AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mark Sanger on September 14, 2013, 11:08:35 AM
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In several other threads and topics over the ages the subject of design and inspiration has been raised.
The questions of 'how do you come to your designs' or 'where do you get inspiration from' is often raised. Design and inspiration, how it is translated into the solid is a subject that requires as much time to learn as any other.
When I started turning it was one of the points I felt was missing from many woodturning magazines and books and still do today. Yes it is a subject that is starting to be covered more and more but is still pretty much lacking.
Often articles, I include mine in these, shows 'how to make' and spend less space on 'how, why, where and when' the ideas and designs originated from and even less on how to transpose these into reality.
So I thought instead of just discussing this, it would be far better to have a proactive thread based on this, to discuss and show how we and other work. What questions we have about creativity, inspiration and design, and to build a reference for people to investigate for themselves to build upon their own needs within this subject.
It has been my intention for some time to have blog entries on how I take visual stimulus that I see around me and how I transfer this into reality. But I have not had the time.
This indeed is not unique to the turners that do it. In fact observation and how this is translated is a skill taught in art and sculpture and has been for hundreds of years.
People may not be interested in this but some may. Everything I have learnt in relation to creativity has come from other sources and not invented by me. It is like any subject one that needs time to research practice and learn. Often people want to keep these secrets to themselves which is a shame, as once we learn to open the key to creativity we have more designs and ideas than we could make in a hundred lifetimes.
here are some books that I have read over time that may be of interest to you.
Feel free to input your thoughts and ideas.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Inspiration-Ceramics-Applied-Arts/dp/0713670983/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379153223&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sources-Inspiration-Ceramics-Applied-Arts/dp/0713670983/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379153223&sr=1-1)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Pattern-Colour-Form-Creative-Approaches/dp/0713678097/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1379153223&sr=1-2
While the craft is different the processes of using nature as a source of inspiration and how these translate for the makers in this instance is the same.
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Must admit I feel the same Mark and to some extent it is your fault LOL as well as having a partner who has been designing top end furniture and interiors for thirty years. Ceramics, various different styles in furniture, interior design etc as well as simply working along with what nature does to things all provide inspiration. A good example is that when I am asked t make something I research the different styles of say goblets, what shapes and so forth they have had over the ages and in different cultures. It always amazes me how many variations on a theme there are. I feel that those of us who demonstrate should perhaps focus more on the area of design explaining why one shape works and another doesn't.
Pete
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Mark, thank you for starting this thread, I look forward to it's development. I have started trying to think differently about design than I usually do. This may not be an inspirational way of doing it but what I have done recently is this........ I normally turn a pot or box or something and then add the finial or knob afterwards so that it looks like it is meant to be(you know what I mean). So just recently I have been turning the finial first and then making the box to suit.This has allowed me to experiment with finial shape, which I suppose could be termed design(?) and once I have a finial that is different from the(my) norm I then turn a box to suit it. I posted in the gallery (page 12) a Pau Amarillo pot. This was made to experiment with a new burning tip but the pot was made first and the finial followed, but you can see why the finial was that shape. This is what got me into trying things ass about face as I was happy with the final design of the pot and my own thought process leading up to the finished article but I wanted to maintain the momentum and that was the way I came up with it.
I remember sitting outside of the Jolly Friar pub in London after a meeting, a fellow turner found it amusing that he trained as an artist and wanted to be a turner when all the turners he knew wanted to be artists!
Thanks for starting this thread Mark, I for one will enjoy it.
Regards
John BHT
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For many years, my wife and I have been to a couple of Antique and Collectors fairs every year. Whilst my wife continues to look for things to add to her collections, I have recently been aware that I have been looking at forms, and designs applied to them, in ceramics and glass wares. A couple of weeks ago we went to such an event, and I was particularly struck by some modern glass designs from Czech Republic. I have therefore worked out a couple of forms to make in wood, probably segmented forms, based on these designs, and although not the same, they are certainly an inspiration to develop my turnings. Who knows where this could lead. When I make one of these I will certainly post here and ask for comments. Malcolm.
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Hi all
I am getting round to posting more on the ways I work to discuss in this thread, but I am trying to catch up with 5 weeks’ worth of work, impossible.
In the meantime it may be good to get the subject going if we think about what inspiration and creativity each mean to us as individuals and why we feel we find it difficult to realise when trying to come up with ideas.
It is obvious from all your responses that you all are thinking your work, how you go about making it, and what external stimulus has an impact on it. But it is worth thinking about inspiration and creativity and what it means to us as individuals.
Have a muse, is there a difference, if so what ?. In the first instance just think about it without using any external reference. Hopefully you won't mind discussing your thoughts here.
Finally, think about how easy or happy your are to discuss your thoughts in a public forum and if you feel this would hinder your being fully open with ideas and thoughts. ?
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I'll add a question to this, if I may.
What do you (as in anybody reading this) do to force a creative result?
To explain, one piece of wood is a bowl, goblet, candlestick etc, a second is likely to be a lid, but when I get up to 6+ pieces of wood then it's a step from the norm. Okay it's mostly still something mostly round, but it's also more than R&B.
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I'll add a question to this, if I may.
What do you (as in anybody reading this) do to force a creative result?
To explain, one piece of wood is a bowl, goblet, candlestick etc, a second is likely to be a lid, but when I get up to 6+ pieces of wood then it's a step from the norm. Okay it's mostly still something mostly round, but it's also more than R&B.
Bryan
This is valid and the reason I posted the last, as it can help before we think about materials or techniques, or even the idea of what to make, to think about the thought process of being creative and inspiration. Before we start looking at how to go to the designing stage which is where you possibly are with your question.
However your point of forcing a creative result is an excellent question, it will be valuable to see what responses are posted.
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I'm not an artistic turner and have no real ambition to be one. However, design and form are massively important whichever area of turning you work in. For me, knowing what shapes work together, the sort of diameters that create the best flow to a curve. Even though I mostly work to drawings, there is often a need to add artistic licence to fill in the gaps that drawings often leave.
