AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => Websites, Videos & other sources of interest => Topic started by: woodndesign on August 20, 2013, 08:00:00 PM
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.....http://shadowoftheturning.com/ (http://shadowoftheturning.com/).....http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_works.htm (http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_works.htm)......
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.....http://shadowoftheturning.com/ (http://shadowoftheturning.com/).....http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_works.htm (http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_works.htm)......
I left it open for reply.
No thoughts on Binh Pho's work and where he has taken it ... Love .. Hate .. Are we the same old same old .. round n brown .. only the few who do or can create outside the box .. The United States seem to not only be far ahead, but have different views of turned wood .. they talk of work in Museums and not just Galleries as Art, is it we hear more about them, their work, than we do of ourselves and our own .. are we missing a point or something here.
We seem to have a great divided as to who is classed as a Turner, to what degree, who's not or of one's skills .. was it not after all with the Livery about who was, could or not able to work in the City .. picked by one's peers .... where is that seen today .. Ah .. Register of Professional Turners.
You find today that even The Woodturning Magazine is the best part American ... with articles, profile, feature and supplies, we're no longer British and far from United Kingdom.
Everyone needs to pull together as a single body, not single bodies pulled apart, as divided we fall and turning too.
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Hi Dewi....sorry for the lack of reply, which I assure you was born out of a lack of time to study the website, and not out of a lack of interest in it. Things are a bit hectic here at the moment, having been away for a month and just returned, but also having to strip out a section of the workshop to make room for a new ( and much bigger!) lathe. So, I haven't been using the forum much for the last month, but I decided to follow your link this morning and realised just what I'd been missing.
Binh Pho's work is truly inspirational and it's easy to see why, with work of this quality, it's museums that are featuring his work, every bit as much as galleries - maybe it's a reflection on how our American peers view the function of a museum! In its true sense, the word museum stems from the word 'muse', meaning to cause interest. If I recall correctly, the original muses were the inspirers of interest in various branches of the arts! It seems that no matter what UK museums do to try to struggle out of the old image of themselves as dusty old places where academics go to study matters-ancient, the good old British public stoically refuses to accept their modern approach to appealing to our interest, so we rely on galleries, where the emphasis is on sales, every bit as much as it is upon 'interest'. Thus the average bloke in the street rarely gets to see work of this quality because he could never afford to buy it, so why should he bother venturing into a swish, up-market gallery?
OK...rant over....I shall go now and rip out the rather splendid ( and exceptionally heavy) bench that I built my old lathe because the new one's got legs. When I'm done, I shall spend some time studying Binh Pho.
Cheers...Les
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There is definitely a divide between those that see wood turning as a purist craft in it's own right and those who see it as part of an overall artistic discipline. For me Binh Po and those like him who use turning as part of a wider art form are inspirational. To take turning out of the wider field of art and craft is, IMHO, a mistake. The wider public is unaware of what is being done partly because wood turning is an insular discipline. It is rarely seen in art galleries let alone museums in this country. We regularly get design and furniture home improvement magazines coming into the home here and rarely do you see any wood turning in the articles about decor, pottery, fine art, furniture and cabinet making but wood turning? Never. I recently did a spot on local radio and took some pieces in and the presenter was going on about them non stop as he had no idea such things could or were made. If we are going to see wood turning portrayed with the same sense of pride and achievement as we do in the States we need to get our act together and not just display our work in wood shows and the like but in the wider field of art and craft. We only have ourselves to blame really. We seek the approval of other turners but how often do we try and publicise our work to the general public?
Just my personal observations but I suspect I am not alone.
Pete
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Hi Pete...
but how often do we try and publicise our work to the general public?
I tried....I wrote to two main galleries in North Wales, with photographs of my best three or four pieces and I didn't even get any reply at all! OK...my work isn't that wonderful (yet?), but you'd think that galleries should be encouraging us, not ignoring us!
Les
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There are galleries that will accept wood but they are few and far between. I have been looking for some myself and found one or two that may take it but you have to really look for them.
Pete
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I'm not sure it was a true 'Gallery', but I walked into something similar about 3 weeks ago. Looking around I spotted a small wooden vase. I picked it up and instantly realised it was ceramic - I burst out laughing.
Not suprisingly the owner wanted to know what was wrong, so I showed her a few images on my phone of the vases I make and finish them to look like ceramic.
