AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: andersonec on September 17, 2014, 07:17:44 PM
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We have (every month) a demonstrator at the club, I have often asked "Why don't we video the demo then it can be used by the club members". The point is a demo can go on for two or more hours and if you want to try to do the piece demonstrated you can get as far as mounting your timber in the lathe, turning it round and then stand there scratching your head wondering what was done next, it is impossible to try and copy anything which was demonstrated at club meetings unless you have a photographic memory which will last you until you have time to get on the lathe.
The answer I get is "Professionals don't want to be video'd" or "They will own the copyright" or "They want to sell you their DVD's" or "It's too much trouble to edit the video and get it onto disk" so many barriers I gave up.
Why then do the demonstrators not hand out a little precis to anybody wanting to have a go at the piece, after all, what is the point of the demo? Instruction on how to use the tools? for every demonstrator there is a different way to approach the work with every given tool, their technique could be described on their hand-out, they know what they are going to demo (usually the same thing at every club) so it would be easy to prepare a sheet with the sequence of events which would help anyone trying to emulate their work. Please don't say it would be too time consuming or too expensive.
Andy
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Judging by what I see on Youtube, in America it is perfectly normal to video visiting demonstrators, don't know about here as I am not a club member.
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Hello Andy,
I can understand Demonstrators not wanting to be videoed while doing a demonstration I have seen some of these videos on you tube and
Facebook and 99% are very amateurish and show the operation in a very bad light. And why shouldn't the want to sell their DVDs.
I do not agree that demonstrators do the same demo at every club every demonstrator we have had at our club we have discussed what we would like
demonstrated most demonstrators will give you several options and some keep records as to what the demonstrated at our club the last time they came.
Also a majority will offer hand outs and many will say "if you want to know something and forgot to ask send me an email"
I would suggest whoever does the bookings at your club get them to communicate with the demonstrator prior to the demonstrator and get what your
club wants to see.
Regards John
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Why then do the demonstrators not hand out a little precis to anybody wanting to have a go at the piece, after all, what is the point of the demo?
Andy
It's a very fair point, Andy. Many is the time that I have produced printed hand-outs for the staff training that I have done in Communication Skills and Health & Safety, indeed, it is an almost obligatory aspect of my staff-training. Furthermore, when I train I am moving, talking and demonstrating amongst my 'audience', whereas most woodturning demos happen up on a stage and can be viewed from what is often not a good angle. Yes, we have live video feed to monitors at our club (and at many others, no doubt) , but how often does the demonstrator move in front of the camera as he leans across his work.
I, for one, would welcome your suggestion being taken up by the professionals.
Les
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Although we've never asked to record a demonstrator (we do video & project), I've only ever had one demonstrator ask that we don't record him. The reason given was purely the worry that the opening prelims (Safety info) would be removed and thereby leave the demo without an important aspect considering what he was going to demo for us.
I've also seen some of the American demo evenings on youTube and agree that they are normally of 'iffy' quality, video and sound. Truthfully I normally get fed up after 10 minutes or so, of waffle and turn it off.
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I normally get fed up after 10 minutes or so, of waffle and turn it off.
I admire your endurance, I cannot usually watch them for that long
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Personally it wouldn't bother me being videoed when demoing as long as it was done properly. As someone mentioned it isn't always possible to make sure that what you are doing is visible at some clubs where there is perhaps only one camera that ideally needs to be re-aligned every now and then. One of the problems with hand outs for me is that often the demos I do adapt to suit the audience as I get to know where they are coming from. A video would overcome this for those that wish to re-view the demo though.
Pete
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I tend to take lots of stills when I see a demo at least then I have a track of the process and the sequence of events. Must admit though when I've been to Burnham club as a visitor they must have thought I was a bit mad. Will be doing again this Saturday as we have Joey Richardson demoing at
Crow Valley in Cwmbran. -- Julian
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Hello Andy,
I can understand Demonstrators not wanting to be videoed while doing a demonstration I have seen some of these videos on you tube and
Facebook and 99% are very amateurish and show the operation in a very bad light. And why shouldn't the want to sell their DVDs.
I do not agree that demonstrators do the same demo at every club every demonstrator we have had at our club we have discussed what we would like
demonstrated most demonstrators will give you several options and some keep records as to what the demonstrated at our club the last time they came.
Also a majority will offer hand outs and many will say "if you want to know something and forgot to ask send me an email"
I would suggest whoever does the bookings at your club get them to communicate with the demonstrator prior to the demonstrator and get what your
club wants to see.
Regards John
Hi John.
I have nothing against demonstrators selling their video's, I have bought some and as for the quality of club recordings, I am not asking for professional stuff, just a film of the sequence of events, if the clubs camera is naff so be it, all that is required is a reminder of the whole job.
I would like to see the governing body discuss this subject at their meetings, some way of leaving the club with a useful way of attempting the project, if not then the demo is all but useless in my eyes and it seems the club is only coughing up for an evenings entertainment, I have never seen anyone at our club attempt anything shown by any of the demonstrators.
Andy
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Personally it wouldn't bother me being videoed when demoing as long as it was done properly. As someone mentioned it isn't always possible to make sure that what you are doing is visible at some clubs where there is perhaps only one camera that ideally needs to be re-aligned every now and then. One of the problems with hand outs for me is that often the demos I do adapt to suit the audience as I get to know where they are coming from. A video would overcome this for those that wish to re-view the demo though.
Pete
Thanks Pete.
Maybe mention this at your next AWGB meeting.
Andy
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Why then do the demonstrators not hand out a little precis to anybody wanting to have a go at the piece, after all, what is the point of the demo?
Andy
It's a very fair point, Andy. Many is the time that I have produced printed hand-outs for the staff training that I have done in Communication Skills and Health & Safety, indeed, it is an almost obligatory aspect of my staff-training. Furthermore, when I train I am moving, talking and demonstrating amongst my 'audience', whereas most woodturning demos happen up on a stage and can be viewed from what is often not a good angle. Yes, we have live video feed to monitors at our club (and at many others, no doubt) , but how often does the demonstrator move in front of the camera as he leans across his work.
I, for one, would welcome your suggestion being taken up by the professionals.
Les
Thanks Les, especially coming from someone who can turn out very nice stuff, I am a relative newcomer by the way so this is why I am asking this, I mainly make jewellery boxes but do some turning to compliment them.
Andy
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Hello Andy,
One of the demonstrators at our Club did a Demo on earring stands not only was the an excellent demo he supplied drawings of the finished
product he gave away a dozen kits to members and two jigs for drilling the holes and a few members always bring something to the Members work table
that they have seen demonstrated.
As for the Governing Body (AWGB) being involved with Demonstrators at club meetings surely this down to the club Committee why do you not ask one of
your Committee to raise your points at their next meeting?
Regards John
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hello Andy, I thought I would add my points as a professional turner/demonstrator.
I do not make or sell DVD's but I am still reluctant to a certain extent for people to film me,my reasons are this: Sometimes even professional turners make mistakes when demoing and I for one would not like to see my mistakes put on you tube as this could affect whether I get bookings from other clubs. This would then impact on my earnings. Also, in these days of litigation, if someone injured themselves using a demonstrated technique it could cost me money.