I wonder if people spend enough time planning or working through ideas before putting wood on the lathe? I have often heard that people put the wood on the lathe and let the wood suggest what to make. The trouble is 90 odd percent of bits of wood are just that, it's the turning that has to make the wood sing. A bit of forward planning really helps, even if its a rough sketch or line. No need to break out the water colours!
Cheers
Richard
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Can you force a creative result? You start with an idea in mind but it evolves as you investigate, experiment and work on it. Personally I am not comfortable simply having an idea and being fixed in making sure it is made the way I originally intended as the process of creating seems to bring fresh ideas and inspiration. This all sounds very high faluting but basically I find that it is an ongoing process. Maybe just me as we all work differently.
I agree with Richard that we need to start with an idea of the end result but, unless we are working to specific design we should be prepared to keep an open mind and change as we go along. Not quite 'letting the wood suggest what to make' but there is perhaps an element of that.
Pete
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I fully understand Richard's point about knowing what shapes work together, but I must admit to not thinking about it, I just do it these days and it works. Perhaps I do think about it subconsciously or maybe I have made so many of them that I know what is coming next! I think it is a bit like cooking, I never know what all the different herbs do but I always chuck some in anyway, tastes alright to me.
Bryan asked about forcing an idea but I wonder if that should be develop an idea? When I made that Pau Amarillo pot on pg 12 of the Gallery I made it to experiment with a burning tip shape. I burnt triangles and when I came to the finial it was obvious to me the shape of said finial but more importantly the colour. (which then dictated the wood etc. etc.) This for me was a defining moment. However, when I tried a similar pot with circles burnt on to it and thought a round ball finial would be right, it didn't look as good and I did feel that I had forced that idea at the time. So on that occasion for me it didn't work (and it hasn't sold yet)
I have also heard those same words as Richard, "I just put the wood on the lathe and it tells me what to make" yeah, right. That never happens to me.
I have taken on board some of the comments from similar conversations in the past, so I now carry a note book with me and draw or describe some whole or part thereof of something that I like, a shape, colour or texture or even a different use for an object. This is a hard habit to form but I am trying.
When we had the competition running here I was beginning to get the thought processes going each month but then I was only interpreting someone else's idea.
I think that is enough for now, I will let someone else speak.
Regards
John BHT
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Hi Mark...can inspiration happen without experience? Surely, inspiration is sudden, free-flowing thought which originates either from deep-seated memory of past experiences, or from a current experience. If so, when we suddenly feel inspired to produce a particular piece, the shape, the colour, the texture or the materials that we feel inspired to use must have been seen before, whether in an object produced by man or an item produced by the natural world.
Even those turners who pick up a 'lump' and start to work, letting inspiration and design ideas flow are doing this because of what they know 'works' in terms of shape and form. Whilst those who use a more considered approach, involving a formal planning/design process, are similarly bringing a wealth of experience to mind in order to design their next piece of turning.
When I make a piece such as the sycamore/blackwood sculpture that I posted in the gallery a few months ago ... http://www.awgb.co.uk/awgbforum/index.php/topic,1625.0.html ... I firstly have an initial idea, then I mull it around in my mind for days, sometimes weeks, before I start work. In the interim period I will develop the idea in my mind, perhaps as a result of seeing something that suggests a suitable variation to my original idea, or perhaps as a result of further inspiration based on previous experience. I believe that design and inspiration are inextricably linked....that you don't get either one in isolation!
Les
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This is a subject I always find a brilliant. The comments are interesting in relation to how we produce our work as individuals and for me is a continual learning curve;
From my research and studies I see it as this. (mind you I am sure you could think and dissect each definition to eternity)
Inspiration is a source that influences us in the creation of an idea;
As Malcolm showed in finding inspiration by using the glass he saw as a reference for the pieces he is working on.
You may also find inspiration from other sources other than solid/static sources ( pottery, building, nature as examples), but also dance, music etc, such as being inspired by the gentle flowing lines of ballet or the harsh aggressive lines/form of cosac.
Creativity is when we use our ideas that have been inspired by something to produce new or unique ideas within our work. So I may be inspired by Kimono patterns, a piece of glass work, the shape of a building, an animal footprint in the mud or anything around which we use to think about and develop an idea for, or within our work.
So when I produce a hollow form I am producing a shape, it is not a new to me or a unique, so I am not being creative. It may have been inspired by a piece of Chinese pottery but the shape has been around for thousands of years, so while I am inspired by it, I am not being creative I am crafting an item without anything new.
If I use the chinese pottery as a reference for shape as a starting point and mix it up by thinking about how I can come up with something new to me then this is being creative.
IE, the piece I produce below is of a common form, used by many and one that originated from the Far East. In fact most forms did and many can be traced back to early pottery from 14,000 bc.
But the idea, as you will probably know, (the piece has been around for some time) came to me when I was on holiday eating chilli chocolate http://www.lindt-shop.co.uk/our-ranges/excellence/lindt-excellence-chilli-100g.html?gclid=CLWrh6HR1LkCFUld3godlgIAOA (http://www.lindt-shop.co.uk/our-ranges/excellence/lindt-excellence-chilli-100g.html?gclid=CLWrh6HR1LkCFUld3godlgIAOA) this one in particular, although the wrapper has changed a bit since then, as when I was chomping on it it was predominantly black with just the red chilli.
(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/chilli4ed.jpg)
I thought about the colours and form and how I could included them together having set criteria. This being I wanted to be a contemporary (inspired by my taste in interiors) and to embody simplicity (my inspiration from Japanese simplicity/influences.)
Then I sat with a sketch pad and mixed my ideas up until I was satisfied.
At this point I set about the 'design' specifics in order to make the piece practically. It is this stage which as Richard clarifies, by taking a short amount of time to plan a piece before the wood goes onto the lathe can be the difference between an piece that works or not.
The process was initially inspired, followed by the creative process, then the final design.
A exercise to stimulate creativity is one I use often form 'Chuck Green, Ideas Book' called 'Jolt thinking'. The technique helps to promote creative thinking. When you want an idea close your eyes, turn around so you are looking in a different direction, open your eyes and the first thing you see is your inspiration/point of reference for a new idea.