She saw the funny side and also laughed, but when I asked about taking my work she was not interested in wooden items!
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....... but when I asked about taking my work she was not interested in wooden items!
Philistine!
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Hi Pete... but how often do we try and publicise our work to the general public?
I tried....I wrote to two main galleries in North Wales, with photographs of my best three or four pieces and I didn't even get any reply at all! OK...my work isn't that wonderful (yet?), but you'd think that galleries should be encouraging us, not ignoring us!
Les
Les
Galleries get a lot of approaches from makers of all disciplines and don't always have time to go through them. The advice I was given many years ago on approaching galleries was to do your research, find out who to contact and try to arrange a meeting. It does take a lot of effort but it is worth it in the long run as you get to see the gallery, how they operate and see if it's suitable for your work.
Mark
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Oh dear, I feel a rant coming on....
Firstly, the state of UK turning.... It does annoy me when people put it down. We have some of the most fantastic and creative turners around, many of whom spend a good deal of their time in the US demonstrating. The fact that we see more US turners in the magazine would be because once all the UK artists have been profiled you need to look further afield. There is also the numbers between here and the US. More people over there, you'll get more artists. Simple.
The biggest problem for turning is that for every exceptional turner there will be 50 or 100 making s*#t. I believe this comes from 2 places. The first is that people try to sell their work before they are really ready to. You've made 10 bowls, given a few away as gifts now what? Sell them!
The other part of the problem is that people want to run before they can walk. They don't get their technique sorted before trying to make their masterpiece. I believe you should learn to make bowls (for example) properly and to a high standard before moving them on to art.
An example of this: I bet Binh Pho doesn't grab a random bit of wood, stick it on the lathe and 'see what happens'. A bet he doesn't get many catches either. Or regularly cut through the wall of his bowls. He carefully selects his timber. Plans the shape he will turn and makes what he planned. His piercing and colouring isn't haphazard, it is carefully planned and the processes have been refined and perfected over years of practice.
The whole joke about catches and mistakes being design opportunities is only right up to a point. It is frustrating when you can't make the thing you are aiming for. With good practice and technique you can make anything you want and not just what you end up with after a couple of hours turning.
It all boils down to quality at the end if the day. If you want to sell your work and get a decent return for it then you need to produce a quality product. Every thing after this becomes easier. If we present a low quality product to the outside world that us how they will see us.
Rant over.... For now
Cheers
Richard
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On the whole I agree with Richard, America is a far larger market for all things wood, just look at the cabinet making side of things.
That said I`ve seen the following type of quote many times & just don`t think it relates.
The biggest problem for turning is that for every exceptional turner there will be 50 or 100 making s*#t. I believe this comes from 2 places. The first is that people try to sell their work before they are really ready to. You've made 10 bowls, given a few away as gifts now what? Sell them!
The 2 cafes I frequent have painted pictures on their walls, all by local artists, non of them very good & that reflects in the price they are being sold for. Does this affect the prices of top quality art done by professional artists?......No
Quite the opposite, seeing rubbish work only makes people appreciate quality work when they see it. It`s the same in many things in life, how do you know what is truly good if you have not seen bad ?
Many crafts have origins in practical needs, as the practical needs died back due to modernization, industrialization & change over the years those needs turned into the crafts we see today. I think the main reason craft work struggles to realize the prices it deserves is because of this fact & the only way to change this is to change the publics perception of what we do.
I imagine there`s a hand weaving forum somewhere & the members are bemoaning their lack of income due to similar concerns.
Cheers.
Doug.
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Doug...I agree so strongly with you, and I must admit that I was a rather offended by Richard's inference that there are exceptional turners, and there are those who produce 's*#t'. Surely to goodness, there are many of us out here who produce work of a high quality which deserves a wider audience of appreciation. We may not aspire to be the 'exceptional' turners that Richard refers to and we may not have the highly developed tool-control skills that he refers to, but we take our time and we make good pieces of work.
This rather reminds me of a recent thread in which a member praised me for having mastered a tool-skill, which he then described as being an essential skill; Mark Sanger then intereved to state that the tool skill is not essential; rather it is the willingness and ability to achieve the quality of finish that befits a quality piece of work that is important. I'm with Mark on this one!
Oh and David, sorry, but we seem to have hijacked your thread - I wonder what Binh Pho would make of the discussion!
