AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: seventhdevil on June 10, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
-
hi all, i want to ask everyone's opinion on pricing for production turning as it's not something i've done before.
i've had an enquiry to manufacture 1000 sets of a game that has 30mm diameter by 14mm thick discs comprising of 4 pairs of colours and one plain with a brand lasered on to it. they also need a 2mm chamfer top and bottom.
i will obviously be cutting dowel and sanding the faces probably mounting them in a jam chuck to cut the chamfers. there are 9 in each set so 9000 pucks (as he calls them) to make in total.
my question is, how do i price a job like this?
any help from (especially from production turners) is appreciated.
Steve
-
I would say this is a job for somebody with a CNC lathe. Do you have such a lathe?
In any case you'd try to automate the whole job as much as possible. Example: cut the two chamfers before you part off the puck. Use the highest speed possible, to ensure you don't need much finishing after that. Use tools with hard tips, so you don't need to resharpen them all the time. And don't do anything with jam chucks and hand sanding. Put as many of the pucks as you can into some sort of rotating drum (a washing machine would probably work) and tumble them, maybe with some material to aid with smoothing the surfaces.
Once you have the process sorted out, you can figure out with trial runs how long each step takes. From there it's a simple case of same basic maths.
As I see it, this is border line mass production, and there are companies who are set up for this kind of thing. Are you happy to compete with them?
-
Best person to ask is Richard Findley. I don't do much production work to that scale personally but I usually charge my hourly rate plus cost of material. Add your estimation of things like finishes electricity etc and then a reasonable amount on top as profit. ASs Fuzzyturns says try to automate as much as possible.
pete
-
I don't really see why Richard Findley or any other production turner should be expected to assist other turners to price the sort off work they do.
I would suggest you work it out for yourself that is what being self employed is all about.
If you cant work it out pass the job on to Richard findley or Gary Rance.
Regards George
-
do a trial run to see how long it would take you to make a set. From that you should be able to work out total labour and materials costs. Add your overheads and profit to arrive at your price for the job.
With a large run like this, any time saving techniques will make a big difference.
-
Hi Steve,
I agree with George you have to work this out for yourself only you know how fast you can turn these with the Quality that will be required
remember you will become bored turning 9000 of these Paul had a good idea do a test run then work it out.
If this customer is getting quotes from other sources you may be competing with someone with a CNC type of lathe and they will be doing them like
shelling peas.The best of luck keep us posted.
Regards John
-
Personally I would look on the internet.
-
I do hand production runs all the time sometimes 1000's but I wouldn't even bother quoting for this as it is impossible to be competitive with this type of work, if you are competing against CNC. With this volume on a simple turning I wouldn't waste time working out a price. Politely turn the job down.
If you really want to quote then work out time and material costs and give a quote your happy to work many hours of boredom for. Be careful get the price wrong and you will have hours and hours of repetitive work to endure for no reward.
-
2 weeks work just to turn them allowing 2 minutes each. £20 or £30 each colour in paint, you cant dip them properly so hand paint or spray and then there is the logo/brand to think of. Sanding is no problem, buy a drum sander from Axminster for £800 and an extractor, make a jig using ply or MDF and poke them all through a couple of times. As for materials I would buy in dowel as it is more accurate for the cost per metre than you can turn it for.
Depending on the cost of the laser cutting I would estimate that they will cost between 20p to 30p each to make by hand so you should charge them out at least at 50p each giving you a return of about £4,500. Not bad for 2 or 3 weeks work. I must admit though that I prefer to end my working week without the nagging need to go and hang myself. ;D ;D ;D
I once (and only once) did a run of 500 furniture buttons in pine, the type that are used to cover screw holes. Luckily the dowel fitted up the head stock so that made it a bit easier, I ground a chisel so that in one cut I could cut the face and the tenon in one go ( If I was clever enough I would've ground it to part off aswell) This cut the time right down but I was climbing the walls at the end.
-
Oh dear! 9000 at 2 mins each to turn is no way 2 weeks work.
9000 x 2= 18000
18000 mins = 300 hours
A long 50 hour week gives 6 weeks solid work just to turn.
