AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Les Symonds on July 04, 2014, 01:13:30 PM
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If there's one thing that I've learnt from the etiquette on this forum, it's to always look for the good in other people's work. So, I've just spotted this on eBay.....
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/lessymonds/ItsabowlaMedium_zpsd6143ada.png) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/lessymonds/media/ItsabowlaMedium_zpsd6143ada.png.html)
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a238/lessymonds/ItsabowlbMedium_zpsf9ffc69d.png) (http://s12.photobucket.com/user/lessymonds/media/ItsabowlbMedium_zpsf9ffc69d.png.html)
....and I thought to myself, 'What can I say that is good about this?'. Well, the description says that it is unique, a one off....that's good ;)
Les
p.s. .... it's not one of mine!
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You're a gentle soul Les. I will remain silent.
Pete
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This is why the public have such a dim view of woodturning.
Regards George
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I like the Felt :D I might get some ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ed
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Many moons ago, when I learned to turn in school, we used to make bowls using a face plate then cover the bottom with felt to hide the holes. It was standard practice then. Mind you we were also using ground down files and glue we had to melt in a pot.
Pete
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It's round. What more do you want ? :)
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I think Green felt would have looked better!
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I think Green felt would have looked better!
True, Bryan....and preferably a one-metre square piece, wrapped all around it with lots of sticky tape and string.
;D Les
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Pete
I've still got a bowl I made at the london college of furniture when I served my apprenticeship 1976, laminated wood glued together with hot pot glue and a nice piece of red felt on the base.
Ed
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Pete
I've still got a bowl I made at the london college of furniture when I served my apprenticeship 1976, laminated wood glued together with hot pot glue and a nice piece of red felt on the base.
Ed
It's of-its-time, Ed.....and such fine scissor work! ;)
Les
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In all honesty the bowl looks to have had a hard working life .. my felts worn too with age... ;D ..
Cheers for the post, Les.
Dewi
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Red felt ? Sounds more like the 60s. groovy man !!
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been on holiday for a coupla weeks,had to visit antique/craft/gift shops.....you all know the drill. ;D but in one shop there was a bowl with felt on the bottom so I mentioned to my eldest who was with me that this is what we used to do years ago etc. etc. Only to feel through the felt the incriminating evidence of a modern day chuck mark!!! :o :o :o So someone has found a way of selling their work stick felt on and call it an antique!! :D :D :D :D
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Only to feel through the felt the incriminating evidence of a modern day chuck mark!
....so true....a further journey into eBay revealed a fairly basic candlestick, of the Osolnik pattern. The seller described it as having a hole in the underside , thus proving that it was made on a lathe. So perhaps, in the mind of Joe Public, we should all leave the screw-holes in and revert to sticky-backed-felt. ;)
Les
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............... and I thought you were such a polite bunch of artists :o
Haggy
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............... and I thought you were such a polite bunch of artists :o
Haggy
The sad thing is the way threads like this reflect on the AWGB as the owners of this forum when read as it is by so many of it's wider audience, even though the opinions aren't that of the AWGB.
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How do you know what is the opinion of the AWGB.?
It because so called turners are selling junk like this that the buying public have little respect for woodtuniong in this country.
While there are so called turners trying to pass of this standard of work as representative of woodturning in this country it will never have the respect of other crafts like Glass ,Pottery or Ceramics
Regards George
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How do you know what is the opinion of the AWGB.?
I didn't say I did!
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It because so called turners are selling junk like this that the buying public have little respect for woodtuniong in this country.
While there are so called turners trying to pass of this standard of work as representative of woodturning in this country it will never have the respect of other crafts like Glass ,Pottery or Ceramics
Have you never seen poorly made & designed glass or ceramic ware? There's plenty about.
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Does that make it OK then I don't think so. Regards George
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I can see Doug's pint, but consider this.....if the person who had made the bowl that I started the discussion with, had put it into the gallery of this forum and asked for constructive criticism, then I would have been more than happy to give it and I would have kept it positive. However, this person is masquerading as a craftsman, making all manner of claims for his/her work. He/she even calls it a 'bespoke' piece, which it obviously isn't, as it's offered for sale in an open auction. the description is littered with superlatives aimed at making prospective buyers believe that this is a work of art. the maker is a charlatan and is worthy of far worse criticism than I aimed at him/her.
Les
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Does that make it OK then I don't think so. Regards George
No it does not, what it shows is the assertion that poor quality items of a craft form are not detrimental to that of high quality items of the same craft,If glass & ceramic can flourish so can wood.
There are plenty of examples of poorly designed & made wooden furniture, this doesn't stop top end furniture selling for any less, if anything it makes such quality furniture more desirable & so more expensive.