As regards handouts, I used to do a handout but as Pete has already said sometimes you adapt your demo to the audience so the H/O is not pertinent. Also, after spending many hours producing a handout it is demoralising at the end of the evening to see them spread across the floor and yes it is time consuming and expensive when most clubs want cheap demonstrations and sometimes all they dowant is to be entertained.
As John has already said, if there is anything you need to know send an email, I for one do reply to the best of my ability.
What would be better is for the audience to get involved with the demonstration, ask questions and get the demonstrator to go over things again if you are not clear. It is not an easy thing to stand in front turning and wonder if there is anybody paying attention, especially when there is one or two people rudely talking when you are doing your bit.
The other thing is I am sure, like me, most demonstrators ask what you would like done,the reply should be more positive than "anything you like" because we can do most things but want to do what is of most use/interest.
Have to stop for now, thunderstorm.
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I think you should bear in mind the following -
The demonstrator probably won't have any control over what is recorded and as such, they are putting themselves at risk if the recording lacks vital details or warnings due to editing.
The demonstrator is only being paid for a "live" demonstration. I don't think it would be unreasonable for a demonstrator to request an additional fee for a recorded demo.
The copyright would reside with the club not the demonstrator so they would potentially lose revenue on future recordings
The video could be used in place of future demonstrations, reducing the potential earnings of demonstrators.
I don't think this is something for the AWGB to make a ruling on. It should be up to each individual club to set their own policy.
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hello Andy, I thought I would add my points as a professional turner/demonstrator.
I do not make or sell DVD's but I am still reluctant to a certain extent for people to film me,my reasons are this: Sometimes even professional turners make mistakes when demoing and I for one would not like to see my mistakes put on you tube as this could affect whether I get bookings from other clubs. This would then impact on my earnings. Also, in these days of litigation, if someone injured themselves using a demonstrated technique it could cost me money.
As regards handouts, I used to do a handout but as Pete has already said sometimes you adapt your demo to the audience so the H/O is not pertinent. Also, after spending many hours producing a handout it is demoralising at the end of the evening to see them spread across the floor and yes it is time consuming and expensive when most clubs want cheap demonstrations and sometimes all they dowant is to be entertained.
As John has already said, if there is anything you need to know send an email, I for one do reply to the best of my ability.
What would be better is for the audience to get involved with the demonstration, ask questions and get the demonstrator to go over things again if you are not clear. It is not an easy thing to stand in front turning and wonder if there is anybody paying attention, especially when there is one or two people rudely talking when you are doing your bit.
The other thing is I am sure, like me, most demonstrators ask what you would like done,the reply should be more positive than "anything you like" because we can do most things but want to do what is of most use/interest.
Have to stop for now, thunderstorm.
A signed form guaranteeing any recording would not be posted on social media site should cover any mistakes being made public knowledge.
I do not understand when you say you do not want to be sued if someone injures themselves copying any technique, do you state at the start of your demo's that what you are about to demo is not to be tried at home? are you not trying to teach club members when doing these demo's? if it is tried at home from memory I would have thought there is more chance of something going wrong than if you had something to look at to remind you how it was done.
The demonstrators I have seen come to the club with blanks prepared for certain jobs.
If there are rude members talking over your demo then I would expect the chairman to say something but you could always ask if they would not mind if you talked over their conversation, should shut them up!!!
Thanks for contributing to the thread, it is nice to hear the views from the other side of the fence.
Andy
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I think you should bear in mind the following -
The demonstrator probably won't have any control over what is recorded and as such, they are putting themselves at risk if the recording lacks vital details or warnings due to editing.
The demonstrator is only being paid for a "live" demonstration. I don't think it would be unreasonable for a demonstrator to request an additional fee for a recorded demo.
The copyright would reside with the club not the demonstrator so they would potentially lose revenue on future recordings
The video could be used in place of future demonstrations, reducing the potential earnings of demonstrators.
I don't think this is something for the AWGB to make a ruling on. It should be up to each individual club to set their own policy.
Paul, A club cannot make it's own policy when each demonstrator has differing ideas on the subject.
Should the demonstrator require an extra payment for being filmed then I think this is something which must be decided by the governing body then it can be rolled out country wide and the clubs will have to cough up for the privilege. I.E. Clubs may video demonstrators for the sole use if it's members to try and emulate the demonstrated article but the demonstrator will require an extra payment for any recording which is made.
I certainly cannot imagine any club sitting around watching a video of a previous demo, why should they want to do that?
Andy
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As a professional turner and demonstrator, I thought id add my bit.
A hand out would be quite possible to make, but it would need to basically be like a magazine article. Step by step instructions with photos. That's a lot of extra work for very little gain on the part of the demonstrator. If I was to do that I would want to do them professionally, which actually is quite expensive. I personally also write for the magazine so, much of what I demo and write about supports each other.
That said, I continually invite people to ask questions (do they ever? - Very rarely) I also allow people to photograph what I'm doing, either for their own use or for the club magazines. I don't even mind clubs videoing me, as long as it doesn't end up on the internet.
Without me actually going to each club members workshop and giving one to one, what more can I do? I hope you don't think I'm being rude, but if you struggle to remember what happens, you should take photos of each stage of the demo? I know you'd be welcome to at any of mine.
Richard
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Not to go off subject, I notice it mentioned wasn't a Demonstration in fact Teaching Members.
There was a thread which sadly went missing that raised the very question, when does a Demonstration become a Lesson and the Demonstrator a Teacher. As Demonstrator/Demonstration is it in the fact of only imparting small amounts of information to a large audience in a short time frame ... in solely to out line the use of a tool and a cut or the mounting and start of a piece and not finish, normally in that 'you can't see the hollowing' going on in the form .. this will take to long .. need I show you sanding .. to apply a finish.
A Demonstration then may not be shown in it's entirety to even warrant videoing, and I've been in a few Clubs where notes and pictures have been taken and these have gone into the News Letter, which often now are on the Club Website ... where does the Club stand then with Demonstrator X as it's then Public.
David
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I think you should bear in mind the following -
The demonstrator probably won't have any control over what is recorded and as such, they are putting themselves at risk if the recording lacks vital details or warnings due to editing.
The demonstrator is only being paid for a "live" demonstration. I don't think it would be unreasonable for a demonstrator to request an additional fee for a recorded demo.
The copyright would reside with the club not the demonstrator so they would potentially lose revenue on future recordings
The video could be used in place of future demonstrations, reducing the potential earnings of demonstrators.
I don't think this is something for the AWGB to make a ruling on. It should be up to each individual club to set their own policy.
Paul, A club cannot make it's own policy when each demonstrator has differing ideas on the subject.
Should the demonstrator require an extra payment for being filmed then I think this is something which must be decided by the governing body then it can be rolled out country wide and the clubs will have to cough up for the privilege. I.E. Clubs may video demonstrators for the sole use if it's members to try and emulate the demonstrated article but the demonstrator will require an extra payment for any recording which is made.
I certainly cannot imagine any club sitting around watching a video of a previous demo, why should they want to do that?
Andy
Andy, The club must make their own policy as they are the ones organising the event and hiring the demonstrator..
There is no "governing body" to decide or dictate how clubs should conduct their business.