As I said be careful costing this job
-
£0.50p was what i had in mind too but i've asked what he was quoted from an american company and it was a mere £0.14p painted and all... this was for their minimum run of 25000 though.
the dowel would cost about £700 for the 180 lengths i'd need and i don't mind doing the work if the price is right as i don't have much on at the moment so am not in a position to turn much away.
in saying that i'm not sure i'll be able to compete with the quote he's had so far but we've agreed for me to do a test run using just one dowel so i can give an accurate quote.
he may be doing the spraying and i know someone with a laser thingummyjig so they should be able to do that.
i'll do the test next week as i've a fair at the weekend and will keep you all posted.
thanks for everyones help.
-
I'm amazed, anyone would even try to make these by hand at 14p each.
£700 timber £80 paint £200 engraving cost(approx) leaves £280 for 8 weeks hard graft
Talk about under selling our skills.
-
I have a standard order for tapestry bobbins and originally they asked for 200. The thought of that much copying was a big no no so I got them to give me a ring for 50 every so often. That I can cope with though I still do them in batches, rough out...do something else, turn to maximum size..... do something else, finish shaping....do something else, finish off sanding etc. personally if I have to do to many I find that I lose concentration and start making mistakes and so I limit myself. Using a jig, spanners for the different diameters etc helps get it down to 4 minutes each if I do one complete in one go. I can charge £2.50 each so well worth it for me.
Pete
-
Ive earnt a good living for 35 years purely from production turning and have done batches of 1000 many times. You quickly get a feel for which jobs are worth quoting and those that are a waste of time. There is still plenty of production work you can make money on by hand. But this is not one.
-
i'm not going to do the job for £0.14 each.
if the test goes ok i might ask £0.25p per puck.
£700 for the wood but i'm not sure as to what the paint or lasering will cost.
i reckon i'll get £1200 out of the job but i'm not sure for how long.
i'll see how long the test takes next week.
-
Well, you can work the figures here. 14p from the yanks, but for 25k pieces, that gives £3500. So in essence if you quote him 50p per piece, he can go to the yanks, save 1k and have another 16k pieces to play with. That's a no brainer. As I said in my very first post, most likely the yanks have some kind of CNC machine (probably with a suitable bore going all the way through the spindle, so they can feed long dowels), and once they've set that thing up, all they need to do is watch it work (at a speed and accuracy you cannot possibly match by hand) and change dowels every 2 minutes or so.
I feel for you. It's hard to let a job go, especially if you're not really busy, but it's probably better to not do this rather than lose money, time and the will to live.
-
the customer only want's 9000 total, not nearly three times the amount but that's the american's minimum order.
-
I'm with Steve, not even worth the hassel of quoting. I can't make anything for less than £1. I (try to) charge £30 an hour, which works out at 50p per minute. Theres not much can be made in less than 2 minutes - and that's without the wood, finish, abrasives, overheads, blah, blah, blah.
The other thing I would say is, do you have any idea how many items 1000 is? I did a job of 1000 once. OMFG! You really have no idea just how many items a 1000 is until you lay them out on a bench. The stress (deadline) just wasn't worth the money - no matter how much you get. If I wanted a streesful job I'd go and work in the City and earn millions. I don't.
You don't charge enough for your work anyway, so don't undersell yourself.
Richard
-
Oh dear! 9000 at 2 mins each to turn is no way 2 weeks work.
9000 x 2= 18000
18000 mins = 300 hours
A long 50 hour week gives 6 weeks solid work just to turn.
As I said be careful costing this job
Wise words as obviously I dropped a clanger or pushed the wrong button on the calculator!! :-[ :-[ :-[
I would be inclined to locate a UK company with a copy lathe and get them to quote for the quantity that you require, beat them down on price and then add a percentage. You just might win.
-
This job is quite simple really if the customer want's a quote find someone with a cnc machine get a price add 20% and give the customer a quote if you get the job get the cnc machine to do it :)
-
I would rather bang my head against the wall for a few weeks far less boring.
Regards George
-
I am sure I would be Banging my head against the Wall it would be much more fun I cannot even see why you were even considering this ??? ???
Regards John
-
How about getting a co operative of turners to do a batch each, spread the costs, boredom and profit. Worked for the coop. ;)