Les
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Hi Les
Apologies if you were offended. Clearly I wasn't talking about anyone specific (perhaps not as clearly as I thought) just based on a number of experiences I have had. There are of course many levels that we find our selves at between 's#*t' and 'Master'. I would also point out that I am one of those guilty of selling work before I was ready, and for too little money. Perhaps it's all just part of the leaning curve.
Doug, I totally hear you and can also appreciate this angle.
I think one of the biggest problems faced by turners who want to be taken seriously as artists is the image of woodturning. If I had a few quid every time someone came to my workshop and said something along the lines of 'oh, I was expecting someone older!' It would probably explain it well. I know of a couple of artistic turners that no longer describe themselves as Woodturners but as 'Multi-media Artists' or similar, just to try to shake off the image and 'sex it up' as the papers would say.
I would also point out here that I am not an artistic turner and have no ambition to be one, so I am not referring to myself at any point above!!
Not sure there's much that can be done about the age thing though, it's just the demographic of turning, and I'm told this is true here and in the US....
Cheers
Richard
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Doug...I agree so strongly with you, and I must admit that I was a rather offended by Richard's inference that there are exceptional turners, and there are those who produce 's*#t'. Surely to goodness, there are many of us out here who produce work of a high quality which deserves a wider audience of appreciation. We may not aspire to be the 'exceptional' turners that Richard refers to and we may not have the highly developed tool-control skills that he refers to, but we take our time and we make good pieces of work.
This rather reminds me of a recent thread in which a member praised me for having mastered a tool-skill, which he then described as being an essential skill; Mark Sanger then intereved to state that the tool skill is not essential; rather it is the willingness and ability to achieve the quality of finish that befits a quality piece of work that is important. I'm with Mark on this one!
Oh and David, sorry, but we seem to have hijacked your thread - I wonder what Binh Pho would make of the discussion!
Les
Windy ... Les, don't be sorry, so far the comments have been valid.
We need to remember at grass roots we've all started at the same point in turning at some time, the beginning, so the view is to encourage new turners, aid and assist with how they can impove their work, in stead of as it has happened and someone was run off by comments, that's one we know of, how many others don't or will not post for the same reason .. As with anything else we've done in life, eg, we never drove straight off from the first we got in a car... it took time and practice .. The Test .. and some still lack the component skills .. As Turners we all have separate abilities and for most a niche in what we do ... Has or could Binh Pho turn newels/spindles as Richard does .. no more than Richard would have turned a Binh form.
It's how we as turners' portray woodturning and act towards fellow Turners with encouragement, we're all turner's if not all equal, together that will change may be in time, the Galleries and public view of wood in whatever form it takes... or then we're just oldish men in sheds making bits n bobs.
Cheers David
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I have just done a show where I was demonstrating and offered people to have a go and make their own mushroom or top for a small fee. All the takers were young, youngest was 13, or female and said that they had never done it nor had they realised they could. I learned in school as did many of us older turners but few schools teach it anymore because of H&S. One of the things that is perhaps needed is the publicity of wood turning clubs where people can come and try for themselves. Any club that has insured turners and / or registered turners could do this surely?
Pete
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Well done on getting turning out there, Pete,
It is the lack today of Schools teaching anything of Woodwork/Metalwork other than theory, then our teacher at school may not have been a turner, our's did Technical Drawing as well.
The first Local Club I found by an ad in the local paper, was Cannock Chase Turners who host an annual event on a somewhat small scale and offer the viewing public hands on tasters. This years will be .. http://www.patmac.talktalk.net/hot.html (http://www.patmac.talktalk.net/hot.html) .. Lets hope to hear from more as doing the same, as it is to get publicity of wood turning and where possible to attend and if not take an active part, see it in action and come away with a piece or two ...
Many events are aim at the turner and maybe not so much on what the general public may find or know as being of interest to them, all food for thought.