So as I wrote this I carried out this exercise and the first thing I looked at was my television. In turn I started thinking about films and from this famous actors, then John Wayne and the rocky formations in the american desert. Any one of these ideas could be thought of as ideas for a piece. The formations of the rocks as a form or texture etc.
When out walking with my dog I do this all the time. (just make sure there isn't anyone nearby as you may get some strange looks).
I keep a notepad and along the walk carry out the exercise several times, jotting down what I saw then as I walk I think about them and jot down or sketch an idea. Also my camera is always with me and I perform the same exercise with photographs.
Try it out, see how you get on.
A few points though. Don't worry about (can I make it on the lathe), forget about the practical, this will come later. The idea is to stimulate the creative process, the more you do it the more it becomes easy. Eventually you will see an idea in everything you look at.
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I am finding this very interesting. I have tried the 'wood will tell me' technique and fast found that quite limiting. I wound have to agree with Richard at least some pre-planning needs to be done. If I do not plan I find I get stuck trying to form my vision as I can not work out how to hold the piece to do the next cut or I find out I have chopped of a chucking point early. At this early start in my turning journey lack of creative ideas are less of a problem than having the tooling technique needed to produce them.
Paul
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Paul and all
Pre-planning is important and the 'wood will tell me' I believe is often something that comes from past experience while people work. It is no different than any other skill, over time the experience is what we draw upon.
Have you looked at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Woodturning-Design-Derek-Hayes/dp/1861088655
As well as woodturning project books show the processes for turning the various projects, bowls, boxes etc, by starting with these set projects you could plan a few different ideas within the parameters of the projects.
It is worth making a note by jotting down the processes you use as you work on different projects. Check to see if they are standard and simplify is needs be.
Check magazine articles and see how each person works, you will find that nearly ever project is approached in the same way. For instance, I work in the following way for all of my projects.
1/ Screw chuck between centres.
2/ Balance and produce spigot and waste section.
3/ Rough base of form/main form.
4/ Reverse into chuck, refine the form shape.
5/ Finish the outside with abrasive.
4/ Measure and drill out to depth.
5/ Hollow out, be it a bowl, box, hollow form etc
6/ Finish inside with abrasive
7/ Reverse onto jam chuck or friction drive and finish base form and finish with abrasive.
8/ Remove waste and blend base with abrasive.
This basic eight processes are the same for all of my work. There may be tweeks but by working in the same way every time I do not have to think about what I am doing as it becomes ingrained.
Once you have a set way of working you can in the most forget about this when designing. Or at least as you are so aware of how you normally work any design issue with quickly be ironed out.
For any new design, knowing this is my foundation I design a piece using a CAD system. This allows me to scale it on the page so I can check the dimension and proportions.
The software I use is this.
Serif Draw
(http://http://www.serif.com/drawplus//)
(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/serif_zps19b0f726.jpg)
You can use a software to pre-plan the project by using a 'rule of thirds' grid to make sure the proportion is correct. Once correct the dimension tool with give you the sizes. Simples. :)
It means you can make designs without going to the lathe and wasting wood.
Here for this vase you can see the rule of thirds grid ( in blue) used to construct the main form and main parts within it.
(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/Ruleofthirds_zpse0b3b673.jpg)
Here you can see the same form. Each part of a form should (but does not have to) conform to the rule of thirds. Practically speaking this means that the separate parts can also be broken down into thirds, as seen for the main body and the neck of the vase.
(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/Ruleofthirds2_zps0d23801a.jpg)
Note the main bulge/shoulder of the base form is 2/3rds the height of the body,the foot is 1/3rd the diameter. Also see that this is carried into the neck where the narrowest section is 1/3rd up.
Once I have a drawing with the correct proportions, I can lock everything together and drag or squash the form, in turn everything moves proportionally and I never have to worry about working out the proportions or sizing again. Just take it from the drawing. :) See the squashed version below.
(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/Ruleofthirds3_zps41a1835c.jpg)
This is how I work. Seeing at the moment the creative side of the thread is not pulling in too much input at the moment;
How about looking more at designing. ?
How do people plan their work. ?
Do you produce project drawings and make a prototype first.
If you do not plan the projects, is it far to say we are stabbing in the dark somewhat and the chances of us getting the best from the wood is minimal..
It does not matter if you have a software, this one shown you can get as a free download to try it out. And you will never have to pay the full price for it as once you subscribe then will send you offers especially if you download it but don't buy it to start with.
Let me know if this is useful. ? I am happy to talk about ideas but if others are not minded to give input also I can find other things to do. :)
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Hello Mark,
seeing how other people work is always interesting(to me anyway)this serif draw will be interesting, I am going to look at it in a minute.
So I have been planning something but have thought back to the inspiration for it.
I have nearly always been adverse to colouring wood but on seeing a particular blue on a piece of woodturning I was quite taken with it and wanted to use it. I have had an idea for a turning that I have never seen before (so I will not be giving too much away at the moment)so thought I would use that for my blue project.
I quite like using pewter in some of my work so am looking at combining that aswell. I also like Troika so will try to include that too. All I have to do now is come up with the final shape and it needs to be one I like, and then I can make it, this has been going on now for about 5 months. Today I turned the vessel and applied the first coat which should be dry by now so I will work on the inside this afternoon. I put a coat on the outside to give me an idea of colour for the inside, on this occasion I think the inside will be bright gold. As part of it will be pierced I need to ensure the inside finish is spot on.( with a black internal finish I usually get away with a couple of coats, with gold I use a sealer.primer. undercoat and top coat to prevent the grain from telegraphing through.)
So although I have determined certain parts of the end product, shape ,colour, finish, I have yet to decide on the small details like piercing pattern and how I will incorporate the pewter, although I do have an idea in mind for that.
So my inspiration for this piece is 1st colour, then my turning idea, and then pewter and Troika ware.
I don't think this is anywhere near to the way you think about your creative work but this haphazard way is the norm for me, hence my need to organise my thoughts.
