AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: goldfinger234 on November 11, 2014, 08:39:07 AM
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Reading through a couple of the last topics, something that is frequently mentioned is the subject of 'inferior workmanship', usually in relationship to people selling the things they make. Where does one come across this? Is it primarily craft fairs?
I've been an amateur turner for years, I'm not a club member as my day job gets in the way of attending regular meetings. I'm reminded of a discussion I once stumbled across a few years ago between some locksmiths. The gist is they wanted the government to intervene in their trade to stop people setting up and undercutting them, by bringing in myriad qualifications to deter these upstarts and keep the market to themselves. I don't want to seem like I'm being funny, but we'll never stop people selling rubbish. The country is full of it. I agree wholeheartedly that people selling things "just to get their money back" are nothing but a nuisance and demean both themselves and woodturning in general, but rail as you might, you can't stop it.
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There is plenty of poor work out there. I've seen it at craft fairs and in galleries. The main problem is that there is a natural cycle that turners follow:
Turners buy the gear and practice for a while, then make their first few masterpieces. Once their house is full and every one they know has a bowl of wooden fruit, is writing with a wooden pen, bakes with a wooden rolling pin...... what do you then do with the stuff you make? You sell it.
The problem is, at this point the work won't be good enough to sell! I know this because I've seen it so many times, and it was also me once upon a time.
Now days, this sort of stuff doesn't bother me because I operate in a different market to the hobbists, supplying the trade mostly, if my work isn't up to scratch then I get told, in no uncertain terms that it needs to improve - or worse, I get no more work and a poor reputation! My reputation is very important to me as I've worked very hard to get it to where it is!
There are some basics that people need to be able to do before they can sell work:
* Produce work with no torn grain
* Produce work without finishing marks, swirls or rings on it
* Produce work with no catches showing on it
* Produce work of good proportion and form
This last one is arguabley the most difficult but all can be achieved if you listen to feedback without getting the hump, and can be critical of your own work, honest enough with yourself that the term 'that will do' isn't ever used.
Richard
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...... 'inferior workmanship', .......Where does one come across this? Is it primarily craft fairs? .......but rail as you might, you can't stop it.
hi goldfinger,
You ask where we come across this inferior workmanship. Sadly, it is commonplace. I mentioned a shop where I saw several examples and there is even a gallery in my home town (which I won't consider using) which has some pretty inferior stuff on sale. For sure, there's plenty to be found in craft fairs, but there's just as much to be found in craft shops and galleries.
I agree that it can't be stopped, but that won't prevent me from doing my bit to educate a shop or gallery owner, bringing to their notice the fact that I consider shape and form, that I finish the underside every bit as well as I finish the top etc etc. When I find that this doesn't work, and the shop continues to sell tat alongside my work, then I simply withdraw my stock (if it's sale-or-return), or stop supplying (if the shop is buying my stock). As you say, '...you can't stop it', but that doesn't mean that we have to sell alongside it. Be fussy about where you sell, set a standard!
Les
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Hi everyone
I agree with most of the comments made on these subjects and even Richard admits in his analogy that he went there once in his early
days I also think if there were no buyers for this inferior work it would soon change either the persons work would improve or they would give up.
I also consider some of the things I buy for my woodturning hobby My Grinder from Wicks £29 Ten years ago still going strong I didn't buy an
expensive one Tools that I only use on a few occasions but do the job I have just purchased a belt sander from Aldi cheap but it will be ok for what I
want it for.
If I was having to make a living from my woodturning and was turning every day like a good many do on this Forum I would also buy the best tools
I consider the work I sell at craft fairs (I only do 2 a year) to be of good Quality I have pride in what I make and I am my biggest critic next to SWMBO.
I am sure we can all look in the mirror and say I brought that cheap but did we think at the time of the skilled craftsmen who we were not supporting.
Regards John
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I am new to the turning world and I would never consider selling anything I make.
I know it wouldn't take me long to achieve these guidelines maybe a year depending on time spent in the shed.
* Produce work with no torn grain
* Produce work without finishing marks, swirls or rings on it
* Produce work with no catches showing on it
* Produce work of good proportion and form
I think having high standards needs to be added.
I still wouldn't dream of selling anything I make till I have something that I am 100% confident I would buy myself I am very critical of my own work.
Some people just have low standards and are happy with poor quality work.
I mentioned before about seeing a guys work and him beaming like it was a masterpiece when in fact it was quite bad.
Not even, catches all over the place, tool marks everywhere, no sanding, wonky ends and he had varnished it calling it a finished piece.
Ryan
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I would tentatively agree with that list but would want to add on ' Can repeat a successful effort at least 5 times on the trot'.
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It's for most of the above reasons that I've always coupled my turning with furniture making. If you're not selling them, there are only so many bowls you can make. In the past I've had quite a lot of success selling lidded boxes through a couple of shops at popular coast towns in Yorkshire. It's not something I've done for a few years since my day job changed, but I've always thought it a better way to sell certain things we all make than galleries.
