AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bryan Milham on April 13, 2014, 10:50:45 AM
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Sorry, this is going to be a bit lengthy getting to the question, I need to explain my starting point first.
Background
Stuck as I am with this pot on my leg I was watching TV the other day (one of the obscure channels) and there was a programme where the presenters had to compete using technology against professionals who work by hand.
I missed the first part but the second was a computer controlled arm painting a portrait of the presenter Vs an artist,
The second was a ceramic bowl computer created Vs a potter that uses the hand thrown technique. Here I really got interested.
The Crux
The judge immediately identified the difference between the two manufacture methods and while not discounting the ability to mass produce and perfectly replicate the manufactured bowl, she could see the hand of creativity in the hand thrown bowl and even with its imperfections, much preferred it.
Yes our work is easily identifiable as handmade, although I'm sure like many of you I do get asked ‘did you make this?’, but…
… with Mark Sanger having led the way for us into the Wabi Sabi field, and Pete’s statement from his display at Yandles,
Was really encouraged by peoples comments and attitude to my 'wabi sabi' pieces on display, wasn't sure how all those woodies would take to wood with splits and holes but there were a lot of encouraging comments as well as enquirers about tuition and demonstrating at clubs.
And again from Richard Ellsworth (Page 208 of his book 'Ellsworth on Woodturning) 'Once I have brought the surface to a point where I like what I see, I'm finished. That might mean there's no sanding on the surface at all, as with a heavily spalted piece of wood, or a piece of white oak I want to have a course, sandpapery look like that of a raku pot.'
The Question
Do we, mostly as amateurs, sometimes try too hard for perfection in our work, especially some of the finely sanded and wonderful finishes we see displayed on some of the work in this forum. Should we not more often let the wood speak for itself in how we finish (or end our work on) it…
…or am I just blowing in the wind
Discuss.
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Perfection of finish depends on two things in my opinion.
1 What effect are you trying to achieve? Ceramic like finish rustic, worm, aged as with my wabi sabi work, textured as with wire brushed oak
2 Who or what use is the piece going to be for?
I don't think that there is any excuse for the casual, tool marked or sanding marked finish that we all produce initially and it just shows either a lack of skill or care. A good finish is not about having a perfectly smooth finish however but does mean that the piece should be pleasing to both the eye and the touch. I have a couple of pieces I have made that were so badly spalted that sanding back to a 1000 has not achieved a perfectly uniformly smooth finish but has a rippled feel to it. I am happy with that personally as it is natural.Don't ask me why but natural holes and fissures in a piece don't bother me whereas ones that come about through accident or bad workmanship do though they can often be re worked and made into features. I understand that with some oriental artists and craftsmen if a piece is perfect they will deliberately create some sort of minor 'fault in it to show that it is in fact handmade. When I finally polish my pieces I allow the wood to dictate what the finish will be. Different woods will polish to a different degree of gloss, yew for example can have an amazing mirror like gloss from just buffing whereas oak seems to have more of a satin like finish. I don't try to achieve a super gloss on everything.
So, for me tool marks (unless deliberate as in texturing,) sanding marks etc are niot usually acceptable but natural defects and variations in the surface are.
Hope this makes sense LOL
Pete
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Hello Bryan,
I hope the ankle is starting to heal now. I agree to some extent with Pete's comments but also think that all woods could be finished to a high gloss regardless of species or spalting or sponginess. What the answer should be is what finish do you want? I know in this country we do not like the very high gloss that is seen on work from America but to achieve that level of gloss (assuming it is blemish free) will take a great deal of work and skill. That is not to say that to achieve a (e.g.)wire brushed finish that the same level of work and skill is not needed. I agree with Pete that poorly made and finished work such as those with tool or sanding marks should be regarded as substandard. Think of shabby chic, to best get that effect (IMO) you need a well finished item and then distress it to the level you require as what you are trying to emulate is a well made item that has aged, so no real short cuts. But look at a wire brushed pot for example, once all of the tooling marks have been removed there is no need to "put a gloss" on it and actually that is probably the last thing you want is bits of gloss and although you are basically incising a pattern (or non-pattern) I feel you still need the overall effect to be even and not "lumpy".
So to get to your question...."Do we, mostly as amateurs, sometimes try too hard for perfection in our work, especially some of the finely sanded and wonderful finishes we see displayed on some of the work in this forum. Should we not more often let the wood speak for itself in how we finish (or end our work on) it…" I think turners should learn how to achieve a good finish, by that I mean nicely turned ,sanded and polished, before they start to look at other ways of finishing it. I think it is part of the learning process. (I also think that those that put sub-standard work up for sale at craft fairs and put it up cheap should have bricks thrown at them.. but that is a different debate altogether) ;D ;D ;D
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Pete,
I'm not talking about poor workmanship, rather the opposite. Excellent workmanship finished in a way that gives a more natural or casual feel to it.
