's heads but others grasped it immediately, they should be the ones dealing with it at club level. I think my club is the same as every other one in the country, it is always the same handful of members doing the work and always the same handful sloping off so as not to do it.We know you are doing it so stop and think of how efficient your branch could be if EVERYONE chipped in workwise. Clubs are meant to be enjoyable for all not just the lazy and if you think this tirade is not aimed at you ask yourself honestly what you have done for your club over the last 12 months and I don't mean just paying a membership fee. Ask yourself when did you last put the chairs out or away, or make the tea or even turn a piece for the competition because I would hazard a guess that all those that do put the chairs out are also the ones entering competitions or washing up or sweeping up.
I am convinced that some of our members locally do not have lathes and do not turn, I don't have a problem with that but I do have problem with them not helping when they are probably the best people for the job .
Tirade over!
This crossed with Paul's post but I will post it anyway.
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Just had a call from Craig Etherington @ Tennysons- very useful and helpful. Have to pop out but will post details here later.
David
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I was going to write notes on my conversation with Craig but when I got back I found this in my Inbox. Craig was very helpful and understood the concerns we have expressed.
It's now up to each club to do what they have to, I guess. I did inform Craig I would be posting his email here, by the way.
Hi David,
Thank you for your email.
I have spoken with David Atkinson and I am of the opinion of what he has stated previously on the AWGB forums. All I can comment in regards to safety procedures etc. is what we have stated on our proposal forms and is defined in our policy wording,
‘ You must take reasonable precautions & ensure you follow all relevant safety procedures.’
As we are not experts in woodturning or Health & Safety we cannot advise as to what is the best procedures to undertake. The AWGB provides Safety Guidelines and we would advise that you follow the relevant protocols set out by your governing body.
In terms of what would be deemed a club activity/event, it would be something your committee/organisation has approved and is taking part in. We would expect that it is minted within your club communications.
In the circumstance that the outside demonstration takes place before the next meeting is held, then an email conversation amongst the committee would suffice providing it is retrospectively included.
Finally,
I must stress and remind that the policy covers the activities of the organisation and not those of the individual members. You must act as an organisation to be covered – individuals doing woodturning on their own time are not covered under this policy.
I hope this answers your questions.
Kind Regards,
Craig Etherington | New Business Executive
T: 01243 832144 | F: 01243 210112
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Referring back again to the original question from Brian H, in his post above Paul has very neatly summed up the options. Regardless of anything I may have said regarding the insurance option I should make it clear that I was only expressing the view that it is a possibility. In practice it is NOT the way we operate in our club.
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Thanks David for posting the email from Tennyson it makes some things a little more clear.
Regards John
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Wow, didn't I uncover a bag of worms?Thanks everybody for your contemplations, opinions and musings I reckon a lot of eyes beyond mine have been opened.
Anyone want to visit my workshop now???
All the best
Brian
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If I were to come would it be at my own risk?
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Why would he have a workshop at your risk ? Thats like saying he will meet you at your own convenience. :) <ducking>
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May I suggest you carefully read Paul Hannaby's post which sets out the position.
Brian hasn't answered my question yet, but I would expect him to give a one word answer -- yes.
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Hello All
thanks for posting David B - I hope that has set a number of minds at rest.
It seems from some comments that some of you think there has been a change in cover provided. This is not the case. The cover provided by the Zurich policy is no different than the policy offered by Aviva. The definition of a club activity has not altered. The situation regarding home workshop activities are viewed no differently now than they were before.
If you think something has changed then it means you were under a misapprehension before.
I have spent many hours discussing the policy with Ian Wallace when I was the Insurance Officer and Paul and I have had extensive discussions with Tennysoin before we recommended the change in policy.
I have also had these discussions with many of you in the past.
So I hope you all have the information you require, but if you feel there is something else you need please let me know by email
Cheers Dave
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Twas meant to be a joke Tony, as in 'Your Risk' being a place. Obviously not one of my better days.
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Tony, you are more than welcome to visit my garage but not only will it be at your own risk, it will be on your own because I'm now far too feardy to go in there myself.
Brian
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As they say in French "courage mon brave".
At 89.5 I'm not likely to knock you about.
Another trip to the Norfolk Coast is tempting, but I will have to wait till they improve access to the A14.
Anyway many thanks for the offer.