I forget which book it is as I've got all of his, but in one of them Richard Raffan talks briefly about selling the things you make, and the importance of first getting the quality of your workmanship to a high enough base standard, then increasing your speed. I'm not saying you could sit back and make a living solely from it, but when you're quick enough at making them, and with the right tourist outlets, lidded boxes will always sell. Horses for courses in the end.
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This subject appears on various forums with monotonous regularity and it will continue to do so! Perhaps part of the problem here is that everyone has their own interpretation of what can be deemed an "acceptable" standard of work. Unfortunately, a large proportion of the general public would probably be non the wiser either way and many seem to be led by price rather than quality!
I also think it's easy to point the finger at the novice woodturner but in my travels I have come across work from people who might be considered accomplished or expert turners which have exhibited some of the flaws mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Perhaps their excuse is time and cost but this does nothing to uphold the high standards we all aspire to and would certainly send the wrong message to any novice who took time to inspect such work.
I'm not suggesting for one minute that anything I produce is perfect. My aim is always to make the next one better than the last one! Maybe one day I will be good enough!
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They most certainly are led by price to a greater or lesser extent, in pretty much all things, everything has a value. You could always try and sell a bowl for £10,000 but it'd be wise not to hold your breath.
We'd all be happy if the public were falling over themselves to buy so called "artistic" turnings for premium rates, maybe one day.
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I think Paul has hit the nail on the head everyone has their own interpretation of acceptable standards and that's in all things, not just woodturning.
Some woodturners strive to improve and aim to make their next piece better than their last. They will go on turning courses to learn the art of woodturning, here they will also be guided to how something should be finished.
But many woodturners follow that path, they read a book watch a video and start turning. They may get 30 or 40 catches in their early pieces and slowly get this number down to one or two so they think they have cracked it.
We all have different abilities when we are standing at our lathes some become masters at the craft, at the other end of the scale some will never improve. But none of us would want to stop anybody turning if they are getting the same joy form it as you and I.
Education and training is the only answer as I see it to this problem and the more woodturners that are taught correctly the better the level of workmanship. Then hopefully this is passed on down the line.
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Unfortunately not everyone would go on a course, even if free.
I suspect it is like driving. How many would admit they are bad drivers ?
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Going on a course does not imply you're a bad turner! If it does, then there are a lot of pro's who attend other pro's courses who are bad turners! In fact I think that would now be a requirement for anyone's course I wanted to attend-shows they are continuing to develop as a teacher.
The more courses you can attend the better. Just make sure you choose the right topics and the right teacher. Get feedback from others who have attended the course.
There are but a few teachers where I'd say "just book it" without knowing what the topics were that you would be learning. A couple of these are even in the UK.
David
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Unfortunately not everyone would go on a course, even if free.
I suspect it is like driving. How many would admit they are bad drivers ?
Ideal synopsis, for a license everybody has to take lessens and the set test, even more intents than some of Our own tests, (just identify a few signs and where not to park/overtake) and has become far from cheap.
The resulting pass and paperwork still doesn't qualify one as a competent driver. Anymore than the certificate of turning makes a Turner, it's dedicated practice, honing and building on the skills taught, if not taking further advanced courses that achieves that goal, than continuing breeding even more bad habits.
Speed under any circumstance has to be controlled... or we mess up at worst completely.
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surely the proof is in the pudding. most people will be able to tell if the item they are looking at is of good quality or not.
i've no desire to sit a test or get a qualification in something i'm perfectly able to do...
i'm not a qualified tenpin bowler but i'm very good and have hit 300. do i need a certificate to say how good i am???
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Surely those people with poor workmanship will discover that their work will not sell and give up, making way for the next 'craftsman'
Which maybe why I gave up craft fairs.....
Ron
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Surely those people with poor workmanship will discover that their work will not sell and give up, making way for the next 'craftsman'
Which maybe why I gave up craft fairs.....
Ron
...sadly, in today's society, there is a high proportion of people who accept poor quality, cheapness and dispensability as the norm. They buy on a whim, and because they don't value items, they don't care for them, so they soon get discarded. That's when they go and buy another one, which simply reinforces the belief of the maker of poor quality goods (of any description) that they're right in what they do. Perhaps they are!
Les
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Do any of you watch Flog It? Valuations often say in perfect condition so much but with that chip or crack or whatever, about X percent less. At the Auction some go for well above the estimate. And a really antique antique which most of us would chuck in the bin can go for a mind boggling sum!
So as Dr Joad used to say "It all depends".
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If your stuff is nice and it appeals to potential customers then the cheap competition should not be a worry, we attend a monthly craft market in Lincoln once a month and I sell my jewellery boxes for a minimum of £220, I have sold one every month this year and also produced another three on commission, my tuned boxes sell for a minimum of £24 and we have been at other craft fairs where we have been adjacent to other turners who are selling cheaper but we always do better.