The point I was making about the video is that the club could show it when they wanted, to whoever they wanted and could even potentially sell or hire out copies. None of which would financially benefit the demonstrator.
Personally, I don't think it's a good idea for all the reasons stated.
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On the other hand...... If the club could video the presentation and then hire it out to any club members or friends who missed it , that could put more money into the club kitty thus enabling them to hire demonstrators more often ?
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On the other hand...... If the club could video the presentation and then hire it out to any club members or friends who missed it , that could put more money into the club kitty thus enabling them to hire demonstrators more often ?
Graham, realistically the clubs would not take enough money on the hire of these to make a difference to club funds.
I would like to share something with you. I did a demo last night in north Devon so let's use that as an example. It took an hour to prepare the timber and another hour to ensure all the chisels were sharp and I had everything needed for the demo and half an hour to load the car. I need to prepare some food and a drink for the journey home as it will be quite late. A trip to Tesco's for fuel and I am on my way. So far I have worked for this demo for nearly 3 hours. The venue is 2 1/2 hours away and travelling time is not paid by the club. A stop near the venue for an evening meal, on this occasion a McDonald's was all I could find. The demo lasts from 7 -10 pm admittedly with a free cup of coffee and a biscuit halfway through. On completing my demo I always ask if there are any questions and then answer them and when there are no more questions the demo ends but I can guarantee that when I am packing up and trying to get on the road 2 or 3 people come up and ask questions. So anyway I pack the car, get on the road in the middle of town with no signposts so call in to a garage for directions and then finally get going on the way home. 2 1/2 hours later at nearly 1 0'clock in the morning I get home, it takes a few minutes to unload the car into the hallway, I will take it all down the workshop when I get up. By the time I get into bed I have done a 13 hour day and driven the best part of 250 miles. Apart from fuel costs the whole demo cost the club £80. If they want to video me doing the demo don't you think it is only fair that I get paid for appearing in it? Or should I work out my prices so that all of the hours that I put in for the demo are paid for? So let's say 12 hours (I don't expect to be paid for breaks) at £20 per hour. So that comes out at a more respectable £240 plus travel expenses ,and for that money you can video me.
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Hi John,
A very good point you make our Club has numerous DVDs that we hire out to members at 50p per month these are mostly all instructional and by
Professionals from around the world this probably brings in about £25 per year.
Also people think the demonstrator just arrives out of the blue most never think about the preparation time etc.I think Demonstrators on the whole do an
excellent job
Regards John
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John - I take your point about the videos but the pricing of demos etc is a whole other subject.
Please do not take this the wrong way, it is not meant as a criticism or put down but there are times when professional turners seem ( to me ) to be their own worst enemies.
The figures you quote for a demo are absurd. The hours involved are probably on the conservative side but even if realistic work out to about about £6.17 per hour, less than the minimum wage and they don't even take into account wear and tear on the car and all that sort of stuff.
Next...... Private tuition. Prices vary but on average seem to work out at about £110 - £125 for a whole days individual tuition. Many seem to do it for even less, do that 5 days a week and you are earning £25K a year. OK, some would be pleased to get that but as a self employed person..... Absurd.
Some turners ( not all ) get all up tight when they see amateurs selling stuff cheap at craft fairs etc. It undervalues our worth they moan...... With the prices you all charge you do that for yourselves. What other field would you get one on one tuition for those amounts.
You were recently at Yandles for 2 days, what did they pay you ? If they could afford to pay 10 turners for an open weekend I'll bet it wasn't much.
And before you all start on about pricing yourselves out of the market......I am getting on a bit now, I can remember the screams when bread hit 50p a loaf, 'Nobody will buy it' ..... and when the mini hit £500 the end of the financial world was predicted.
Up you prices to £240 for a demo, double the price of a days tuition. Sure people will moan, they might have to cough up as much to watch you as they would spend on beer. they will get over it and might even pay more attention if they are paying proper money for it.
I am now going to hide under the table, it is made of two inch thick oak :)
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There now, see, you have gone and got me started.
Talking of Yandles......
Old boy has a big workshop just inside the entrance. The bottom layer of sawdust on the floor must be pre ark it is so deep.
He is making high quality hand made windsor chairs. I would have been proud to have made the examples he was showing..... Apparently they were his rejects.
He was charging £350 isn for a custom made chair, enlarged to fit my fat backside, bigger wrap around arms and palm grips coz I like them that way. Solid ash, or oak, or elm and yew combo.
I ordered 2
Now I am feeling guilty. Mass produced ercol versions, brought site unseen from furniture village are dearer than that.
So you are not alone.
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Well said Graham. It is a problem common in craft industries. The question of which comes first - the chicken or the egg? Or which comes first - charging more or customers expecting to pay more?
One reason I have stopped doing tuition is that the usual price for teaching for a day is £120 to £150. I can make £200+ for my production work. Something of a no brainer!
The RPT are currently trying to encourage its members to charge more apropiate prices by introducing a code of conduct which all members must adhere to. Some of the points focus on pricing.
Great post Graham
Richard
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It is all well and good saying that I should be charging more but when you live where I do people are known for not paying money out. This is one of the reasons why I keep harping on about hobby turners not charging enough, if they charged more I would charge more and the members of the public (where I live ) would see the real cost of woodturning but until they do I can't. :)
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Unless all pro turners started charging higher rates increasing your cost would mean you don't get anything as few if any clubs would hire you. I charge pretty much the same as most demonstrators but was recently told by an experienced demonstrator 'Your costs are fine (a bit cheap if anything!)'
As far as charging for work you do it is not as easy as perhaps it seems. An hourly rate (providing everything goes as planned first time) cost of materials, wear and tear on equipment and tools and your prices are going to be higher than many people are likely to pay. If you source your own materials do you charge what it would have cost to buy from a wood merchant? How much hourly rate? The pro turners like Richard (Findley) who do a lot of restoration and replication can perhaps charge a sensible rate as what they do is recognised as worth a decent hourly rate and the little of that type of work I do is indeed profitable but if you are talking abut either utilitarian or artistic work it is a nightmare. I have virtually stopped doing your basic craft fairs as whilst I get a fair number of 'Oooh I like that' comments few are willing to pay for the pieces. I do what I do because I love it and if I can make enough to live on I am happy but unless I become famous and collectable I doubt very much whether I will ever earn what some consider decent money. One thing I have come to learn however doing the larger shows is that if you price things too cheaply people will assume it isn't worth much, putting prices up can actually encourage sales. Just make sure you also have a good supply of cheaper items as well. Perhaps the RPT or AWGB should do some course on salesmanship and marketing.
Pete
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Pete
Funny you should say that, but at the next craft meeting, there are plans afoot to have a speaker on the subject of use of electronic media to benefit your business and a focus on trying to support members more in their sales and marketing.
All the best
Richard
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i'll be there for that one.
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On the other hand...... If the club could video the presentation and then hire it out to any club members or friends who missed it , that could put more money into the club kitty thus enabling them to hire demonstrators more often ?
Graham, realistically the clubs would not take enough money on the hire of these to make a difference to club funds.