Regards
John BHT
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John
Your project sounds interesting and I look forward to seeing when it is finished.
The method of designing a piece I have shown here is not something that needs to be done every time and after a few you get the hang of seeing the form by eye as it is made. I am sure there are forms that you can make without having to measure out the main shape etc.
Working via a CAD system means you can make errors on the screen/paper long before going to the lathe.
In relation to your project another way to help with a project to first do a storyboard, this is something that we did in Ireland for the wall project. It can help with brain storming and ideas.
It is basically a collection of pictures and materials to inspire you connected with the project you are undertaking.
So for yours you could research and collect pictures that you like of Troika, pewter, and or other uses of the colours. The pictures are not intended to be copied but to stimulate thoughts and ideas from what you see and use them within the piece. It could include text, poems, songs anything to stimulate your in to thinking about the project you are making.
Photo courtesy of Harry Reid
(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/HarryReidIrishWallProject_zps818569ab.jpg)
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Thank you Mark,
JohnBHT
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I have tried the 'Listen to the wood while turning it' technique, it does not work for me.
But if I find a special piece of timber I've been known to sit it on a shelf and look at it until I can see what's hidden inside, or more, what I want it to be.
To me the most creative method is to make something (I made eggs) and keep pushing the design to see where you can take it. So from an Egg, to hollow eggs, to long thin egg shaped forms with fancy stands and finails (sort of boxes) but I finished up with the hollwed Banksia pods (pure egg shape ) on driftwood http://www.awgb.co.uk/awgbforum/index.php/topic,888.0.html (http://www.awgb.co.uk/awgbforum/index.php/topic,888.0.html)
I think that is why I find turners 'Series' work so interesting - you can follow the development of an idea to the final conclusion.
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I have tried the 'Listen to the wood while turning it' technique, it does not work for me.
But if I find a special piece of timber I've been known to sit it on a shelf and look at it until I can see what's hidden inside, or more, what I want it to be.
To me the most creative method is to make something (I made eggs) and keep pushing the design to see where you can take it. So from an Egg, to hollow eggs, to long thin egg shaped forms with fancy stands and finails (sort of boxes) but I finished up with the hollwed Banksia pods (pure egg shape ) on driftwood http://www.awgb.co.uk/awgbforum/index.php/topic,888.0.html (http://www.awgb.co.uk/awgbforum/index.php/topic,888.0.html)
I think that is why I find turners 'Series' work so interesting - you can follow the development of an idea to the final conclusion.
Bryan
That is fantastic and thank you for sharing the way you work. This is just what I was hoping for, for us all to discuss how we work, what we find helps or where we find difficulty. My way may not work for all and bouncing ideas off of each other is a great way to brainstorm.
Would you mind adding the picture of your banksia pod sculpture here so that it adds to the discussion and people can see how you arrived at the end result.
Beautiful piece. Thanks for sharing.
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I find that I start with an idea and then end up doing a load of pieces in the same vein. I don't exactly let the wood dictate design but often make something that will fit the wood as far as size etc is concerned. Often I make something and then it ends up on the shelf for ages while I try it on different bases or with different finials, lids etc. One piece seems to direct to the next one and so I suppose it is a series as Bryan mentioned. I have always loved oriental ceramics and the simplicity of the designs and so after some direction from another turner I started looking into the various shapes and designs. I find that each one is different even if I try and make the shape the same as I let the wood provide any decoration e.g. the figuring, natural faults etc. I suspect very few of us can claim to make or design things that aren't influenced by something that someone has done before and often wonder who had the original ideas? A highlight for me was a t a wood show recently a lady stopped and said she liked the Japanese style work I had on display. She was Japanese.
Pete
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There are those forms of turning which are dictated by the timber, mainly if the piece has been cored out, then you're presented with very nice set of nesting bowls or by the thickness and movement of the timber as to what can be returned from the piece, a set form.
Segmented is another, should it not be designed nor planned, right down to grain alignment for best glue up, the timber and assembly dictates.
Many are also faced at first with pre-cut blanks of a some what small size, with which there are limitations, with Paul, as with most it can also be the case with Equipment/Tools .... it's where you can read " I then hold in my vacuum chuck " WHAT!! the job ends here... Oh .. it's sooo often hold by your usual way to finish ..
On the note of design something which I have found interesting for inspiration in the past, as much as now, are Miller's Antiques Handbooks ... http://www.amazon.co.uk/Millers-Antiques-Handbook-Price-2012-2013/dp/1845336364 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Millers-Antiques-Handbook-Price-2012-2013/dp/1845336364) ... been produced for years now, so copies can find there way into Charity Shops very cheap .. not just to look for Ceramics & Glass .. but Silver & Metalware, Lamps, Candlesticks, Furniture and within Pictures for designs and not just for Woodenware.
Or why not just google any related word to what you're looking to make, it fuels you with ideas to draw from and expand on.
Cheers David
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Hi Mark. This is a very interesting thread and discussion. I have to confess that a piece of wood ready for the lathe does little to inspire me into creating something. If making for example a platter with a coloured rim, I will make the platter and then try different ways to colour, making patterns or whatever. The colouring and patterning is the creative part for me and it just develops as I go along. However, I also do a lot of segmented work where preplanning and drawing is essential. So here I think about what to make, refining as time passes, and then put pencil to paper to design the creation I want. I worked for many years for a very creative American company in process and product development. We would be presented with a customer problem (not necessarily perceived by the customer) and I and others were tasked in creating and developing a solution. When the project was started, we did not know exactly what the solution would be, only a road way to it. The solution developed as we progressed, and in some cases it was close to where we started and in others completely different. What I am trying to say is that creativity comes in different forms, can be instant ( a eureka moment), or take a number of steps to get to the desired result. Some people have the right mind set to innovate and create, whilst others have little clue where to go. Creativity requires inspiration. Inspiration is all around us, in things we see, hear, feel, observe. Different things will enter the mind and come together at a random time from the subconscious, things click. I always found that people together can be great for developing something, as you say above 'brainstorming'. Something one person says can trigger something else in your mind and help you move forward in leaps and bounds. I am trying to move into more artistic woodturning forms and have some ideas to make what I will call sculptures. I'll post when I get them done, but it may be a while. I'm afraid I have more ideas to try than time to do everything at the moment. Malcolm.