Cheers David
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I normally pass a comment on this subject and end up being hung,drawn and quartered so here goes again from a turner already in shreds ;)
I find David's comment about Richard turning a Binh Pho form disturbing. And this reflects the lack of understanding between turners of differing ability. Richard is a professional turner, the difference between him and hobby turners is if he was asked to make a copy of something, even a Binh Pho style piece, he would be capable of doing so, out of professional courtesy he may choose not to make it rather than upset the design's originator, and this holds true for the vast majority of professional turners.(Myself included)
With professional turners the answer is nearly always yes and the quality which encompasses shape,style design and finish goes without saying. Other turners however may lack the knowledge to produce an article of a certain quality, this should be attributed to ignorance(in the nicest way) caused by lack of experience. Experience is only gained by working at the object in question, in this case turning. Every piece you make should be the best piece you have ever made or you are not" gaining the knowledge".
It is all well and good turning out a shabby piece of work and calling it rustic but it should be realised that the original rustic was very well made for it's time or a lot of work had been put into it to make it look rustic and not just badly turned.
We all need to raise our game and seek just rewards for what we have made, would you offer a mechanic fifteen quid for 2 or 3 hours work? Try it and see how well your car runs afterwards.
We all try to give positive feed back on this forum and I think we all want the quality of turned work in the UK to improve in quality, otherwise why are you all on this site? And I think we all want our own work to improve or be different or make a mark somehow and this is the way that it will work, and in the process those at the top,not necessarily professional turners but those producing quality work, will realise the prices that should be paid and those that aspire to be quality turners, which IMHO should be all turners, will raise their own game, even subconsciously, and so raise the overall standard again.
Rant over, I've put me head in the noose now pull it tight ;D
Regards
John BHT
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I normally pass a comment on this subject and end up being hung,drawn and quartered so here goes again from a turner already in shreds ;)
I find David's comment about Richard turning a Binh Pho form disturbing. And this reflects the lack of understanding between turners of differing ability. Richard is a professional turner, the difference between him and hobby turners is if he was asked to make a copy of something, even a Binh Pho style piece, he would be capable of doing so, out of professional courtesy he may choose not to make it rather than upset the design's originator, and this holds true for the vast majority of professional turners.(Myself included)
With professional turners the answer is nearly always yes and the quality which encompasses shape,style design and finish goes without saying. Other turners however may lack the knowledge to produce an article of a certain quality, this should be attributed to ignorance(in the nicest way) caused by lack of experience. Experience is only gained by working at the object in question, in this case turning. Every piece you make should be the best piece you have ever made or you are not" gaining the knowledge".
It is all well and good turning out a shabby piece of work and calling it rustic but it should be realised that the original rustic was very well made for it's time or a lot of work had been put into it to make it look rustic and not just badly turned.
We all need to raise our game and seek just rewards for what we have made, would you offer a mechanic fifteen quid for 2 or 3 hours work? Try it and see how well your car runs afterwards.
We all try to give positive feed back on this forum and I think we all want the quality of turned work in the UK to improve in quality, otherwise why are you all on this site? And I think we all want our own work to improve or be different or make a mark somehow and this is the way that it will work, and in the process those at the top,not necessarily professional turners but those producing quality work, will realise the prices that should be paid and those that aspire to be quality turners, which IMHO should be all turners, will raise their own game, even subconsciously, and so raise the overall standard again.
Rant over, I've put me head in the noose now pull it tight ;D
Regards
John BHT
John, good to hear from you and it will be safe to say, you'll live to fight another day, well a good few more..
I'd not lacked to understand the differing ability between turners, some specialize in just one or two forms. I view Richard as an exceptional turner, able to turn his hand to anything as we well read in Woodturning.
The but and Oh yes here we have it, the professional and hobbyist the great divide in are turning, it may have been so .. when I started in the 90's, it was only the shows where turning was show cased, today the advance of the internet we've more chance as we do to view exceptional work, dare I say as much from hobbyist .... Woodworks@Daventry.. highlights the skills at Club level or the AWGB Display table of this year with members work, you and myself had pieces on there ...
The greater number of members and turners are now hobbyists and with America maybe this is the whole there and how we differ from over there and view the hobby turner ... these are the face and future of woodturning and there is a need for them, lets inspire them to improve in quality and not run them off, and yes there are the Members Development Programmes, but it's hoped advances can be made on here.
So 500+ now signed up, lets start seeing your work and yes I'm one too .. for the occasional pieces produced, very much part time as this job goes at the moment, am I a hobbyist after 17yrs .. pending Tax form reads Woodturner.... :o ...
Cheers David
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Hi David
I'm not sure about this 'great divide' you speak of. I'm not sure it even exists?