I would like to share something with you. I did a demo last night in north Devon so let's use that as an example. It took an hour to prepare the timber and another hour to ensure all the chisels were sharp and I had everything needed for the demo and half an hour to load the car. I need to prepare some food and a drink for the journey home as it will be quite late. A trip to Tesco's for fuel and I am on my way. So far I have worked for this demo for nearly 3 hours. The venue is 2 1/2 hours away and travelling time is not paid by the club. A stop near the venue for an evening meal, on this occasion a McDonald's was all I could find. The demo lasts from 7 -10 pm admittedly with a free cup of coffee and a biscuit halfway through. On completing my demo I always ask if there are any questions and then answer them and when there are no more questions the demo ends but I can guarantee that when I am packing up and trying to get on the road 2 or 3 people come up and ask questions. So anyway I pack the car, get on the road in the middle of town with no signposts so call in to a garage for directions and then finally get going on the way home. 2 1/2 hours later at nearly 1 0'clock in the morning I get home, it takes a few minutes to unload the car into the hallway, I will take it all down the workshop when I get up. By the time I get into bed I have done a 13 hour day and driven the best part of 250 miles. Apart from fuel costs the whole demo cost the club £80. If they want to video me doing the demo don't you think it is only fair that I get paid for appearing in it? Or should I work out my prices so that all of the hours that I put in for the demo are paid for? So let's say 12 hours (I don't expect to be paid for breaks) at £20 per hour. So that comes out at a more respectable £240 plus travel expenses ,and for that money you can video me.
Hi BHT.
I also think you are under pricing your club demo's, the smallest amount I have seen our club cough up is £60 and that is to a professional who is a hon. member of the club and lives only twenty minutes away, we have also paid out over two hundred :o
I was making the same mistake with my jewellery boxes, I kept on getting told of by a few people who knew better than me, a friend re-printed my labels and put them up at £220, I still sell the same amount and I am now being told to increase them even more.
Hiring out video's to club members will not bring in a lot of money I know but neither does charging 20p for a cup of coffee but we do and I must reiterate, any videos made by the club will be only done after a signed agreement that the demonstrator allows it and that it will not be sold, lent or otherwise used for any other purpose other than the private use of club members.
Andy
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Andy....Today at Mid Wales Woodturners' club meeting we had a demo from Joey Richardson. I wasn't able to stay for the whole day, but the morning session went extremely well. Joey didn't just work from the usual position up on the stage, but she also set up a workbench right down in front of the audience. She was very forthcoming with help and advice and has even written handout notes which can be accessed off the 'News' section of her website. Furthermore, and specialist equipment and sundries that she mentioned can also be found referred to on the website.
A really good compromise to what's being discussed in this thread.
Les
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As a professional turner and demonstrator, I thought id add my bit.
A hand out would be quite possible to make, but it would need to basically be like a magazine article. Step by step instructions with photos. That's a lot of extra work for very little gain on the part of the demonstrator. If I was to do that I would want to do them professionally, which actually is quite expensive. I personally also write for the magazine so, much of what I demo and write about supports each other.
That said, I continually invite people to ask questions (do they ever? - Very rarely) I also allow people to photograph what I'm doing, either for their own use or for the club magazines. I don't even mind clubs videoing me, as long as it doesn't end up on the internet.
Without me actually going to each club members workshop and giving one to one, what more can I do? I hope you don't think I'm being rude, but if you struggle to remember what happens, you should take photos of each stage of the demo? I know you'd be welcome to at any of mine.
Richard
Richard, you were at our club in August and as I said to some one else, we have some very good demonstrators, please include yourself in that category.
As far as a handout is concerned, I wouldn't expect anything as comprehensive as you say, something like that would be an instructional piece for something which has not been seen done in real life, the type of handout I am talking about would be just step by step 'reminder' of the process and it would only be given to those who wanted to attempt what you had shown and not given out to all and sundry.
Andy
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The RPT are currently trying to encourage its members to charge more apropiate prices by introducing a code of conduct which all members must adhere to. Some of the points focus on pricing.
Great post Graham
Richard
Richard, exactly what I am trying to suggest. "A code of conduct which all members must adhere to decided on by the RPT".
The governing body I previously mentioned. A level playing field where everyone knows the score, no grey areas.
Andy
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Andy....Today at Mid Wales Woodturners' club meeting we had a demo from Joey Richardson. I wasn't able to stay for the whole day, but the morning session went extremely well. Joey didn't just work from the usual position up on the stage, but she also set up a workbench right down in front of the audience. She was very forthcoming with help and advice and has even written handout notes which can be accessed off the 'News' section of her website. Furthermore, and specialist equipment and sundries that she mentioned can also be found referred to on the website.
A really good compromise to what's being discussed in this thread.
Les
Les, Did she read my suggestion ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Andy
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It comes down to perceived value. You get what you pay for and if a day course seems cheap you have to wonder what you are going to get.
I also understand the principle of selling the same number of items,or more, when putting the prices up.
As things have worked out I am, for now at least, somewhat better off as a retired old fart than I ever was when I was working and bringing up kids. If I am at a craft fair or whatever and looking at someones wood turnings ( since this is a turning forum) and they are selling them at cheap prices I would walk away, why would I want to fill my home with cheap <deleted expletive>.
Perceived value again.
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Pete
Funny you should say that, but at the next craft meeting, there are plans afoot to have a speaker on the subject of use of electronic media to benefit your business and a focus on trying to support members more in their sales and marketing.
All the best
Richard
Where can I find info regarding this please?
Pete
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Hi Les, It's a pitty you didn't stay for the afternoon session as this was all about the finishing, and airbrushing showing techniques and materials. She was at CrowValley on Saturday doing the
same Demo Day and I have to say that it was ONE of the best I have seen in my very short
time as a turner. I thought the interaction with us was superb, she was even prepared to use
her break period to let us have a go with her equipment and give us instruction on it's use.
Julian
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Interesting thread with many points raised but the key one for me is videoing of demos. My club automatically videos all demos -this is included in our booking arrangements. We only produce a DVD for our own and our twin club's library-with no posting on social media allowed.
If we have a demonstrator selling their own videos, we make no charge for allowing them to do this!!! Selling DVD's is now becoming an outdated form of marketing anyway.
The problem we have is that demonstrator costs are increasing and so are mileage costs-effectively some professional demonstrators price themselves out of the market.Most clubs only have a limited budget these days which means we tend to book the same names. This is a shame as clubs find it hard to progress and to entertain/educate their members. If we don't do this then member numbers decrease and so does our budget for demos. We have a handful of names we can book and know that we will get a good demo and a good attendance, so try to rotate these over a period of a couple of years.
New technology allows us to have demos from anywhere in the world beamed to our club from say, Australia, South Africa or USA, all at a fraction of the cost and no mileage! Perhaps those demonstrators on the circuit should bear this in mind when considering raising their prices?
David
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Hi David,
Interesting having demos from beamed from USA,Australia & Canada these cannot be "Live" can they? It would be interesting to know how this is achieved?
Regards John
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Hi John,
Yes of course they are, as the demo is done over Skype. How good it is depends on the camera operators at the demonstrators end and of course the wifi/internet link here.
We had a look at the demo done over the net and thought it was a good idea but in the UK, we're not sure we have anyone with the technology set-up to do this. Do feel free to prove me wrong anyone! Cheam is always happy to be a pioneer and we do have wifi in our venue.