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Pete, I think compliments don't get much better than that! You certainly know you must be on the right track anyway! ;)
BHT, you have to start somewhere, blue is as good a place as any! Not sure your way is that bad, you kind of built upon what you initially thought.
Drag, developing an idea is a really good way of approaching it. As long as you don't get bored of the subject! Again, an egg is as good a place to start as any. I guess, with something like that, you learn as much from the journey as from anything else.
The think I struggle with, is how mountains or rivers or whatever, translate into a turning/sculpture. I know it can be done but how? That's the real talent of the artist. Which is, I guess, why I do what I do. I make other people's ideas into reality :)
Something I have noticed, many of the best art pieces are actually deceptively simple, and knowing when to stop is a big part of the skill. It's the original idea that's the hard part!
Just a few thoughts,
Richard
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Something I have noticed, many of the best art pieces are actually deceptively simple, and knowing when to stop is a big part of the skill.
Richard
What I am finding as well is that if you keep it simple, no fancy beads, texturing etc, just the shape, there is nowhere to hide the tool marks sanding marks etc and the slightest fault in the shape shouts at you. I now leave any tenons etc on when I take a piece off the lathe and go back to it later as often what looks great horizontal can look awful vertical LOL.
pete
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We've had several references to the relative merits of the wood 'talking' to us and suggesting a design path to it's turner and I have to say that I find that approach a bit 'flakey' for me, but, having said that, I have quite a stock of exotics that I've inherited from former turners and I do look very closely at each piece to determine what it should make and how it should be cut-&-shaped so as best to show-off its grain. I've been making samples of my work to trawl around galleries, so have not had the constrictions of working to a customer's brief, so this approach has worked for me and has paid rewards.
However, the range of pieces that I produced taught me a lot and has suggested a load of shapes that I'd now like to try to make, some of which I wouldn't have dared to tackle on my old lathe, so perhaps now is the time to think of a more formal design process and to start making drawings before I start turning, be they pencil sketches, or IT-produced!
Les
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Wow, it has taken off for sure.
So much input some of my thoughts on it.
Pete
That is great that the Japanese lady appreciated your work it is a great feeling.
In relation to ideas, I disagree with the notion that I often here (not that you have here) is that 'nothing is new, it's all been done before'. If this was the case companies and other makers would not be developing and releasing new products and technology that we have not seen before. There are makers out there who are coming up with new stuff all the time.
In relation to inspiration and influences, you are right many or derivative, especially our sort of work that is inspired by Far East pottery etc but being derived, so the concept of a far eastern tea caddy or lidded rice bowl is not a new idea.
But we can put our own slant on it and do something new with it that has not been done before. Finding that new, is the task. :)
Then there are those pioneers that come up with totally new works we have not seen before.
David
Are the forms of turning dictated to us due to the shape of the piece we are starting with or by our imagination and experience to be able to see something else and manipulating it. ?
A cored bowl as your example, could be used as a canvas, and yes while the canvass has a limited shape, it can be carved, pierced, coloured, textured, materials added.
It could also be cut up, carved, section glued back together to use the base form as a starting place for sculptures.
Check out the work of Michael Hosaluk.
Michael Hosaluk
(http://www.michaelhosaluk.com//)
Segmented certainly should be designed and planned, but does this mean creativity can not be included in this process, pieces can be segmented, cut up, joined and used for sculpture.
Google Jerry Bennett woodturner.
Admittedly this work is way up there, but it shows what can be done, with a lot of work, practice and creativity. Not saying it is easy but then is anything that is worth doing easy.
Malcolm
Your previous experience in your job means you have a head start, brainstorming is something we did in Police training school as well and while the context for the both of us is totally different the issue of working out a solution to an problem is the same. That can be applied to creativity and design also.
When think about ideas ( no I do not think mine are the best in the world at all, but I refuse to be told that I can not do something, or get better), I never concern myself with the technical of how to. This only restricts the designs or ideas. If we are worrying about 'how to make it' then we would stay with what we know and not get beyond it. There is always a way to make something and sometimes it takes me quite some time to work it out.
My latest Swan sculpture was an instance of this. In the end I looked to traditional turning methods that had been used for over 100 hundred years to produce it.
Richard
Your point about the simplest designs working and knowing when to stop for me are very valid. I do not feel that designs have to be over complicated to have a strong impact and often feel that we try to overcomplicate to impress, perhaps, dunno, one to think about.
Les
I hear what you say about 'the wood talking', but often I look at the way people have used the woods features and think, 'how did they think of that'. They did as it is their mind set. Look at
Terry Martin
(http://www.terrymartinwoodartist.com//)
Take a look at the front page and see how he used the woods burr crown to produce the piece he has. Ok it is a sculpture and not a turning, but this is someone that can look at a piece of wood and see how to use the same within it, let's the wood talk.
You yourself are now wanting to try new shapes etc, which shows the progression of thinking and ideas you are having.
This brings me back to what Bryan asked a while ago about ' What do you do to force a creative result' .
It has been my experience that inspiration does not come as a lightning bolt, creativity I believe can not be 'forced' to produce a result. The ideas and designs most often are developed slowly, through years of observation, refining and research and thinking.
This aside I also believe that 'being creative' or whatever you want to call it 'can' be learnt. I know it is not some magical process that only a few possess, yes there are those that pick it up more readily and will be the worlds leaders. But the rest of us can also get involved with the process and benefit from it.
Also I do not believe that being creative in woodturning means we have to move away from pure turning.
These are just my thoughts, does not mean I am in anyway right, just musing over what you said.
So as an idea and you all may not want to do this, no matter if not. Why not lets think about what we can do with a bowl turned from a standard 6 inch dia x 3 inch bowl blank.
You don't have to make it, there is no time limit or criteria other than the blank.
