AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: windfall on February 20, 2019, 05:14:01 PM
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I'm attempting to get more overhead's and time focused and cutting down on wasted materials, I have now loads of different grits, and know there are always times you might need a particular one.
But I'm trying to get to the point where I use sandpaper etc more efficiently.. so the question is, sanding dry hardwood what 3 grits would you use if that's all you could buy. Also i finish most things with Yorkshire Grit.
I'll buy the one's recommended in a roll - so cutting down on costs.. that's why I'm asking :)
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Are you actually achieving savings using just 3 grits? by using more grades for a shorter time, surely doesn't work out any more expensive than using 3 grits for longer?
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Are you actually achieving savings using just 3 grits? by using more grades for a shorter time, surely doesn't work out any more expensive than using 3 grits for longer?
Agreed but I want to know what people would use so I can buy them in bulk lower the overhead
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I think that the concept of buying only three grits is fundamentally flawed. The starting point for your coarsest grit, is the finish that you get off your tool. There are experienced turners whose toolwork is good enough to be able to start working with 240 grit....ok, many of us achieve this very occasionally, but rarely, I guess. On the other hand, my experience tells me that many, many turners start with 120 grit.
The finishing point also varies. Many of us sand to 400 grit, following which I use 600 or 1000 Nyweb pads when I feel that they're needed, especially on dense woods like blackwood and yew, with which the finest of scratches from 400 grit often remain visible.
So, with there being variation between starting point and finishing point, it would be foolish to limit yourself to just 3 grits. Don't fall into the trap of believing that you can skip a grit, i.e. going from 120 straight to 240, it just doesn't work. What "Wooddust" has written is very valid.....there will not be a saving by limiting yourself to 3 grits, and it won't work anyway.
Les
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I think that the concept of buying only three grits is fundamentally flawed. The starting point for your coarsest grit, is the finish that you get off your tool. There are experienced turners whose toolwork is good enough to be able to start working with 240 grit....ok, many of us achieve this very occasionally, but rarely, I guess. On the other hand, my experience tells me that many, many turners start with 120 grit.
The finishing point also varies. Many of us sand to 400 grit, following which I use 600 or 1000 Nyweb pads when I feel that they're needed, especially on dense woods like blackwood and yew, with which the finest of scratches from 400 grit often remain visible.
So, with there being variation between starting point and finishing point, it would be foolish to limit yourself to just 3 grits. Don't fall into the trap of believing that you can skip a grit, i.e. going from 120 straight to 240, it just doesn't work. What "Wooddust" has written is very valid.....there will not be a saving by limiting yourself to 3 grits, and it won't work anyway.
Les
Ok I tak eon board what you say - maybe reword the question - What are the 3 main grits you use the most of?
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Ok I tak eon board what you say - maybe reword the question - What are the 3 main grits you use the most of?
....OK....but I still can't give a straight answer. I guess my single "main grit" is the first grit that I use, which removes minor tool marks and blemishes. That is usually 120 grit. Following that, I use 180/240/320/400 every time. Thus I can state my main grit, but I couldn't state which are my 3 main grits.
Les
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I know I will get ribbed but I have in stock 60grit right through to 600grit. But like many, I will start at whatever finish I get off of the tool anywhere between 120 to 240grit. The 60grit is not for turning by the way.
Buying in rolls start with 120 grit and take the first three from there to start with then buy the next grits from there up to at least 400grit
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Fine , medium and coarse ;D ;D ;D
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As the man said, don’t know which one, use sandpaper like someone else is paying for it 😁
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ok i'm a production turner but i sort of only have 3 grits anyway.
100, 180, 320.
if i do turn a bowl i start with a fresh bit of 180 then use a very worn bit of 180 then 320 then danish oil and buff.
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ok i'm a production turner but i sort of only have 3 grits anyway.
100, 180, 320.
if i do turn a bowl i start with a fresh bit of 180 then use a very worn bit of 180 then 320 then danish oil and buff.
Thanks sounds like a good set of grits to use..
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When sanding don't be tempted to miss a grit by using a worn out piece does not make it the next finer grit as you have already taken the cutting edges off of the grit and makes it useless.