Our treasurer loves the idea - no mileage costs.
David
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A while back I offered Skype on my website as a means of connecting with other turners but there were no takers. Seems a shame that no-one was interested to engage in a joint learning process. I am sometimes short on technical matters and could do with some help sometimes in problem solving. Some might benefit in return for help in creative matters. We all have strengths and weaknesses and could learn from one another. I can understand why others might not like to engage with me (given my internet reputation) but there are great opportunities in learning via the net for those with interests that may not necessarily be served in a club setting or a demonstration. Maybe a Skype Club could be an answer.
Philip
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Hi Les, It's a pitty you didn't stay for the afternoon session as this was all about the finishing, and airbrushing showing techniques and materials. She was at CrowValley on Saturday doing the same Demo Day and I have to say that it was ONE of the best I have seen in my very short time as a turner. I thought the interaction with us was superb, she was even prepared to use her break period to let us have a go with her equipment and give us instruction on it's use.
Julian
Julian...it certainly sounds as though I missed something special! I had a report from some of our club members to let me know what I missed and from what I saw in the morning, I agree wholeheartedly, Joey is an excellent presenter who takes trouble to interact positively with her audience....nothing was too much trouble (she even smiled at the rather aged gentleman in the very front row who took a phone call on his mobile, in loud-speaker mode, and chatted away as though he were on top of mountain with nobody to annoy).
Les
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New technology allows us to have demos from anywhere in the world beamed to our club from say, Australia, South Africa or USA, all at a fraction of the cost and no mileage! Perhaps those demonstrators on the circuit should bear this in mind when considering raising their prices?
David
sounds like blackmail to me, I will not be demonstrating at your club.
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Philip -as always, you're ahead of the game. Skype is a good way of bringing a wider range of demonstrations to the club, subject to getting the technological bits right. I'm not sure we are quite ready to proceed yet but it's good to know there's someone out there who is able and willing to participate in new ideas.
BHT - really! it was a comment to ensure that our professional colleagues are aware of the advances in technology and the benefits/challenges they bring to all of us,especially in the area of demonstrations and pricing. Woodturning and clubs do not stand still.
David
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Hi David,
Interesting having demos from beamed from USA,Australia & Canada these cannot be "Live" can they? It would be interesting to know how this is achieved?
Regards John
They must have their meetings in the middle of the night.
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Hi George,
Or even in the Middle of the day :o :o I could just imagine asking a club in say Australia to stop their Demo while we in UK want a coffee break
is this technology gone mad. ::)
Regards John
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is this technology gone mad. ::)
Regards John
Pretty much, but probably the way things will go. Its the 'global village' coming to get us.
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Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is desirable.
Pete
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A slightly different take on things. I encourage the "audience" to ask questions during the demo (a) so they don't forget to ask at the end, (b) because it is probably more pertinent at that point, (c) it sometimes reminds me of something I should have said and didn't.
Now in a club with about 30 -50 members watching the demo I could get 2 or 3 questions about one particular bit of the demo, ie. how to get a good fit on your lid. I sometimes have to explain this a number of different ways before everyone grasps the idea. Now you may say that I am not a very good teacher because of this or...a very good teacher to be able to explain the same thing many ways but that is irrelevant because the point is if the audience is bigger because there are multiple clubs "tuned in " but participating clubs still feel that it is more intimate because of the numbers at their venue does this mean that the demonstrator could expect many more questions about the same thing? If the audience were all in the same room you probably would not get the same number of questions because people get embarrassed to ask.
I also agree with Pete's comment that just because it is possible it isn't necessarily desirable.
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A while back I offered Skype on my website as a means of connecting with other turners but there were no takers. Seems a shame that no-one was interested to engage in a joint learning process. I am sometimes short on technical matters and could do with some help sometimes in problem solving. Some might benefit in return for help in creative matters. We all have strengths and weaknesses and could learn from one another. I can understand why others might not like to engage with me (given my internet reputation) but there are great opportunities in learning via the net for those with interests that may not necessarily be served in a club setting or a demonstration. Maybe a Skype Club could be an answer.
Philip
Something which the RPT could discuss, perfect and roll out to clubs.
Andy
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Has anyone who has expressed worries tried Skype? It would be an ideal method for follow ups for those offering courses. It is nigh on impossible to remember everything that has been taught over a full day. Skype would offer the opportunity for the learner to check out things not grasped fully on the day. That is of course if the teacher is prepared to offer this as an additional facility.
If anyone would like to see how it could work, get in touch. I have an HD webcam and am currently waiting for a headset to see how sound and vision might work out out in practice.
As far as an online club is concerned it might be better to do it informally. Again if anyone would be interested to try this out, get in touch. This might be especially useful for turners in remote locations who don't have a club facility in reasonable travelling distance.
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"Something which the RPT could discuss, perfect and roll out to clubs.
Andy"
Not just the RPT members but also all the independent turners.
Turner 1 doing demo for club is not a problem if they have the right kit (cameras, mike and broadband). Club may have an issue with laptop/projector and screen for viewing. The need for a roving mike has been pointed out - yes, that can be taken care of by using the small wireless mike usually placed on the demonstrator or as we would do, plug in the main mike to the PA.
Time zones can be an issue but with the USA -8 to -6 hours behind and Australia + 10 hours ahead of GMT, it does need a bit of planning. Took me a while to sort out a time to talk with my man in Sydney recently!
As for tea breaks, you can stop the call and call again.
Will be interesting to see which UK club is first with a skype demo - they have already been done in the US.
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Hi David,
How about you trying this out at your Club then you can give us the benefit of your knowledge I am afraid I am not much good on these modern Techno things.
Regards John ::)
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I can see that what Philip S is saying regards a "follow up" to training, but this then promotes the asking of the same question where all this started from,who pays? I hand out my contact details to those that want it after a demo, some do get in touch and ask pertinent questions about things I did in the demo and I am happy to discuss these popints: but what about the person that sees this as an opportunity to get free lessons? I charge expenses for demos on top of the fee so should we then charge per Skype call?
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John,
We have actually discussed this at our club and are in the process of assessing the broadband facility available to us at our venue. No connection, no Skype!
The key issue is finding another turner who a) is on skype and b) who is able to do such a demo for us.
In the meantime we have other issues to resolve but it is on our "to do" list.
David
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Hi David,
The best of luck in your task I look forward to hearing how you get on :)
Regards John
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Dave, I am on Skype, not sure if it would work in the workshop though. I am sure I could borrow the club camera so if you wanted to set up an experiment in the future let me know. I do foresee another problem though, each demo will require 2 people instead of just one, because as you are turning (demonstrating) it is unlikely that you would hear the shouts to focus the camera, turn the volume up or zoom in, you may also need someone to relay questions.
I don't think it would replace "live" demonstrations even though it was in real time and if there was bad weather the connection could be lost and you could end up with a hall full of turners waiting to see if the signal returns . This is no different however than if a demonstrator broke down on the way (this is my worst nightmare both as a demonstrator and as a club chairman).
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I can see that what Philip S is saying regards a "follow up" to training, but this then promotes the asking of the same question where all this started from,who pays? I hand out my contact details to those that want it after a demo, some do get in touch and ask pertinent questions about things I did in the demo and I am happy to discuss these popints: but what about the person that sees this as an opportunity to get free lessons? I charge expenses for demos on top of the fee so should we then charge per Skype call?