Just sketch your ideas if you want. Smash it up, kick it around, cut it up, burn it, stick nails in it, anything. Or Just look at what you can do with a pure form, you may think about just texturing and colouring it in ways you have not done before.
No one has to do this if they don't want to. Up to you.
Edited as I saw more typo's than normal. :-[
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I'd like to comment on Malcolm’s comment about being part of a creative team, tasked with exploring a solution.
I've always found a team effort far easier than a solo effort. me in my little workshop trying to develop an idea is one thing…
… but ask the wife,
… or have another turner visit you
… even take the idea to work and discuss over a coffee (something I can still do),
multiplies the possible answers as you bounce and modify the available ideas, tangents and off the wall thinking seems to come more naturally in groups.
Our problem is we are all solo workers (at least for the most part) it being the way of our hobby. Our creative juices are sometimes stifled by our lack of interaction which is why so many answers suggest looking at books or searching the web for that magic spark.
Think about any courses you’ve done, the way the attendee’s worked from the common thread of the subject matter to produce the work and where it led you in your turning journey.
Then you think about Marks ‘Collaborations’ last year in Australia, this year in Ireland. Look at his blog posts and see how the differing ‘artists’ all worked together, and from each other of give and expand their shared experiences.
I there is a lot to be said for a buddy system, shared time in a workshop between you and a friend, probably turn & turn about in each others workshops. I had one (Yew Turn) until we moved because of the wife’s medical condition, now it’s much harder to get ‘together’ time due to the distance between our homes.
So if you have a club member living nearby, or someone who can relate to your hobby, woodworker, machinist, or even an artist (their ideas on colour are very useful) and they see some of your work as a canvas to add interest to, try to cultivate that interaction. It will pay dividends.
Mark,
I’ll post the Banksia Pod picture later and I’ve still one of the Egg ‘Pot’s’ at home, I’ll add that as well.
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Hi Mark. I like that idea of seeing what we can create from a 6 x 3 bowl blank. I subscribe to the segmented woodturners website , and a few times a year a challenge is put up to all members if they wish to participate. This is good as it starts with a point, similar to what you suggest here, and members are asked to make whatever within the chosen parameters. The range of forms created usually is superb. This could be the same, as we all would try to design and even produce something a little different. I'm up for it. I'll get my thinking cap on and muse over the ideas and turn something. Will post when I get there.
The point above about group participation in creating ideas and solutions is very valid, even to those of us working in our workshops on our own. Family and friends can contribute enormously, and those closest to us are usually more frank than others. Although I am a 'loner' in that I do not have a club close by, I'm sure clubs can contribute a lot here as well. The opinions and discussions about our latest work can be invaluable and give thoughts and ideas to develop further the latest masterpiece. That is why I value enormously, sites like this and others, where discussions and critics are made to make us all better and more creative turners/artists.
Malcolm.
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Mark, Thank you for your brilliant input as with everyone else's, we all have our resources and at best it's something, someone has done or it wouldn't exist, lets here from you, the more the merrier, it would then be a melting pot of ideas for all to draw out and use to expand on.
I'll hopefully find time to check out Michael's work, so far I like the chair and the locations.
You've also dispelled the myth as to cored bowls as R&B are not the only end result .. seen too many nest of bowls and Glenn's commercial work.
With Bryan and I know Pete and readily myself, if not with many other Turners, the Wife's input has it's place, normally after the event, at which point it can be I like that (for) myself, well the design must have worked, just to make another given the same timber is to hand .. ;D ....
Cheers David
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Hi all
My camera is never far away from me and last evening I took this picture while out walking my dog.
When I take picture like this I study them and think about how they inspire me to come up with ideas. Sometimes it works, sometimes not, why not have a think about how what this picture means to you if anything. From this what ideas perhaps could it produce for a piece.
The ideas do not have to be related to this picture, it could just spark an idea related.
For example, you see the moon, but you may think about howling wolves ( my daughters first reaction), from this you may think about footprints in the snow. These could be used as a pattern or carving within the rim of a bowl, etc.
Look at the colours how they contrast, may be a black and white 20's theme. !
Have a think if you want to if not no worries.
(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/Moonleaveslores_zps63bd774b.jpg)
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Well Mark, The one thing that's right up or is that down your street, an Oriental theme out of a small cored blank or any limited size small piece, then why not a large bowl form, Ash or best Sycamore, pierced, textured and painted black, maybe scorched branches and leaves, then inside the white giving the balance.
Next big quesion Why not go make it .. indeed ...
Cheers David
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Mark
this really is taking off, well done.
David my thoughts entirely until................. I am using a laptop to view all this, I leant to the right and looked at the screen, Mark's moon stays the same but the leaves appear as they would on a negative. Not sure what will come of it but that has been stored in the grey matter for future use I know.
Keep it up guys.
regards
John BHT
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Mark
this really is taking off, well done.
David my thoughts entirely until................. I am using a laptop to view all this, I leant to the right and looked at the screen, Mark's moon stays the same but the leaves appear as they would on a negative. Not sure what will come of it but that has been stored in the grey matter for future use I know.
Keep it up guys.
regards
John BHT
What it is, all this new tecology ... ::) .. :o .. can't beat a box brownie and a slate and chalk .. till someone swipes that toooo ......... ;D ..
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Well Mark, The one thing that's right up or is that down your street, an Oriental theme out of a small cored blank or any limited size small piece, then why not a large bowl form, Ash or best Sycamore, pierced, textured and painted black, maybe scorched branches and leaves, then inside the white giving the balance.
Next big quesion Why not go make it .. indeed ...
Cheers David
Hi David
It may be the time of morning, but I don't understand what you are saying here. ?
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Mark asked me to add these pics to this thread following in post about my 'Egg Turning' development. I think they have both been posted before, sop please excuse me for repeat posting.
As I said, I started with a turned egg, pushed and pulled it into all-sorts of shapes and finally back to an egg from a Banksia pod free form.
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Hello Bryan, I had seen the Banksia pod before but can;t remember seeing the egg. Very nice. Does it open?