I hope the ankle is starting to heal now.
(I also think that those that put sub-standard work up for sale at craft fairs and put it up cheap should have bricks thrown at them.. but that is a different debate altogether)
John, Lets say I've stopped feeling like passing out - the swelling is going down, the bruising is looking better and I'm looking forward to a lightweight cast next week.
I agree about the sub-standard work, at one of the events I attend there are 2 pen turners, one's work is excellent and priced accordingly, the other, eh... lets say he covers the cost of his kits and leave it at that!
No, I'm trying to think beyond that.
The grand old gentleman who taught me to turn (and one of the founder members of the AWGB) showed me a piece he'd been given. Turned well, fine shape and all that, then the maker had textured it with the tang of a file, or so I was told, it certainly looked like it had been. Why? - because he could.
Now look on page 10 of this month's (April 14) Woodturning Mag, 5 bowls by Richard Raffan, no one is going to say he's not one of the world top turners, and we can see the artistic ability in creating them, but how to describe the finish, not sanded within an inch of it's life or polished to a gloss you can see your face in...
But they look right, they sit in the eye well.
So at what point do we decide that this wonderful piece we've produced can be improved by 'taking away' from it instead of adding more?
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I think this comes down to " do you plan what you are making or get what you end up with?" I think in the early days most of us were quite happy just to end up with a bit of wood that was round, or nearly round in some cases so there was no thought to finish until it had been turned to within an inch of its life.
I will still occasionally just stick a bit of wood on the lathe and "muck about" with no thought to shape ,design , finish or whatever (some say that's all I do anyway) but normally I will know what I am I making and what finish will be applied to it. If I know that ,then I will know if there are any embellishments like using the tang of an old file ( ???) or whatever.
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I know that pretty much any wood can be given a high gloss finish but I personally don't believe that we should so much strive to achieve that as to get something that looks natural if the wood itself is meant to be the finish as opposed to a piece that is painted. As John is saying though, I firmly believe that before we try and get a worn, rustic or weathered look be it through texturing or some other means we need to learn to get that perfect clean finish. Using colour or texture to hide a poorly finished piece is not really a good thing in my opinion though there have been occasions where I (and no doubt many of us) have been known to texture something in order to hide a fault I cannot for some reason eradicate. Some, like me, try to get a natural looking finish whereas others prefer the almost ceramic glossy finish. Both are good and not easy to achieve
Pete
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I joined this forum at a time when there was a lot of (heated!) debate about the quality of some members' work, especially some that was being posted in the gallery. At the time, it made me think twice about posting images of a number of items that I'd made, because marks like tear-out and bruising were present, even if only in small amounts. Back then I thought that a few established members were being rather harsh, and I still think that, in just a few cases, the criticism was flying without it being particularly constructive. However.....it made me think twice and I know that I learnt a lot from it. In the interim period, and until such time as my tool-skills improve, I'll still get the odd tear and bruise, but I'll do my damn best to putting the extra effort into the sanding, even if it does take a ridiculously long time on some projects.
As for the degree of shine, frankly, I think that it's a matter of personal taste. I don't like high gloss and I don't strive to achieve it. In many cases I believe that it detracts from the form because the reflections take over from the form, especially in photographs.
Les
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What an interesting topic, having recently read somewhere about a professional turner who has a favorite finish that they always use because what they turn is utility pieces, I guess part of what determines the choice of finish is the purpose of the piece.
With the more artist pieces I guess the finish is considered at the point of conception and development.
What ever the finish is it should be completed to the best of your ability
Just my thought
Paul
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I too think this is an interesting topic. Les you say that sometimes it takes ages to sand, have you tried sheer scraping?It can be done with a skew but personally I prefer a square ground scraper rotated to almost vertical at times, you get what I call (when I am demonstrating) fairy shavings. They are fine and light and are removed very gently without causing trauma to the wood surface. Just a thought.
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I too think this is an interesting topic. Les you say that sometimes it takes ages to sand, have you tried sheer scraping?It can be done with a skew but personally I prefer a square ground scraper rotated to almost vertical at times, you get what I call (when I am demonstrating) fairy shavings. They are fine and light and are removed very gently without causing trauma to the wood surface. Just a thought.
I'll give it a go, John.....does it work with a round-nosed scraper on the inside of a concave curve?
Les
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Very interesting stuff. I've been complimented and criticised in equal measure for being quite technical with my turning. I'm not an artistic turner and make no claim to being such. The thing is, I believe that having the ability to finish an item to high gloss is important, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
High gloss, used correctly and done well, will sell. Fact. But not everything should be high gloss. Pete's work for example, with his rustic edge, call it what you like, but wouldn't look right as high gloss. A bit of contrast is good but high gloss with bark and splits may be too much.
It's a case of the right finish for the job in hand. Being able to choose and achieve what you set out to achieve is really the key, I think.