It's up to us as turners to make the best possible wares & in doing so raise the profile of woodturning whilst making poor quality work look even poorer. The general public on the whole aren't stupid & know quality when they see it.
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I agree with that entirely Doug.
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I can see Doug's pint, but consider this.....if the person who had made the bowl that I started the discussion with, had put it into the gallery of this forum and asked for constructive criticism, then I would have been more than happy to give it and I would have kept it positive. However, this person is masquerading as a craftsman, making all manner of claims for his/her work. He/she even calls it a 'bespoke' piece, which it obviously isn't, as it's offered for sale in an open auction. the description is littered with superlatives aimed at making prospective buyers believe that this is a work of art. the maker is a charlatan and is worthy of far worse criticism than I aimed at him/her.
Les
Les, he is merely selling his bowl on an auction site,quite obviously he is going to use words to try & make his piece sound good, it's just advertising, do you ever believe adverts?
I've just looked & he still has no bids which tells me his word play isn't working, his Shabbychic- vintage username did make me smile though.
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Worth noting also that he has a 100% positive feedback on over 2000 sales, though they may not be turning related :)
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The general public on the whole aren't stupid & know quality when they see it.
I'm not so sure, Doug. I think I'd accept that the discerning public know quality when they see it, but I think that it is a sad reflection on society, nowadays, that poor quality, cheap goods sell well. You've only got to look at retail businesses like Poundland - they have just opened scores of new shops and employed hundreds on hew staff, and are heralded as one of the great successes of the retail world. I think that there is a massive section of society who might know quality, but who are prepared to believe that the throw-away goods that they buy are the quality that they want.
Les
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. I think that there is a massive section of society who might know quality, but who are prepared to believe that the throw-away goods that they buy are the quality that they want.
Agreed & sometimes they are, I buy quite a bit of gear from my local pound land & other discount stores for use on the allotment, I know full well it's cheap poor quality, but I weigh that up with the facts that when the local scrotes come calling they aren't going to bother with my gear & even if they do it's all cheap to replace.
As with most things it's horses for courses, if someone buys an ornament they know they will discard in 12 months time chances are they will buy cheap, others will pay good money for a beautiful pice of art, either way there is a market for both.......which you decide to turn for is up to you.
As for Mr Shabbychic it would appear from his other items he is a bit of a Del Boy selling anything & everything, I wonder what the chances are that he actually turned the bowl he waxed so lyrical about.
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Don't you people have anything better to do than pulling apart the work of someone who hasn't requested your critique and has no opportunity to respond? Ask yourself how you would feel if one of the first few things you ever made was subjected to this sort of treatment.
One of the aims of the AWGB is to promote woodturning. I'm pretty sure none of the aims include ridiculing other people's efforts.
I'm assuming the copyright owner was asked for permission to use the photos before they were posted on here?
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"I buy quite a bit of gear from my local pound land & other discount stores"
Sorry Doug, if it doesn't come in a Harrods bag or from Fortnum and Mason I don't buy it!! ;)
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We have similar discussions when we mark children's work at school and sometimes you have to laugh to keep your sanity!
On the flip side the kids really believe their work to be good and so do their parents, even though to the educated eye there is a lot of room for improvement.
I think there has been a lot of time and effort put into this piece for sale and as a result can understand why the seller is asking for £20-00.
What the seller doesn't realise is that he/she still has a very long way to go to match the standards of you people and would probably feel like giving up altogether if they saw some of the work that was exhibited at the Loughborough seminar or this gallery. I don't think it brings woodturning into disrepute, it just makes your work look awesome -the public are discerning.
Haggy
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I totally agree with Paul Hannaby. I was not able to see the ebay page with the item but is seems obvious that the person who is selling the item is a seller and not a turner. He/she shows the item with many pictures and asks for a price. He/she is not asking an outrageous price. The buyer has all the opportunity to ask questions and compare and decide. Nothing wrong with this.
I do not pretend to be an "artist" but just a guy who likes woodworking and in particular turning, and try to sell some of his pieces at reasonable prices. Nothing wrong with this, I believe. I asked your opinion on few of the pieces I make and I thank everybody that gave me his criticism, it helped me to improve or, at least it gave me an idea of what other people think of my work.
To be honest I also believe that a lot of turnings and composition turnings that are praised as art in various forums are, in my opinion, just junk, but there are also lot of turnings that are fantastic. So to everybody his own opinion and taste.
Finally, to go back to the ebay bowl, I think that it are more outrageous the 120 mil dollars paid in a Sotheby' auction of a Munch The Scream, an overestimated painting and artist, that the 20 pounds the guy is trying to get for that bowl.
PS: I like the painting but certainly I think that if it is worth 120 mil a Modigliani should be worth at least ten times that.