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Worn 180 still leaves 180 scratches. False economy IMHO. As most are saying you can't have 3 main grits. I use 120 occasionally for woods that rip, or 'cos I left tool marks but if I want a really good finish I will go through the grits up to 600+ Like so many questions there is no single answer and what works for Steve wouldn't work for most of us., To save money ( I am a professional skinflint as well as turner) get a good load of every grit between 120 and 600 and use wisely. Each grit will (or should) remove the marks from the previous one so a quick flash should be enough once you have the initial sanding done.
Pete
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In my workshop I have a set of lengths... by the time I get down to 240 grit I am on the polish stage certainly 320 I only ever use less than half as much 600 onward's I am still using the rolls I bought 10 years ago as by that time they are in contact with the wood for seconds so it lasts forever... so your savings will come from the quantities rather than the grit type:-
I use:-
80 grit in small quantities while the wood is stationary for smoothing out natural effects I want to retain or emphasis, sort of a carving tool. So I buy that in sheets as and when.
120 is my final gouge for difficult wood, overly dried end grain etc, as well as second cut to the 80 grit features, as a cutting tool it needs to be sharp so I use a lot of it.
180 is my first finishing abrasive and will be used quite a bit by the time I have finished with the 180 I am just removing the scratches left by the abrasive.
240 second polish and depending on the finish required may be the final polish too. I need about half the quantity of 240 to 180.
320 & 400 about a quarter of 180
600 - 1200, 5 meters bought 10 years ago is still going strong.
Beyond that I use pads which have also lasted years.
I have all my rolls of abrasive on an old broom handle hung by the window in order...
Another tip BEFORE they get covered in dust I use a sharpie and write 1 2 3 etc on the backs as the printing soon becomes unreadable!
People often say never skip a grit, but seldom say why... so here is my attempt at why!
The point of abrasives is to reduce the scratch pattern of the previous abrasive until it is so small it looks polished (it actually will have a scratch pattern in it if looked at through a lens)
A good scratch pattern is sharp peaks and trough's this only happens with good unworn abrasive a worn abrasive will give curved scratch marks which are hard to remove.
So if you draw a series of sharp scratches something like MMMMMMMMMM your next level abrasive needs to cut off the peaks and most importantly reach the trough, cutting it's own smaller set of MMMMMMMM's skipping a grade will flatten the peaks but miss the troughs so the original scratch marks don't get removed just spaced between new scratch marks.
While you can eventually cut down to the bottom of the trough with a too high grade, it takes a lot of time and a lot of abrasive risking the curved ripple effect that nothing can polish out.
Not a great explanation... but I hope it makes sense...
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Windfall apart from my flippant answer earlier, I would advise that go for at least 4 grits. 120, 240, 320 and 400. There are many sanding systems out there made by manufacturers who are just waiting to seperate you from your wallet. I go to a local tool hire company , they also stock nuts and bolts and stuff and they order in for me. I sometimes buy 4" wide rolls of cloth backed abrasives (J) weight and tear thm in half length ways so I get two for the price of one. I would also learn to refine your ciuts so that you can start on a higher grit. And the other thing is to learn how to abrade correctly and so avoiding wasteage. I also buy paper backed rolls for commercial work, the highest I go on that is 120 grit but I have just done a job that came in from India, a clean up job, and I started at 40 grit. I would avoid buying from places like B&Q as they are very expensive. Sharpen your tools more often and see what a difference it makes.
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I use from 80 grit up to 1200 grit but rarely the whole range on one piece!
The experts say you should never go up by more than 50% of the number to the next grit so from 120, no higher than 180 and from 180 no higher than 270 etc. If you skip grits the finer one won't take out the scratches left by the coarser one and the final finish will suffer.
I would also avoid using any abrasive waxes on open grained woods such as oak, ash, elm, chestnut etc. as it will get into the pores of the wood and you won't be able to get it all out.
There is no way I would limit my abrasives to just three grits I aim to produce the best finish I can and that wouldn't be possible with a limited range of abrasives.
I buy most of my abrasives in 2" wide rolls. I see most people who buy 4" rip it in half and I'm too lazy to do that!