By suggesting there is a great divide, it gives the impression that the world of the professional is a closed door where the secrets of turning are concealed from the amateur. In my experience the reality couldn't be further from the truth. The woodturning community is one of the most open and friendly there is. The vast majority of pros spend a great deal if their time teaching, demonstrating, writing and generally preaching woodturning. The aim of all this is to improve turning in the UK. I think everyone agrees that by doing this it benefits everyone.
The biggest difference, certainly from my point of view, is the time a hobbyist can spend on a job. For example, if I spend 3 weeks working on a masterpiece, I would need to sell it for £3000 and it would HAVE to sell. If it broke at the end or if it didn't turn out how I wanted I couldn't just put it on the fire and make another, without selling it for double.... You see the problem. As a hobbyist with another income, you can spend the time a job deserves to get it just right. That's the difference, and that's why, as you rightly say, much of the 'boundary pushing' is done by hobbyists...
Surely everyone is working toward the same goal: improving turning and QUALITY
Richard
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Hi David
I'm not sure about this 'great divide' you speak of. I'm not sure it even exists?
By suggesting there is a great divide, it gives the impression that the world of the professional is a closed door where the secrets of turning are concealed from the amateur. In my experience the reality couldn't be further from the truth. The woodturning community is one of the most open and friendly there is. The vast majority of pros spend a great deal if their time teaching, demonstrating, writing and generally preaching woodturning. The aim of all this is to improve turning in the UK. I think everyone agrees that by doing this it benefits everyone.
The biggest difference, certainly from my point of view, is the time a hobbyist can spend on a job. For example, if I spend 3 weeks working on a masterpiece, I would need to sell it for £3000 and it would HAVE to sell. If it broke at the end or if it didn't turn out how I wanted I couldn't just put it on the fire and make another, without selling it for double.... You see the problem. As a hobbyist with another income, you can spend the time a job deserves to get it just right. That's the difference, and that's why, as you rightly say, much of the 'boundary pushing' is done by hobbyists...
Surely everyone is working toward the same goal: improving turning and QUALITY
Richard
I agree 100% Richard. Some of the best turners in the world are arguably 'hobbyist' turners for the very reasons you have mentioned. The biggest gripe many of us have is more that some turners (hobbyist, professional or semi) try and sell work that is substandard or at ridiculous prices and so give Joe Public a wrong impression. I was talking to a man I know who has been in marketing most of his life the other evening and he said that the main problem was that most turners he knows undersell, they charge far to little thus demeaning the product. He picked on my work and reckoned that I ought to be selling it at at least twice the price I charge and I have what I think of as sensible prices but like most of us I tend to see the faults, the mistakes etc etc. maybe we have a low impression of what we do and that is reflected in the things we do. You are in a niche market and so can have fixed, sensible prices but the moment you make more artistic items it is a whole different ball game. At the Oak Fair on Saturday there were a number of turners of both extremes, one selling work at up to £700 a piece and another selling decent quality bowls in spalted wood for £15. if what we do is quality work we should have quality prices and a quality attitude to what we do.
Pete
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David apologies, we all seem to have hijacked your thread again!
On a positive note, I attended a youth training event at the weekend, the ages ranged from about 11/12 to 17/18yo. Some of the younger ones there were having their first or nearly first taste of turning and some of the older ones had experience. The enthusiasm from the young people taking part was refreshing to say the least but also the enthusiasm from the tutors,most of who I guess were on the wrong side of.....I'll leave it there!
There was some very good quality work on show, produced by these people who are the future of the craft, and it was heartwarming to see that they were not just copying, they had new and refreshing ideas of their own, this is what we need and this is the group that will eventually change the face of woodturning, how it is seen by joe public and it will be them and others like them that will hold us up as the dinosaurs of the craft in years to come, I for one can't wait.
Exciting times for woodturning with the anticipation of things to come,new ideas and concepts. To paraphrase a well know TV presenter"woodturning doesn't get better than this!"
Regards
John BHT
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John, that is brilliant. There are people who, when exposed to wood turning, think it is great and hopefully will take it up via one of the clubs. if there is ever a chance to get involved in that sort of thing count me in. (I am also a qualified tutor if that helps LOL)
Pete
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Hi David
I'm not sure about this 'great divide' you speak of. I'm not sure it even exists?