Cheers
Richard
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interesting topic,the finnish/shine I put on my work always depends on the look of the finnished turning,I`ve tried shiny on some things (clear lacquer),never been happy with it,always looks to plasticy to me (personal Opinion ),some stuff looks good shiny,Ebony spindlework comes to mind here,or African Blackwood,other pieces you would think look good shiny,look terrible and you have to re-finnish them with a muted sheen,I`ve just made a teak bowl,I tried oiling it,it looked terrible,so got out the meths,(No I didn`t drink it in desperation ),took all the oil of again,let it dry over night and used a buffing wheel to put put Carnuba wax on it,looked alot better with a waxy sheen,then theres the painted finnishes,do you give them a coat of shiny lacquer or satin/matt,I think in the end it depends on the actual piece,and the turners preffered finnishing tecnique,cheers,
Eric.
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An interesting question, for me the finish quality is fairly high. Its all about consistency by that I mean if its a suede finish then is must be uniform all over etc. Free of all lumps, bumps, scratches or what ever that is not part of the desired finish.
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I came in to woodturning last November after a two day turning course run by an old fellow called Tom Pockley he is a RPT member and 73 years old. On that two day course he told me he did not like scrapers and one should be able to achieve a finish with a gouge that would not need very much sanding, he teaches that the final cut must be done with a freshly sharpen tool and if you cock-it-up you resharpen the tool.
When I set up my workshop and started turning at the end of December this was embedded in my mind, so my work is finished by gouge unless the piece is to deep or now I've moved on a bit a hollow form. But the basic principals are the same I aim to get as clean & crisp a finish as I can with the tools in my hands, if I do get a catch then I just carry-on turning with the gouge to remove any mark. I sand to 400 if I'm going to oil the piece and 600 if waxing.
I have an array of oils and waxes and it depends on the grain patten to what I use, I won't use something just to cover up poor turning.
Fundamentally when I turn something I aim to finish the piece to a standard that I would be happy to buy myself if I saw it and like it and if the wood or my turning is that bad it becomes fuel for the log burner.
Ed
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"Fundamentally when I turn something I aim to finish the piece to a standard that I would be happy to buy myself if I saw it and like it and if the wood or my turning is that bad it becomes fuel for the log burner.
Ed"
Wise words indeed from some one who is new to turning.
Hopefully many more who are new to turning will develop a similar approach.
Now how can we change the views of others who have been turning for some time?!
Nick Arnull.RPT.
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Most of my work ( hollow vessels ) is finished to 600 grit and a couple of coats of finishing oil, mainly to a satin /semi gloss sheen which is also durable , I find wax finishes although very glossy , are not very durable and spoil easily , they can look good at point of sale but go dull faster than an oil finish especially when handled much . A high gloss finish is often associated with high quality craftsmanship, items such as fine dining tables . pianos etc , but just because it is glossy it is not high quality ! It can also look plastic like rather than woody On occasion I use a matt finish but these do not seem to sell so well ,also a textured or sand blasted piece can not really be polished and these too seem to have a limited appeal .
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Thanks Nick
I don't think you can teach people the quality of finish, it's a desire and what looks good to one person can be completely different to another, we all have our own standards.
I was once told by someone that I respected that if a fool tells you you are clever, are you that clever?
So your level should be better than the rest, this of course is impossible.
In my case my desire is to be a better turner than I was a furniture maker, to be better turner than the guy selling his wares next to me, to understand what I'm trying to achieve and once I fully understand that pass it on to the next person.
My desire will drive my finish, my finish will drive my desire to improve.
My target is to be a RPT member before I die, and I am looking forward to the day that I know enough to help another.
But I dont think you can teach desire.
Ed
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Ed:
Not sure that I totally agree with your last post.
I think understanding can only be achieved through growth and ongoing awareness, Time and open education are a great way ahead but if we are to open we need to be careful.
I am able to teach many methods of finish to student ,it is to be seen if they will be able to do so alone,the type of finish used is subjective and relative to what is trying to be achieved I can apply a finish to timber that cannot be seen but I can assure you it is,it is time that teaches a maker to use the right finish for the right job its application can be taught.
Your desire to become a member of the RPT is to be encouraged and applauded.
I would like to point out that the RPT selection process has undergone a major review earlier and will in future will be carried out in a more stringent manner,for more details I would recommend contacting the register when you feel you are ready to apply.
Your comment regarding desire I do agree with, it cannot be taught but it can be fostered, helped even pushed in a specific direction.
You may find it of interest to look at a thread started over on the Woodworker instate regarding "Image posting and critique".
6 pages 110 comments and 3596 views and the thread is still rolling and is/has been extremely interesting and stimulating.
http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14919&PN=1&title=critique-and-image-posting
Nick Arnull. RPT.
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Thanks again Nick I'll take a look at the thread later tonight
Ed