And why not? it's your time they are paying for.
These Skype demo's are like anything new, if there is a call for it then the issues will be ironed out but as far as I am concerned I don't see the need for relying on America or the USA for demonstrators over Skype, we have demonstrators / teachers over here who are not able to travel the length of the country so with this technology clubs would then have access to far flung demonstrators and vice versa, ideal media for a Saturday workshop.
Andy
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BHT, if you are going to try out Skype you will need to so some research on what it will and won't do. You need a high speed broadband connection to start with to be able to broadcast live with reasonable picture quality and speed of action combined with sync. sound. Also you may have real difficulty in using a conventional camcorder. Skype have dropped support for third party software. The camera, as far as I understand things needs to be attached via USB and the signal from a camcorder needs encoding.
I will be interested to see how things work out. There are other ways of achieving live broadcasts.
Philip.
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Andy,
You're right about getting a wider range of turners within the UK.
The guy we're after, lives some 220 miles north of our club so mileage would be around £175 on top of his fee, plus overnight stay. Total = expensive!!!! Either that or it is a 4 hours each way drive for the demonstrator.
If we could do the demo via Skype, Google or whatever, the demonstrator saves the travelling cost and time and we save the mileage fees. We get our man and the demonstrator gets a fee.
As Philip says, there may be logistical problems to overcome. We have had contact via LinkedIn from one of the guys at Minnesota Woodturners who recently had Trent Bosch give a demo via skype to them. Colorado (where Trent lives) to Minnesota is about 1000 miles each way and a 16 hour drive so imagine the mileage costs or even plane fare for that demo!
FIrst reports say the demo went well and without hitches but am waiting for more detailed info on the set-up at each end. I know that Trent had two cameras going in Colorado but that's all so far.
I'm happy to do a quick test on skype and am just waiting for one of the commentators on this thread to confirm skype contact details and we'll have a go.
David
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So apart from being a live transmission, what would the difference be between watching a Skype demo or a DVD? Taking on board Philip's comments about cameras etc. perhaps it would be easier to commission a DVD from your chosen demonstrator about your chosen subject.But this then would bring problems of its own, if a club pays for the DVD you may have a reduced attendance at your club meeting as members could rent a copy from the club, this could also be a positive outcome.
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Hi
How many clubs meet at village Halls etc.where there is a high speed broadband connection? then there is the expense of new cameras and everything
else that goes with this method.
Also the demonstrator would have to buy all this equipment and pay someone to operate the cameras etc.it seems to me this is pie in the sky. ::) ::)
Regards John
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Hi
How many clubs meet at village Halls etc.where there is a high speed broadband connection? then there is the expense of new cameras and everything else that goes with this method.
Also the demonstrator would have to buy all this equipment and pay someone to operate the cameras etc.it seems to me this is pie in the sky. ::) ::)
Regards John
I have been watching this thread with interest, as both a demonstrator and a club secretary.
Although I am a great supporter of technology, having provided camera systems for several clubs, use computers for all sorts of things, even Skype to 'talk' to my family, I think John has hit the nail on the head with both statements; on availability of broadband at both ends, club and demonstrator, and cost of the equipment and it's use.
My workshop is on a farm estate, with no hope of the level of broadband for even a basic Skype connection. And my travel expenses would just be replaced with the cost of the equipment and someone to use it whilst I was 'demonstrating'. I also think it would be difficult to engage with an audience remotely. I like all the audience to ask questions, and to reply to the individuals by talking to them 'face to face'. Would the setups being proposed have a camera at the 'audience end' so the demonstrator could respond properly? If so, how would this work if the demo was being watched by multiple clubs?
Nice idea, but I guess not really practical for the majority of us.
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Being a demonstrator is all about interaction IMHO. With FaceBook, Twitter etc we already seem to have lost a lot of that personal touch in our relationships and though there is no doubt a place for the type of thing being suggested (Skype etc) I do feel that if that were to become the norm a lot of people would feel out of touch and it would be no different to watching a video. The average age of the members of clubs is fairly high at the moment though hopefully that will change, and it can often be hard enough getting people to respond when doing a demonstration so I am doubtful that having 'distant' demos via electronic means would go down well in many clubs. If demonstrating were purely a matter of showing how something is made then maybe but how often do those of us who demonstrate get asked all sorts of peripheral questions from 'why do you grind your tools to that shape' to 'where do you get your wood.' Personally I have no problem with the idea of using other methods of demonstrating but as an alternative for a meeting, not as a substitute for the personal, man / woman up front
Pete
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I am giving a talk next year and will be preparing some new work to illustrate creative thinking and doing. So as an experiment I will be showing an occasional live feed from my website.
If anyone wishes to see how video might supplement a talk or demo then take an occasional peek to see work in progress. I am waiting for fibre broadband to be rolled out locally so initially it will be a lowish resolution feed. It will probably be a silent feed and interaction with the method I will be using won't be possible.
Details will be found on my Blog and Twitter where questions and comments can be posted.
Philip
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Before I retired I used to work for a large international company. We used video conferencing for a period to reduce travelling expenses etc and it seemed to be ok for a while. Then we gradually moved back to one to one meetings with the occasional video call. This was precisely because there is nothing like one to one contact. You can read a lot from a person's stance, mannerisms, gestures etc which you wouldn't necessarily see on a video link. The atmosphere at a one to one meeting is totally different. I have also attended a couple of video link seminars, and to me they don't really work. You can learn some things from DVDs etc but there is nothing like being there with the demonstrator. That's my pennies worth anyway. Malcolm.
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As usual I am out of sync with current thinking but I see any initiative that may help facilitate learning and the advancement of the craft to be an opportunity.
Skype or similar may not be suitable for some demonstrations, some demonstrators or some watching but if nobody gives it a try there is no knowledge base for what may work and what may not.
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I can sympathise with Malcy's views as my company, a large music licensing organisation, used video conferencing a lot even between its two sites in Central and South London. With the right kit and set-up, the facility was great and saved a bunch of us travelling up and down to town.
We all agree that one to one is the very best but as Philip says, the technology is now here and we should try it. It may not work for all but unless we try, we won't know!
Having said all this about technology, the Skype line to Beijing has just died on me!
David
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Breaking news! Line to Beijing now back up!
D.
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Hello Philip & David,
I am not one to halt progress but as a Club Secretary and Treasurer I think we have to be realistic about things firstly we should
consider the cost implications to clubs we are not a rich bunch and even reading both of your comments about the speed of Broadband required and the
expense of new equipment it would not be viable for I would say 99% of Clubs or Demonstrators you also mention about Skype going down what do we do if
that happens in the middle of a demo? as for one to one being the best "Yes it is" we had a demo last night at our club and the banter and questions was
great all part of the enjoyment of the evening.David you no doubt work for large company with an endless pot of money.
Call me a Nerd if you like as I said earlier Let us be Realistic. ???