By suggesting there is a great divide, it gives the impression that the world of the professional is a closed door where the secrets of turning are concealed from the amateur. In my experience the reality couldn't be further from the truth. The woodturning community is one of the most open and friendly there is. The vast majority of pros spend a great deal if their time teaching, demonstrating, writing and generally preaching woodturning. The aim of all this is to improve turning in the UK. I think everyone agrees that by doing this it benefits everyone.
The biggest difference, certainly from my point of view, is the time a hobbyist can spend on a job. For example, if I spend 3 weeks working on a masterpiece, I would need to sell it for £3000 and it would HAVE to sell. If it broke at the end or if it didn't turn out how I wanted I couldn't just put it on the fire and make another, without selling it for double.... You see the problem. As a hobbyist with another income, you can spend the time a job deserves to get it just right. That's the difference, and that's why, as you rightly say, much of the 'boundary pushing' is done by hobbyists...
Surely everyone is working toward the same goal: improving turning and QUALITY
Richard
Hi Richard, It maybe more the biggest difference is in the time factor, then it can be a surprise as to how fast some hobbyists have become .. the word hobbyist has something about it .. is not that following J. R. R. Tolkien .. any form of woodturning is a profession and carried out as such, not only for the professional, but it's a vocation founded upon training and skills and we're all always learning something new, which yes is being passed on .. but we see few taking advantage of such on this Forum .. Why... is it few have time for the (hobbyist) novice, it's not the most active on here... the Forum is for everyone, we're all Turners.
And if it comes to pricing why not a £3000 piece, if we start asking higher price, other may value turning differently. It is we can all tend to spread work over a number weeks, it's likely to be many pieces at different stages are being done .. an who watches paint or a blank dry ..
David
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David apologies, we all seem to have hijacked your thread again!
On a positive note, I attended a youth training event at the weekend, the ages ranged from about 11/12 to 17/18yo. Some of the younger ones there were having their first or nearly first taste of turning and some of the older ones had experience. The enthusiasm from the young people taking part was refreshing to say the least but also the enthusiasm from the tutors,most of who I guess were on the wrong side of.....I'll leave it there!
There was some very good quality work on show, produced by these people who are the future of the craft, and it was heartwarming to see that they were not just copying, they had new and refreshing ideas of their own, this is what we need and this is the group that will eventually change the face of woodturning, how it is seen by joe public and it will be them and others like them that will hold us up as the dinosaurs of the craft in years to come, I for one can't wait.
Exciting times for woodturning with the anticipation of things to come,new ideas and concepts. To paraphrase a well know TV presenter"woodturning doesn't get better than this!"
Regards
John BHT
No apologies needed John, it's all valid, and well done that man on a good job, it's happening but even fewer get to hear that it is, or are we missing it elsewhere and not seeing it on the Forum, it is the place for Turners and such activities.
When will we be viewed as in the States as a body of Turners.
David
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I think one of the ways of changing the face of turning is to find a less seemingly derogatory term for occasional turners.
The term"amateur" always conjures up a not too well made item(well if the cap fits)
The term"hobbyist" tells me that the person is not really taking it seriously.
The term "novice" says someone new to it.
I also know that the term "professional" should conjure up an image of perfection and sometimes that too can be misleading.
I wonder if the best way forward would be not to specify the ability of the turner when viewing each piece?
But then bad turning would be viewed in the same light as good turning. It is all so complicated it give s me a headache! :-[
Regards
John BHT
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There shouldn't be any stigma about being a hobby or amateur turner ideally. To me that just means that the turner does it mainly for fun not for a living whereas professional means that they do it to put bread on the table. Neither term should be a reflection on the quality of what is made, that should be judged by individual merit. Being professional doesn't mean that each thing made is perfect either. I know that there are things that I simply don't make and pass on to someone else because they can do it much better than I can. The only time i have a gripe against hobby or amateur turners are those who sell things off at silly prices 'to cover the cost of the materials' which IMHO just undermines the public view of the value of the work.
Pete
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Hi Richard, It maybe more the biggest difference is in the time factor, then it can be a surprise as to how fast some hobbyists have become .. the word hobbyist has something about it .. is not that following J. R. R. Tolkien .. any form of woodturning is a profession and carried out as such, not only for the professional, but it's a vocation founded upon training and skills and we're all always learning something new, which yes is being passed on .. but we see few taking advantage of such on this Forum .. Why... is it few have time for the (hobbyist) novice, it's not the most active on here... the Forum is for everyone, we're all Turners.