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Ok kewl, thanks for all your reply's.
So I now realise I asked a totally stupid question, a bit like "How were the heavy elements from iron to uranium made?"
So I have read through all the reply's and narrowed the answer to my question "If you could only have 3 grits of sandpaper?", down to these grits : P12 P16 P20 P24 P30 P36 P40 P50 P60 P80 P100 P120 P150 P180 P220 P240 P280 P320 P360 P400 P500 P600 P800 P1000 P1200 P1500 P2000 P2500
Of course I also need to take into consideration :
Wood type - and size
Lathe speed
Air density
Time of year
Position relative to the equator and full moon.
Mooring restrictions.
Observations of the position of nearby galaxies.
And my personal interpretation of the 2nd law of thermal dynamics.
This isn’t a criticism, it’s just a simple observation.
This is how I would have answered the question I asked. (but then again, if I knew the answer I wouldn't have asked the question)
Q : If you could only have 3 grits of sandpaper?
The three main sandpapers I buy the most of, are - ?? grit - ?? grit and ?? grit. So, if I could only have 3 grits of sand paper that’s what I would buy, and that's the reason I would buy them.
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If you are new to woodturning you will quickly realise that if you ask 10 woodturners a question you will get a minimum of 11 answers LOL.
pete
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If you are new to woodturning you will quickly realise that if you ask 10 woodturners a question you will get a minimum of 11 answers LOL.
pete
Thats now my forum signature :)
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This is how I would have answered the question I asked. (but then again, if I knew the answer I wouldn't have asked the question)
Q : If you could only have 3 grits of sandpaper?
The three main sandpapers I buy the most of, are - ?? grit - ?? grit and ?? grit. So, if I could only have 3 grits of sand paper that’s what I would buy, and that's the reason I would buy them.
Ok, I buy and use more meters of 120 and 180 Velcro backed Micra Abranet 50mm x 10m, but it would be an incomplete answer ;D
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The question is as unrealistic as asking if you could only have one woodturning tool which would it be!
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The question is as unrealistic as asking if you could only have one woodturning tool which would it be!
Paul If I said "I'm starting out in wood turning, I can only afford to buy 3 chisels - which ones would you recommend?" You wouldn't think that was unrealistic would you?
BTW I did ask that question somewhere else and I was recommended these https://www.ukwoodcraftandcarbidechisels.co.uk/ (https://www.ukwoodcraftandcarbidechisels.co.uk/) I bought them, and other than a parting knife I've used nothing else even though I was given a load of chisels later on. I'm happy with my choice and over time as I expand my abilities to do more complex pieces I'll ask a whole separate set of questions on chisels.
But when I asked that question - I simply wanted to get going - I knew I'd screw up a load of scrap wood and I knew that would be part of the learning process. Now I have the confidence to turn some small pieces I wanted to know what people bought the most of in sandpaper to make a base for my sanding.
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There are many heads nodding sagely as they read your reply. ;D ;D ;D
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I don't want people thinking I'm criticising the answers I'm not - I've lurked for along time in here building up knowledge for the time I bought a lathe.
I do other stuff with wood and resin but wanted to move to turning as I really enjoyed it 30 odd years ago. So I do know a bit about wood finishing - but not in respects of turned wood.
And I have learned loads from the answers to my question that I'll use later on.
Some of the things I do
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Hi Windfall
If you go with what Paul says about moving up no more than about 50% thro the grits, which I think is good advice. You can then decide at what grit you want to start with eg. 100, 150, 200.
As you improve you may want to alter your grit selection 120, 180,240.
If you use the 50% parameters you can make up your own mind what grit you need to start with and go from there.
Cheers
Michael
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FWIW I normally start at 120 or 180 and then use at least 240 and 400, with others at times depending on the wood. On an unpowered rotating bowl sander I have disks at 180 and 400. But I still have some 80 paper which I bought early on and have yet to work out what do do with!
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Use it to scratch out this "over-long, over--running" post??
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If you could only afford three chisels I would suggest you buy some second hand tools and buy six instead!
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I'll go back to only reading the forum, seems some people are a little delicate.