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In my opinion,if someone wants to make and sell something it,s entirely up to them, wether it is wood, china, clay or whatever medium is used.
If it's c##p it does'nt sell, there is a lot of helpful turners on the different websites I go on, but there seems a lot of eliteism by others as well,
for most of us it's just a hobby we enjoy.
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I can't believe the way some of the professional woodturners on this forum feel so threatened by someone selling a £20 bowl. Go to craft markets around the world and you will see people selling cheap poor quality paintings, ceramics, pottery, etc. Not everyone appreciates or can afford quality and no amount of complaining about what people sell and for how much will change this.
I know it's how you guys earn your living but it's only wood turning.
Cheers Frank.
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I can't believe the way some of the professional woodturners on this forum feel so threatened by someone selling a £20 bowl. Go to craft markets around the world and you will see people selling cheap poor quality paintings, ceramics, pottery, etc. Not everyone appreciates or can afford quality and no amount of complaining about what people sell and for how much will change this.
I know it's how you guys earn your living but it's only wood turning.
Cheers Frank.
Apart from a flippant comment I have not got into this debate but after reading Frank's words I thought I would. I do not know if the bowl in question was made by the seller or not,IMHO it would be better if he had not made it as this would then demonstrate that woodturning has a re-sell price, which is quite attractive. The professional turners do not feel threatened by the sale of a 20 quid bowl, some of my own bowls go for 20 quid.
What we are trying to do is raise the standard of turnings that are being sold and therefore raise the value perceived or actual value thereby enhancing the price we can ask. This is not just to benefit professional turners but woodturning as a whole.
Frank you said that not everyone can afford quality or appreciates it, to some extent I agree, not all of us in life can afford the best things available but I do feel that more people appreciate a quality piece than we realise.(Have you ever sat in a quality Chesterfield settee?)
I believe there has been a change in people's attitude regarding embarrassment levels, when you first start turning the things you produce are the best in the world in your eyes and your wife's and probably your Mum's aswell but a few years down the line you cringe at the thought of someone seeing your early work as now you have improved and moved on to a higher standard(quality) of finished work. The difference between then and now is during my early years of turning I never had the nerve to think that the stuff I was making was any good and I certainly would not have considered selling it, these days the new turner will sell their very first bowl as if it is a masterpiece and I know that design is in the eye of the maker but some of the designs really are complete rubbish. Paul you say the chap did not request a critique of his work (we are not really sure it is his work)but by putting it in the public eye a comment(critique) of some level should be expected.
Do discussions like this help to promote woodturning? yes I think it does, I think those looking in from outside of the AWGB aswell as members can see that we are capable of discussing good and bad points of all aspects of turning, the fact that woodturning has been mentioned in the same sentence as Sotheby's,Modigliani and The Scream should demonstrate how far the craft has come in the last few years probably thanks to turners everywhere getting hot under the collar about various comments.
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I could not have put it better myself John.
Regards George
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I could not have put it better myself John.
Regards George
Nor I.....I have been holding back for a few hours to see where this was going and am delighted that we've forced a debate, if nothing else.
There never was an intention to offer a critique about the piece in question, but as John (BHT) says, the chap who is selling this has put it into the public eye and must surely expect some reaction. Looking further into his list of lots for sale, he clearly is an opportunist, and good luck to him.
Debate is a good thing, and this thread has opened a debate!
Les
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I've also been sitting back on this one and watching where it's going. I did peek and the bowl in question had had no offers or bids on it when I looked, I doubt it's changed since then.
I would not offer a critique on an item unasked, and I also do not get terribly upset at the work standard of some items being offered for sale at times. This subject has been covered many time in this and I am quite sure many other forums.
Yes I can understand that some people would not sell anything they did not consider 100% the best they could make, while others, especially those early in their turning development need an outlet for their produce, if only to fund their further development by allowing them to purchase more timber, tools or even a major piece of machinery (for many years I did not own a bandsaw, using a bowsaw to produce my blanks).
But I would say in defence of any beginner their 100% is not the same of ours, as my 100% is not to the same standard as some other contributors to this forum.
So I'll ask at what point do we stand and look at an item and decide it worthy of a critique?
I’ve stood in many shops and looked at wooden bowls, hewn from a log by hand adze and you can see the marks still, is it wrong?, it's a method used still today in some parts of the worlds and aesthetically pleasing to some people. Eric’s ‘Craters’ shows carving marks on it, nothing wrong with that for any of us.
When do we look at the mass produced £12.99 rubberwood (other timbers available) salad bowls on the shelf in Tesco’s and other supermarkets and think ‘I could not buy the blank for that.’ Would we even consider critiquing one, even to ourselves.