And if it comes to pricing why not a £3000 piece, if we start asking higher price, other may value turning differently. It is we can all tend to spread work over a number weeks, it's likely to be many pieces at different stages are being done .. an who watches paint or a blank dry ..
David
Hi David
I'm not sure what's wrong with the term hobbyist? (definitely not Hobbitist ;) ) as an example, my hobby is cricket. I'm not bad at it actually but I'm under no illusions that anyone would pay to watch me play. I am certainly a cricket hobbyist and in no way professional. If woodturning is your hobby then by definition you are a hobbyist.
Cheers
Richard
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I've been following this with interest, but until now have not made any attempt to add to the discussion, but...
There is an old saying that goes something like;
‘An amateur artist is one who works to support his passion,
Whereas a professional artist is one who’s wife works to support his passion.’
Of course it could be the other way around for the sexes.
But on a serious note, one of the events I attend, there is an artist (painter) who sells little more than ‘Splodge on Canvas’ at a cost that must barely cover the canvas, never mind the paint or his time. So it is not just Woodturners, it is a general thing for ‘budding artists’ to undervalue their work and from what I’ve heard of the great masters (Van Gogh included) they were all as bad.
Here is one story of mine; About 4 weeks ago I walked into a shop (not a true gallery). I spied a wooden pot so walked over and examined it, then burst out laughing. The lady proprietor asked what was so funny, so I explained that the wooden pot was made of ceramic. Yes she agreed. So I showed her some of my work, where I stain and polish wood so it looks like ceramic, nice, but no interest!
Question:
Considering some of the things put forward as art (unmade bed, mantelpiece with bars of part used soap, pile of bricks) has any wooden art been submitted to competitions like the Turner Prize? Personally I look to turning innovators like the Mark’s (Hancock & Sanger) to step forward and show what can be achieved.
Hobbiest and Amateurs are acceptable in the world of Art, it is the level of skill that is recognised.
So until we force ourselves into the eye of the countries ‘Disposable Income Public’ as an art form we will continue to be invisible to collectors as creators of Art in the UK.
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Mark Sanger's wall springs to mind.
Regards
John BHT
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....http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_artist.htm (http://shadowoftheturning.com/the_artist.htm) .... Binh, as with so many others in the forefront of American Woodturning as a form, from wood are refering to themselves as Artists, do the vast amount of fellow American Woodturners view themselves as such.. How do they class one another with regards to levels of skill.
Should we be defined as Artists and or Craftsmen, how would we find a Woodturner for architectural, antique restoration and bespoke work if we did..
As with our forefathers in the past, are we now Mechanised Bodgers and still a Craft ... if we can define ourselves singularly and above all the quality of Woodturning, not just as a Craft, but Art Form ... maybe the Galleries, Museums and Buying Public will accept Wood beyond Bowls and Kitchen Treenware... which are cheap as chips from any Store, but are they even selling.
There are those who do get work into Galleries and many others try .. but at most we present our work at best where we can personally, a Craftshow, Club event or Market stall etc... all good, but for everyone it's to be mindful as always ... quality and price... something we can all work towards through this Forum .. if used properly .. or used at all... lets see some work, read some comments.. people.. make this Forum happen, be buzzy.
Enjoy whatever it is that we our .. Your woodturning.
Cheers David
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I am not really a fan of Bihn's work. I appreciate the skill required but it just doesn't excite me as much as simpler forms.
As I view other turners work from the R&B to the coloured and carved to try and understand form and finish I have not been disappointed with the UK turners input. The American market is very different to the UK market which is again different to the Australian market. I enjoy reading the articles in The Woodturning Magazine on over seas turners so I can see what the rest of the world is up too.
Turning is a traditional craft which is routed in its practical applications making things with and for a purpose which is a skilled art. It is never and should not want to shrug this image of as it is very important.
What is now making the woodturning arena more diverse is the turners making thing just for decorative purposes, these artists would probably give themselves a better chance by calling themselves multi media artists and breaking from the stereotype of what people think woodturners are and do.
I respect both camps the skills Richard has in his production turning I admire as much as Mark's eye for the creative.
Diversity is what will keep woodturning as a hobby and profession growing.
Just my rambling thoughts
Paul