I have spent the day developing an idea that i have been working on for some time now, but I had hit a stumbling block. I believe I have now overcome that particular problem and it may be due to this thread, so thanks guys.
regards
john BHT
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John,
yes the 'egg' comes out of the stand and the lid comes off. it is fully hollowed.
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Well Mark, The one thing that's right up or is that down your street, an Oriental theme out of a small cored blank or any limited size small piece, then why not a large bowl form, Ash or best Sycamore, pierced, textured and painted black, maybe scorched branches and leaves, then inside the white giving the balance.
Next big quesion Why not go make it .. indeed ...
Cheers David
Hi David
It may be the time of morning, but I don't understand what you are saying here. ?
Is it just the highlighted you didn't understand ... It was meant as your thoughts, asking if I had that vision, why not go and make the piece, trust it clears what I intended to mean.
Cheers David
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Well Mark, The one thing that's right up or is that down your street, an Oriental theme out of a small cored blank or any limited size small piece, then why not a large bowl form, Ash or best Sycamore, pierced, textured and painted black, maybe scorched branches and leaves, then inside the white giving the balance.
Next big quesion Why not go make it .. indeed ...
Cheers David
Hi David
It may be the time of morning, but I don't understand what you are saying here. ?
Is it just the highlighted you didn't understand ... It was meant as your thoughts, asking if I had that vision, why not go and make the piece, trust it clears what I intended to mean.
Cheers David
Sorry David
It was far too early for me yesterday, first time up at 0530 for a demo in a couple of months and what with being washed out from the virus my brain did not start working until, well, I can not recall. :)
In relation to the picture.
I have taken it as a point of inspiration for a piece.
At the moment I am merely thinking deeply about what the picture means to me, what the moon and the autumn leaves mean. Thoughts of childhood days at my grandparents when I would look out of the upstairs windows and be told what the constellations are.
Jotting down notes and sketching ideas and from this researching, the moon, tidal changes, leaf formations/structure, decay, the meaning of autumn in various religions, Pagan moon goddess, Pagan tea leaf readings, religion. Collecting reference pictures from my childhood and other sources for a storyboard. After I have absorbed myself into this for a few weeks I will start to think of a project based on what stirs in my grey matter. :)
At this stage I am not thinking of what type of piece it will be, bowl, hollow form or sculpture based as for me it will only distract from connecting with the subject/picture.
I will the thread updated but it may be a while as I am snowed under with work at the moment. This being a large amount of the time I think while I produce my bread and butter work.
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Mark asked me to add these pics to this thread following in post about my 'Egg Turning' development. I think they have both been posted before, sop please excuse me for repeat posting.
As I said, I started with a turned egg, pushed and pulled it into all-sorts of shapes and finally back to an egg from a Banksia pod free form.
Thanks for adding this, I know you have posted these in the gallery before, but I hoped it would stimulate some thinking by showing how you have progressed your ideas.
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For those interested in looking at ways to stimulate creativity and develop design, this publication is useful read and suggests many exercises to help with creativity, such as;
Creative Workshop
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Creative-Workshop-Challenges-Sharpen-Design/dp/1600617972/)
Brainstorming
TimeBoxing
Word listing
Picture association
Mind mapping
Brute think
Idea Inversion.
The subjects are covered specifically for the times when creativity needs to be stimulated. Although the book is based in graphic design the processes and exercises are easily converted to our craft, with there being many examples of the process being used for various projects.
One of the interesting points that the book gets across is that creativity comes about by 'doing' and that it is important just to 'make' and not worry about the ends result as this in itself will stimulate creativity and new ideas.
There are many other publications on line which are of use and the ones I have read and think may help I will post if anyone is interested.!!
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One of the interesting points that the book gets across is that creativity comes about by 'doing' and that it is important just to 'make' and not worry about the ends result as this in itself will stimulate creativity and new ideas.
I must admit that my 'inspiration often comes when I am in the middle of making something to the point that it is all too easy to get sidetracked LOL. That "Ooh I wonder if" moment when doing something stimulates the thought processes in often a completely different direction, usually based o something i have seen somewhere else. Also find that when something goes wrong it forces me to think differently as well. I like the Japanese philosophy of repairing things instead of just throwing them away when they get broken or go wrong.
Pete
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Hi Pete
Just popped in for a cuppa and saw your reply. This is so true for me as well, in that it is often the times when I just play, don't worry about what I am going to make or dare I say it, mess up big style and smash something, or ruin a finishing effect that ideas seem to flow much more freely.
The philosophy of repairing items is a difficult one for us to grasp in the west certainly I find it difficult at times to let go of the ordered perfection that is force fed as we grow up. with it ad for this reason have returned to working with cracked oak posts more as while the forms and techniques are simplistic the letting go of the faults and seeing them as beauty is at times hard.
This being one of the reasons I posted the picture as an idea for inspiration. The picture and the end result being related to it in any way is not the aim, but thinking about ideas is as creativity is something that if practiced little and often will soon become second nature.
Do you ever use bubble charts/graphs for ideas as a way of thinking up new ideas ? it is a simple way of coming up with variations of a theme or a new idea.
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Hi Pete
The philosophy of repairing items is a difficult one for us to grasp in the west certainly I find it difficult at times to let go of the ordered perfection that is force fed as we grow up. with it ad for this reason have returned to working with cracked oak posts more as while the forms and techniques are simplistic the letting go of the faults and seeing them as beauty is at times hard.
No points for design ... it was too nice a Tea/Coffee ... come watering pot of the Wifes' to throw away for the want of a knob ... ;D ...
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David,
a dab of gloss white and you'd never know it was a repair.
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This pot is apple burr and was turned green and split as I was turning it. All the splits etc have been sealed with brass and it will be returned hence the tenon on the bottom still.
I use a lot of green oak or old posts as well primarily because I like the defects. Odd I know. I make quite a few goblets with it and let them warp, split etc then repair the splits. The re-enactment folk love them. Can be a problem mind I have one I am trying to seal at the moment that has a burr patch in the middle and I am having real problems sealing all the tiny holes. Can't have their mead all running out can we?