Les posted some pictures recently of things he’d seen that gave him inspiration, others of us have done similar. I’m sure in a similar vein we look at flower vases, pottery, glass etc., but do we always see the form? The elegance or otherwise that has been designed into it by the artist (for one off’s) or the mould for mass produced items. Do we look to see if it has pleasing proportions (rule of thirds), if there are any badly placed changes in angular or curvature direction, all the things we talk about here. I have a small but growing collection of glass and pottery which has ‘something’ about it. Not always possible to reproduce in wood but which can act as a source of further inspiration.
I’ve sometimes said about a piece put up for critique that it has a discountenance, that there is something that pull’s against the eye, sometimes it’s wrong and uncomfortable to the (my) eye, other times it’s that part that makes the whole thing work for me.
What is pleasing to one persons eye may not be to another’s (as painting have previously been mentioned I’ll add that I hate ‘the Scream’, and consider most painting as nothing more than ‘Splodge on Canvas’).
Can you sell a crack?, Pete seems to do so very well looking at some of his galleried work, yes it has the form working for it which a beginner may not have, but would a beginner have the courage to try turn let alone sell such a piece of timber.
To someone the bowl that started this thread will be ‘just what they are looking for’, it will suit their need or décor and they will be pleased to purchase it…,
… however, if it had a name on it like Tracy Emin (who probably can’t turn that well) there would be people queuing up around the block to buy it at an awful lot more money!
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Bryan wrote "So I'll ask at what point do we stand and look at an item and decide it worthy of a critique? "
Personally I think every item no matter how good or bad is worthy of a critique, said critique should really be given to the person who made it and you should bear in mind that we all see things differently. To be fair to the person that made the bowl in question we should have a correctly done critique similar to what we would have had if one of us had made it.
Critiquing has to be done very carefully, I like to think of myself as an emerging wood artist (that make be a bit presumptuous I know)now imagine a known turner or artist critiquing my work but not doing it very well the result of that could spell the end of my career. A critique is not an opportunity to slag off another person's work but should be done constructively if however you think the work is rubbish I for one would prefer to be told
but I would prefer to be told privately, if you really love the work I would prefer to be told publicly but told I should be so that I do not carry on making the same mistakes.
I actually like the painting "the scream"it does "scream" out to me and I think it is an inspired piece of work but if it was critiqued I wonder what the result would be?
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I suppose the phrase beauty is in the eye of the beholder can apply to anything. If I had Tracy Emins bed I would feel embarrassed for anyone to see, certainly wouldn't pay the six figure sum it went for. If a new turner produced something like the original bowl under discussion how many of us would say 'That's wonderful' and leave it at that and how many of us would offer some constructive criticism? Someone earlier mentioned elitism and no doubt there is an element of that but (don't ask me to define it) I believe that there is a difference between something that is simply not to our taste and something that is badly done. I am one of those that doesn't like The Scream but I'd love t be able to paint like that. I don't like some of the work of a few of the renowned turners but I can't fault their skill or the quality of their workmanship. Perhaps the point originally made is that the bowl in question is not what many of us would class as either quality turning or particularly well designed and yet is seen by many on EBay thus giving an impression that that is what turning is all about?
Pete
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Hmn,my view is,people go on EBAy for cheap bargains,like the people who use pound shops,its what they can afford,when they get better off they look on higher quality sites for more expensive things they can afford with their new found wealth,its a cheap and cheerful bowl presumably made the old fashioned way on a faceplate with a felt bottom,probably by a beginner looking to sell their wares so as to afford more wood/tools and the seller here is probably a middleman for this or maybe not,but it seems he/her is making a living at it,so good luck to them if they can sell it(Iwouldn`t personally buy it though),as to bringing down standards,as others have said we all have to start from somewhere and improve as we go along(hopefully).
The remarks about carving marks showing on my piece called Craters is wrong though,it was finished to 600 grit,to get rid of all carving marks,then stippled with a 3mm burr.
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Eric,
that was me, sorry I did not know your method of producing texture, only that it was visible on the piece, and it most certainly was not a critisism mearly a means of comparrison.
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Well for all the excitement it never sold ... as before it has been re-listed at same price .. should be titled one off, as the bowl is the only piece of everything you are selling ... maybe you're finding no market for new wood bowls .. well looking like that .. should it keep going round, it's likely to find a buyer.
Also 100yrs+ Pitch Pine Planks.
Cheers David
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I cant see what everyone is so wound up about, the seller is clearly a beginner and hopefully s/he has learned something from the lack of response to the bowl.
I suspect the turner has not heard of either the AWGB or one of the woodworking mags with a turning section.
If that was a first attempt then maybe it was not so bad. Not worth £20 perhaps, but then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Ron