Regards John
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Hello Philip & David,
I am not one to halt progress but as a Club Secretary and Treasurer I think we have to be realistic about things firstly we should
consider the cost implications to clubs we are not a rich bunch and even reading both of your comments about the speed of Broadband required and the
expense of new equipment it would not be viable for I would say 99% of Clubs or Demonstrators you also mention about Skype going down what do we do if
that happens in the middle of a demo? as for one to one being the best "Yes it is" we had a demo last night at our club and the banter and questions was
great all part of the enjoyment of the evening.David you no doubt work for large company with an endless pot of money.
Call me a Nerd if you like as I said earlier Let us be Realistic. ???
Regards John
John.
I know this has wandered off the original thoughts at the start of this thread but this is an interesting turn.
It seems most clubs have the same sort of set-up, a camera and a couple of screens for viewing so I would have thought you had most of the equipment needed in the club at the moment, a screen and someone with a laptop, if you meet in a village hall then I would have thought Wi fi would be available.
I live out in the country in Lincolnshire and my broadband speed is a thundering 2.8 mb/s at it's best (must be one of the slowest in the country) but I speak with a chum is Australia on a regular basis and that slow speed has no effect whatsoever, just the same as when I talk to friends in this country or Spain.
If the technology is there then why not try and exploit it? everybody else is, how many woodturning dvd's do people use to learn and how many times have folks watched video's on the net trying to learn something, just the same but live.
Andy
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Hi Andy,
Thank you for your reply I thought I read that you needed fast Broadband. Yes at our Club we do have cameras and a large TV as a screen Yes it will
be interesting to see if anyone has a try at this I will watch this thread with interest.
Regards John
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I can vouch that it's possible to work. My wife has made many video links with family home in Texas, best way to 'see' everybody, everything and keep up with current events.
We'd done that first in front a remote camera, then the built in notebook camera for sometime, now with the ipad it's all the better with being able to switch the camera from the screen, (we see us and who we're contacting) or to the back lens, it makes it easy to see what we're filming .. even myself turning, which the wife did, sent from the shop in the back of the garden, the modem has to be 50yds or more away at the front of the house, no down time/delay at all.
The other advantage with an ipad, with an adapter lead you can connect HDMI straight to a TV ... now that's scary seeing oneself on a larger screen.
For all the technology today ... the end will always be we'll want to see the best (if only as entertainment) and have personal interaction with any demonstration as long as we have the demonstrators, should they, or the club want to video the event, that's down to the individuals involved.
Cheers David
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John, I think I was describing the need for high speed broadband for high definition feeds. Currently I have no idea what the quality of picture would be from a projected low resolution image so this is the reason for trying things out.
Andy is right that most clubs have most of the equipment already. The speed of broadband is is not necessarily the deciding factor in success. The capability of the broadcasting and receiving computers to process the data is also something that needs to be considered. So having a go sorts out the possibilities and the potential problems.
Philip
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Here is what streaming looks like. I can talk to you if you wish but you will need to use the text chat.
http://ustre.am/1hWqs (http://ustre.am/1hWqs)
I'll be there later on say 8pm onwards for a while if you would like to take a look and ask any questions.
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Just logged on but Philip's away from the screen at the moment. I'll catch up with him later. Visuals look better than on Skype - first impressions anyway.
David
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On line now - picture looks good and sound is fine.
David
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Philip,
I've just been watching you (live) - tried to say thank you on the UStream site but it wanted me to sign up - Nah, not another site, I've too many passwords etc already. So Thank you indeed.
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I couldn't take part in the events last night as it was club night, but reading this through has raised another "issue" with me.
I agree that most clubs or halls will have or be able to get the facilities to receive some sort of live feed from somewhere in the world. I do echo John's concerns about the feed dying halfway through the demo, in a club that may not be a problem but if you have paying customers it will be a different situation, although that in itself may help speed up the process of upgrading all the infrastructure needed. But my concern would relate to club membership numbers, if this took off and was successful would this then sound the death toll of woodturning clubs? Why leave home to sit in draughty old village hall with a group of old men when you could sit and watch in the comfort of your own home? Conversely, for those that live too far from a club this could provide the incentive to get turning in the first place and therefore become an aid to preserving the craft.
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Thanks to those last night that took the time to look in. It was a trial run to see what the difficulties might be. It was not that satisfactory in that I am learning the limitations of Ustream but the picture quality and sound seemed to be okay. I have to tweak my camera set up to get the picture quality better and get to grips with the supplementary software that will extend the possibilities in a presentation.
Although it would seem from thie early experiment that things could work it would be for others to make use of it. I have an online reputation that would seem to preclude others wanting to engage so I for one see no value in taking things beyond the experiment stage.
This method does however suit my purpose which is to help those who may want to make contact one to one after seeing something I may be doing online in a work in progress session or to ask questions or have some support for creative endeavour.
The piece I was working on last night will be a continuing process for a few days. I am doing a course at the end of the month to learn some new paint techniques and for my learning I need something with multiple surface treatments to test the method.
I will be online again later today and probably this evening where I will be testing Skype with David.
I don't see this as a threat to anything just an opportunity to extend what may be available to entertain members on Club nights.
For those who wish to take a look the direct link to the Ustream Channel seems to offer a better resolution than the link on my website.
A distance learning course with written material combined with videos and live support might be an interesting thing to investigate.
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Just add my thoughts to those from Thursday's experiment. Streaming does work and the HD pictures were good. Sound is also good but the key limitation for me was not being able to talk directly to Philip. Instant messaging is fine in some circumstances but obviously not for this purpose.
Skype may provide a better inter-action but not sure about sound and picture - yet.
Thanks to Philip for setting this experiment up -it's the only way we can all learn about these things.
David
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Just seen BHT's response.
If the Skype idea works, then this has the potential to dramatically INCREASE membership numbers. Why sit at home when you can come to a drafty church hall and see international turners direct from their workshops to your club?
There are plenty of other sources where you can sit and watch a presenter without any interaction - see the reams of videos on YouTube, for example. The key idea to embracing new tech is to provide interaction, which is what all clubs thrive on with their demonstrators -well, at least some of them, others can't be bothered to raise their voice or speak to the audience (no names, no pack drill).
The concept is simple: we have a turner we would like to have at the club, he lives 250 miles away therefore mileage costs are excessive. Answer: use skype so demonstrator comes to us direct from his workshop. No mileage, same/possibly higher fee (depending on circumstances) Result: everyone happy.
I will be taking my laptop to our club this coming Wednesday to check the wifi connection so if you are on ustream or on skype, you may get a call from me sometime after 8pm!
David
PS if BHT gets Skype up on his computer, happy to have a conversation with him from my workshop
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thanks for that Dave,
I'm having trouble with Skype at the moment which highlights another problem with this system which no technology in the world can fix.................I appear to have forgotten my password!! :-[ :-[ :-[
Carrying on from what Dave has said I dothink this may be the way ahead especially for those that live a long way away. I must admit that I would quite like to go down the workshop and give a live demo rather than drive for 3 1/2 hours like I did the other night just to earn £80. Another plus for this is the demos could then be a bit longer as there would be no "set up" time. I remember forgetting my chuck key on one occasion and had to rethink the demo as I went along, this would not happen if I was in my own workshop.
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BHT, if you go to open Skype you will see just below the login a link where you can reset the password.