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Am I seeing/noticing more since this thread started?
Not sure, but after living in my town for nearly 50 years, today whilst stuck in traffic ,I noticed some stonework that had an unusual texture on it, one that I will use in the future. I have only driven and walked past this on and off since 1964 so I suppose eventually I was going to notice it. Wasn't I?
regards
John
BHT
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I really like that effect Pete....I've just ordered a load of brass dust, polyester resins and ca, so can't wait to get started on this. I picked up a 9ft plank of yew the other day, 19" wide by 2.5" thick, but it's got its fair share of natural defects that will need filling and this looks to be just the job!
Les
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Am I seeing/noticing more since this thread started?
Not sure, but after living in my town for nearly 50 years, today whilst stuck in traffic ,I noticed some stonework that had an unusual texture on it, one that I will use in the future. I have only driven and walked past this on and off since 1964 so I suppose eventually I was going to notice it. Wasn't I?
regards
John
BHT
Once you start seeing things John it becomes 2nd nature. Living with a designer I have found I now look at things completely differently. Here in Wiltshire there are hundreds of old buildings with amazing features but a lot of them are hidden if all you see are the shop fronts for example. Each species of tree has a different shape, charity shops and junk shops are a goldmine of old pottery, glass ware etc with both beautiful and hideous shapes. I especially like walking around Bath and always go to the little Holborne museum where they have a permanent collection of little japanese netsuke which are truly inspirational. certainly way beyond my skill level but well worth a look.
Pete
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Pete
In relation to your skills in filling broken vessels, you couldn't fix this one for me could you if I send it over, I haven't got enough filler. :)
Part finished
http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/latest_zpscdcd9e4f.jpg[/img]](http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss166/fullcircle1/latest_zpscdcd9e4f.jpg) (http://[IMG)
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Possibly Mark though personally I like it as it is. If you had filled the holes prior to texturing you could have textured the filler as well LOL. The texturing reminds me of the busts I used to watch the locals making in East Africa. They did the texturing for the hair with a sharpened screwdriver sort of wiggling it across the wood.
Pete
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I used Brass mixed with Epoxy Resin a couple of times The brass I used I scrounged for a small fee from a key cutter there was some steel mixed with it but a strong magnet soon removed it.
Regards John
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Well Mark, The one thing that's right up or is that down your street, an Oriental theme out of a small cored blank or any limited size small piece, then why not a large bowl form, Ash or best Sycamore, pierced, textured and painted black, maybe scorched branches and leaves, then inside the white giving the balance.
Next big quesion Why not go make it .. indeed ...
Cheers David
Hi David
It may be the time of morning, but I don't understand what you are saying here. ?
Is it just the highlighted you didn't understand ... It was meant as your thoughts, asking if I had that vision, why not go and make the piece, trust it clears what I intended to mean.
Cheers David
Sorry David
It was far too early for me yesterday, first time up at 0530 for a demo in a couple of months and what with being washed out from the virus my brain did not start working until, well, I can not recall. :)
In relation to the picture.
I have taken it as a point of inspiration for a piece.
At the moment I am merely thinking deeply about what the picture means to me, what the moon and the autumn leaves mean. Thoughts of childhood days at my grandparents when I would look out of the upstairs windows and be told what the constellations are.
Jotting down notes and sketching ideas and from this researching, the moon, tidal changes, leaf formations/structure, decay, the meaning of autumn in various religions, Pagan moon goddess, Pagan tea leaf readings, religion. Collecting reference pictures from my childhood and other sources for a storyboard. After I have absorbed myself into this for a few weeks I will start to think of a project based on what stirs in my grey matter. :)
At this stage I am not thinking of what type of piece it will be, bowl, hollow form or sculpture based as for me it will only distract from connecting with the subject/picture.
I will the thread updated but it may be a while as I am snowed under with work at the moment. This being a large amount of the time I think while I produce my bread and butter work.
Hi Mark, the things of interest you note of the Moon ... it also draws cooler, if not the coldest round the Full Moon, something of interest, if not an eerie sight, will be four Blood Red Moons over the next 2 years .. 2014-15 .. all falling on very significant dates, maybe not in the Gregorian calendar.
We'll watch & see. Cheers David
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I wonder why this thread was allowed to sink into obscurity ?
I like the idea of taking a standard 6 x 3 blank and seeing what can come out of it. Thinking cap is on ( it aint alf hot mum )
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Graham, it would be a shame for this not to continue, the biggest driving force as with the originator is .. was Mark.
You've hit on an idea, in fact a new thread, should enough take up the challenge .. a contest for other words, what can be turned from like you've said a 6x3 blank or any other theme .. a similar topic came up a few years ago an Pandora Box .. did it go anywhere .. ::) ..
David
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It will be interesting to see if others agree and are up for it :)
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I'll have a look in the morning to see if I have a 6" x 3" blank, or anything near enough.
I think Graham has hit upon an idea, we are all used to having monthly themes at our various clubs, can we (users of this forum) consider ourselves another club, with monthly themes?
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I see no reason why we shouldn't have a monthly, or bi monthly, challenge. It would be fun.
I must emphasise though that this is not my idea. Mark Sanger threw out the challenge back on page 2 of this thread but I don't see that anyone picked it up.
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Hi Graham
I've never really looked back at the old posts and after you finding this one I think that I should, it's been very interesting.
Now that sounds like a great idea and a bit of fun shall we just start it and say pieces need to be posted by a date?
Ed
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On holiday at the moment so make the date realistic (about 6 weeks or so)and I would quite happily submit a piece.
There used to be a monthly competition here but is was suspended through lack of participation, and even when it was running it was always the same names taking part.
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BHT
I think that it would be the same now only a few will get involved but you never know we could build on it :)
Ed
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From what I have seen I also doubt that many would join in to start with but it would provide some vibrant interest for the forum and hopefully generate or encourage some interesting conversations.
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Just to round of this part of the discussion ( hopefully this thread will go on ) there is now a separate thread for the 6 X 3 challenge.