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Windfall I like your carvings very much.
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Hi
This is some thread i think the choice of abrasive grit(s)
Really depends on how good your finish off your tools is?
Thats all you need to concentrate on
Go watch a good wood turner .
As for tools learn to walk before you can run go get yourself
Some lessons you will learn a lot i promise.
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It's good to see a lot of interaction on a forum, nothing worse than a bunch of people with nothing to say!
Tools v Abrasive is quite a bit different. thing is you can spend serious money on a gouge that you will not ever use after day one, but with abrasives they are relatively cheep in small quantities for experimentation. I honestly can't remember how I found my selection, but I know I did in the early days make the mistake of buying some paper backed abrasives which was worse than useless for turning, but it got used in other places so it wasn't dead money.
When all is said and done the range of advice is not far apart, preferences aside
- You will want lots of the middle range, and a bit on the extremities.
- It will need to be decent quality just because of the serious miles of cutting you can achieve on a lathe
- it needs a cloth backing
- If you want to use velcro attached tools sometimes then it makes sense to get a velcro backed roll
But when all is said and done it is a fairly easy thing to find your own preferences, which will depend on what timber you are using and what shapes you are cutting as much as the finish required.
Try small quantities of a range of products, buy in bulk once you have found your happy place.
Love the carvings, shows great sympathy for the nature of the timber as well as skill in the eye of the creator. If you turn with that appreciation for the wood and the object you will need a lot of abrasive grades and a range of polishes. So the best bet is to get involved with your local club, and pinch a bit of wax / oil / abrasive from a wide pool of people to find what works for you.
As for starting tools roughing gouge, spindle gouge, bowl gouge, skew and parting tool. There are more things out there than you can ever use, and they will be cluttering up your workshop sooner than you think. same advice goes really, get people around that you can borrow from try things out find what works for you.
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Hi Windfall I have kept out of this subject as i have now expected there is no definitive answer but I think members of this
Forum have been most helpful I guess your last posting means you will only be reading the comments in future that's a
shame taking part is the fun bit and we do not always get the answers we want but I consider the information we get is
invaluable so I guess you will read this but there will be no REPLY ???
Regards John
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Having read the question again, I still think this is being approached from the wrong direction. Trying to cut corners on finishing will only have one result - a poorer finish. If your aim is to produce the best quality possible, scrimping on something so fundamental won't achieve that goal.
Also, persevering with the wrong grit will take a lot longer to get the desired finish so labour costs will be higher. This will more than outweigh any saving in abrasives.
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Sandpaper is what you put on the base of a budgie's cage and all they do is **** on it!
ATB John
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Well I have gone to the other extreme and my regular abrasive armoury starts with 80, 100 These first two grades only used if required, otherwise I start with 120 then 150, 180, 220, 240, 280, 320, 400, 600.
These are purchased as 2" wide 10 metre length rolls direct from the manufacturers. I use each piece of torn off abrasive once only. Using this method minimises sanding time and gives a consistently excellent base for whichever finish I wish to apply.
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Ok I tak eon board what you say - maybe reword the question - What are the 3 main grits you use the most of?
....OK....but I still can't give a straight answer. I guess my single "main grit" is the first grit that I use, which removes minor tool marks and blemishes. That is usually 120 grit. Following that, I use 180/240/320/400 every time. Thus I can state my main grit, but I couldn't state which are my 3 main grits.
Les
Agree with Les 1 got a good supply of 120 to 600 (+ a small roll of 80 grit for emergencies) and been sanding through the grits starting at 120 hand sanding then 120 with a hope spinning sanding arbour and doing this right up to 600, But just lately i bought some yorkshire grit and sand 120 180 240 by hand then arbour, then sanding sealer, de nib, with green nyweb, then yorkshire grit which seems to get me to where i was when sanding to 600 on most pieces , so maybe If you are determined to just buy 3 grits and use yorkshire grit 120 180 240 may do you, but i still use 320 400 and 600 on some work, also now using home made yorkshire grit, as i can buy ingredients and make it for less than £4 for the equivalent of a 227 g tin
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What happened to Wind fall ?????