David, I was around last night but couldn't see you online so tried a Skype link between my two accounts, the picture quality was good. The type of webcam seems to be the key for good quality. I used two independent webcams i.e. not integrated ones. The HD version gave good quality an older one poorer.
I was thinking about your observation on using two cameras to stream, not possible as far as I can see in Skype but might be possible using two Skype accounts each end. This would require some kind of dual input switching box gizmo between the computers and the projector so that you could alternate smoothly between streams.
Another problem I found with Skype is the broadcaster has a small image so it is difficult to see precisely what is being seen the receiving end. I got round this by using my netbook close to my workspace and my second Skype account to view and see clearly what was being broadcast.
I have now received my Bluetooth headset from China but am yet to discover if it will work.
If you want try to link on Wednesday let me know.
Philip
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Thanks to those last night that took the time to look in. It was a trial run to see what the difficulties might be. It was not that satisfactory in that I am learning the limitations of Ustream but the picture quality and sound seemed to be okay. I have to tweak my camera set up to get the picture quality better and get to grips with the supplementary software that will extend the possibilities in a presentation.
Although it would seem from thie early experiment that things could work it would be for others to make use of it. I have an online reputation that would seem to preclude others wanting to engage so I for one see no value in taking things beyond the experiment stage.
This method does however suit my purpose which is to help those who may want to make contact one to one after seeing something I may be doing online in a work in progress session or to ask questions or have some support for creative endeavour.
The piece I was working on last night will be a continuing process for a few days. I am doing a course at the end of the month to learn some new paint techniques and for my learning I need something with multiple surface treatments to test the method.
I will be online again later today and probably this evening where I will be testing Skype with David.
I don't see this as a threat to anything just an opportunity to extend what may be available to entertain members on Club nights.
For those who wish to take a look the direct link to the Ustream Channel seems to offer a better resolution than the link on my website.
A distance learning course with written material combined with videos and live support might be an interesting thing to investigate.
;D ;D ;D ;D Fantastic to see things being tried out, as I said before, the technology is there so why not use it? I am not a gadget freak and still have an old 'mobile phone' which only ever gets used when I go out and want to phone 'er indoors.
I do not think these type of things will ever take over from demonstrators visiting clubs, but it will or at least could extend the things a club will be able to present to it's members, it does not necessarily have to be turners from abroad but it could allow clubs access to British turners who live at the other end of the country and it will not be the same as watching a video.
Andy
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Just had a very interesting chat over Skype with BHT. Good video and clear sound despite the couple of hundred miles between us.
David
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Just had a very interesting chat over Skype with BHT. Good video and clear sound despite the couple of hundred miles between us.
David
So David, after speaking on Skype,do you think it has the potential to be used by clubs to extend the range of their demonstrators?
Andy
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This looks like a great idea.
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Andy,
I'm a firm believer in Skype and use it for all international calls so am a bit biased!
I think that any voice over internet protocol is good and can be used for demos but the key issue is ensuring there is a good wi-fi link between the parties. Our venue does have wi-fi but it is security protected so I cannot complete the test I would like to carry out. If I can crack the code then I;ll Skype from the hall and see what quality I get. My laptop can plug into our projection system so we would have full screen.
If that works, the next stage would be to find out a demonstrator who has the set-up at the other end to do a trial run. That is an easier task, as I know someone who would do this for us.
One other thought that's just occurred to me: you can have group conversations on Skype so in theory, you could have more than one club linked into the call/demo.
You've probably also logged in to Philip's stream from his workshop so we now have a couple of possibilities to consider.
Do feel free to continue the discussion over Skype - use World Domination Music as contact.
David
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Yes now that I have finally managed to get back on Skype.....we just turned it all off and turned it back on again! but according to my expert it is knowing when to do that that counts :-X so I had a Skype contact with Dave. The picture was quite good and there was nothing wrong with the sound. I still think that if it is going to work you will need 2 people at the demonstrator's end so that one can relay questions or move the camera as needed. I also think that a camera should be provided at the other end so that when asked a question you can see who you are talking to. I do not wish to be negative but I have just thought of something that could not happen using this system, you would not be able to pass a piece around the audience as I and other demonstrators do but this may be overcome by proper planning and the post office. Does anyone know the working distance of wifi?
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We did a lot of Live Steam stuff in Uni and always had issues one way or another and even more when you start adding more than one live feed.
Just to add I was in Uni studying Computer Games Design/Computer Science along side Computer Programmers and if we had problems trust me on this you will too.
The simpler the better 1 Live Feed from a single location users log in from outside the range.
Things that might slow down the connection and cause problems are other people connected to the network via WiFi like Smart Phones, Laptops, iPads, Other Computers on the Server, The laptop sending the feed and the laptop you will need to test the feed on site.
I think it is a real great idea though and would love to see it happen.
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There are lots of factors that will affect the quality of the feed. Some of which you can improve if you are able to control the configuration at each end but some will be out of your control.
Commercial voice over IP is usually set up with reserved bandwidth and quality of service constraints so other network traffic doesn't affect the call quality. You won't have that level of control so it's inevitable that at times the video and sound is likely to break up.
John, the range of wifi will depend to a great extent on what is between the router and PC. Clear line of sight will probably give you up to 100feet. Put a couple of walls in the way and it's down to 10!
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You could always get one of these or something similar if you have a shed/workshop set up that is at the end of your Hub/Router WiFi range.
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/1070754.htm
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I can agree with what has been said above. I have been experimenting with live broadcasts and have found, by trial and error, many of the problems encountered. Most seem to be around upload and download speeds on broadband. I am happy to have found out today that fibre broadband is now available to me and I am about to sign up. This will partly resolve my upload capacity/speed but until I can upgrade my computer not all the issues will be solved. However, this will not resolve the viewing experience of others who do not have the same facilities.
I have solved the problem of wifi in my workshop which is some distance from my house and does not engage with my router. Adapters are readily available.
I have also invested in software and equipment to improve my video making options. As I do not get asked to demonstrate to clubs, broadcasting and videos seem to be the way forward for me and those who might like to engage with me independently.
I am currently working on a shortish video that will illustrate various options for texturing with power tools, this will be on my website soon. No new techniques really just showing what various bits of gear might offer to those with creative inclinations. Anyone who might like to follow up on any of the techniques or tools and equipment shown can of course contact me privately or ask pro woodturners and forum members for help and advice here.
I will be producing videos on other subjects too.
Philip
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Philip,
I'm looking forward to your broadcasts and videos. Please be sure to let us know (via this forum) of date/time and new releases.
Thanks Bryan
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Philip,
I'm looking forward to your broadcasts and videos. Please be sure to let us know (via this forum) of date/time and new releases.
Thanks Bryan
^^ What he said
Ryan.
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Thanks Bryan and Ryan for your interest I will let you know when things are ready.
I won't be getting high speed broadband until the 14th, there is a wait for the engineer to flick the switch in the cabinet. I will however be working on the video which will take a while to produce. It will be a collage power tools including the Foredom Micromotor, flexishaft handpieces, NSK Presto, pyro branding, power carving, routing and a range of burrs, cutters and other stuff. No explanations just some basic visual examples of how they might be used to produce textures.
Philip
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Sounds great I'm interested in Pyro stuff and have been thinking about making my own Fire Brand for a few years now, It will be nice to see how you apply it to wood work.