I really do think that where wood crafts are involved that quality and craftsmanship sell, if the next stall is selling what you regard as rubbish cheaply, don't moan, just big-up your quality and the workmanship that has produced such a beautiful item, they have eyes.
There are plenty of people out there that turn for a hobby and do not wish to make any profit for whatever reason, perhaps they are not confident their stuff will fetch a good price, perhaps they are not skillful enough, perhaps they are giving the money to charity, if your stuff is of a high enough standard then what's the problem.
We also all do the same thing, which tools do you use? Sorby or Addis? which lathe do you have? cheap or pricey? it all boils down to what you can afford and what you like, same as people selling cheap stuff, not everybody can afford the expensive turnings but those who can will buy it if they like it.
That's my pennyworth anyway.
Andy
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Andy,
although not producing items toyour value I also put a realistic price on my work, and have no problem sell pieces at faires.
What brought me into this discussion is my latest fair. I was next to a lady who makes jewellrey, okay so there are lots of them. But the things that were getting the most attention, and she sold two that I saw, was jewellry boxes. No not the rally nice ones but the cheep nasty things you find in cheep jewellers for $20 or $30.
And presumably she picks them up in charity shops (going by here selling price). All she had done, painted and rubbed back to make them Shabby Chic.
So not making poor quality but finding a way to sell it!
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Andy,
although not producing items toyour value I also put a realistic price on my work, and have no problem sell pieces at faires.
What brought me into this discussion is my latest fair. I was next to a lady who makes jewellrey, okay so there are lots of them. But the things that were getting the most attention, and she sold two that I saw, was jewellry boxes. No not the rally nice ones but the cheep nasty things you find in cheep jewellers for $20 or $30.
And presumably she picks them up in charity shops (going by here selling price). All she had done, painted and rubbed back to make them Shabby Chic.
So not making poor quality but finding a way to sell it!
Absolutely Ed, the general public are fickle, take the constant stream of never ending 'sales' which all end on Monday, we all know they are non-existent but the public are obviously taken in by them or they would stop, instead they are on the increase. Those ply wooden boxes can be picked up on ebay for a few pence it's then up to any anyone with a bit of imagination to make a few bob on them, we are taken in by a bit of paint and some tag (chabby chic) applied to such items. It doesn't stop there though, everything which is advertised on telly now has a "tag" e.g. Toyota,,, "Fall in love with driving again" when did anyone fall 'out of love' with driving? I often see 'Craft' items whic to be honest are just a joke, things like 'Felt animals' what the heck do you do with one of those????
We don't even need to do any work really, just have a look at the Alibaba site for, let's say, "Wooden boxes" check some of the prices and minimum quantities, why bother doing it yourself if not for the enjoyment? (my chum gets his perpetual calendars and clocks through Alibaba) 100 at a time.
As far as being "undercut" or other woodturners selling cheap,,,have we ever thought about how much we sell turned items for and how much the professional turners are selling similar items for, are we not doing the same to them? do they complain?
Andy
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Reading through this and other posts about quality & price issues I am reminded of two quotes from the Victorian art critic John Ruskin, these I think epitomise the thoughts and sentiments of most of the contributors
There is scarcely anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse, and sell a little more cheaply. The person who buys on price alone is this man's lawful prey.”
John Ruskin 1819 - 1900
It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better.”
John Ruskin 1819 - 1900
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You cannot argue with that philosophy. The problem is that some people want something but only have so much money to spend. They buy cheap or they don't buy at all. Either way the skilled worker charging a fair price isn't getting the sale.
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You cannot argue with that philosophy. The problem is that some people want something but only have so much money to spend. They buy cheap or they don't buy at all. Either way the skilled worker charging a fair price isn't getting the sale.
But he will sell to someone who can afford it Graham, he will not sell to someone who does not have the money.
Allan Sugar got rich on selling rubbish Amstrad stereo's in Woollies but at the same time there were lots of people buying Technics and Bose and Dennon and a lot of other very expensive audio and it doesn't stop there, if the item has a purpose and it is well made then it will sell..
Andy
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You cannot argue with that philosophy. The problem is that some people want something but only have so much money to spend. They buy cheap or they don't buy at all. Either way the skilled worker charging a fair price isn't getting the sale.
But he will sell to someone who can afford it Graham, he will not sell to someone who does not have the money.
Allan Sugar got rich on selling rubbish Amstrad stereo's in Woollies but at the same time there were lots of people buying Technics and Bose and Dennon and a lot of other very expensive audio and it doesn't stop there, if the item has a purpose and it is well made then it will sell..
Andy
Yes. The point I was trying to make is that it may not be worth worrying about those selling cheap wood turnings. The customers may not be able to buy from you ( i.e., a skilled turner charging a fair price ) anyway.