AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Les Symonds on January 12, 2014, 06:00:52 PM
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Can anyone advise me, please, as to the legal requirements when making table-lamps for sale? I often see turned lamps on sale at craft fairs and in craft shops, but haven't noticed any CE marks or PAT-test certificates.
Les
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It's a minefield and best avoided IMHO. Have a look here (http://www.bis.gov.uk/files/file38623.pdf) Only 41 pages. You need product liability for anything you sell as well mind whatever it is, from a small top to a massive bowl. Unless anyone knows different (quite possible) I wouldn't bother as the legal requirements take longer to sort out than it does to make the thing. A lot of the ones you see at craft fairs are probably illegal as a lot of amateur turners I have spoken to don't bother with that side of things.
Pete
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Have a look on Tonys site http://www.lampmaker.co.uk/woodturners.htm#logo he makes them for a living so should know what he is talking about.
I have also been making and selling them for years and been inspected by trading standards on many occasions ans passed the inspection.
john
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Hi Les,
Dave Snowden from Mid Wales Woodturners is authorised to pass wiring on table lamps etc, so you can talk to him at next Sundays meeting.
Regards
Chris
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I made my first table lamp at school ca 1940. It worked and no harm came from it.
I'm convinced there is a lot of misinformation around, largely as a result of documentation which sets out to be all embracing. In electrical terms there is nothing simpler than a TL. A lamp socket a short length of cable and a fused plug. Let's assume a moulded on plug, twin and earth cable, and a brass lamp holder. The earth wire MUST be connected to the casing. It doesn't matter which way the other two wires are connected. Job done.
On page 5 of the LV Directive referred to above it states "electrical equipment is not required to be tested or marked for approval by an independent third party". So please discuss with Mr Snowdon.
It is of course imperative that you learn how to avoid damaging the copper when stripping back the insulation.
NOW WHERE'S THE CATCH ? Someone can still electrocute themself by sticking their fingers in the socket, and or burn their hand on a hot lamp. Makes a mockery of 'elf & safety.
On a more advanced note I would query the wisdom of flash testing an LV cable at 4 kV.
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If the Table Lamp is to be placed on a table and moved from time to time then a FLEXIBLE cable is essential. ”Twin & earth“ isn't flexible and is only really suitable for cable that is NEVER moved or bent.
The flexible cable needs to be long enough to reach the socket without being stretched taut but not so long that somebody might trip over it!
Your view,may, of course, differ
MC
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I was not writing a treaty on cable terminology, simply specifying the basic needs for 2 live and one earth wires. I had assumed it would be flexible.
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For further clarity please read treatise not treaty.
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While some readers may be familiar with the difference between ”Twin & earth” and “flexible cable”, I suggest that this would NOT be a safe assumption and that it's worthwhile clarifying the best cable to use.
It's probably also worth mentioning that if the 13A plug comes with a 13A fuse, it would be a good idea to change it to a 3A fuse or smaller.
MC
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I would go further than that and say that a 13 amp fuse should definitely be changed to 3 or 5 amp. Last week I fitted new lamps in our oven. One burnt out and blew the 5 amp fuse.
Getting back to the original question, it would be helpful if AWGB commissioned a definitive statement on this topic. We surely don't want members to stop making them.
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There is nothing to stop members making anything but if you want to sell what you make, it's a whole different ball game.
I think you have to remember that most members are amateurs / hobbyists so selling and the regulations around it are of no interest to them. Perhaps the AWGB shouldn't be investing their subscription monies to the benefit of the few that are looking to make a profit.
Anyone that wants to make a lamp but is unsure of the electrical side of things should consult a competent person.
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There is nothing to stop members making anything but if you want to sell what you make, it's a whole different ball game.
I think you have to remember that most members are amateurs / hobbyists so selling and the regulations around it are of no interest to them. Perhaps the AWGB shouldn't be investing their subscription monies to the benefit of the few that are looking to make a profit.
Anyone that wants to make a lamp but is unsure of the electrical side of things should consult a competent person.
I agree hence my original comments. Whatever you make, if it is for sale you should have PL insurance and if it is toys there are one set of regulations, electrical items another. I am happy to make anything for personal use but not for sale.
Pete
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I'm a chartered electrical engineer who retired 23 years ago. In common with most professionals we are experienced over a range of issues but not every aspect. Think medical for example.
So I feel competent to advise on the wiring of a lamp but I'm not competent to deal with the ins and outs of the rules and regulations, which incidentally vary from country to country.
It seems to me to be quite wrong that someone is afraid to sell something they've made and it's up to organised bodies to help prevent it from happening.
I think I'm right in saying that to succeed in defending a claim under public liability insurance one would have to show compliance with rules and regs in force.
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Below is a post I made a couple of years ago about this subject and it all holds true today, there are a couple of things to add one is that there musnt be more than 2 metres of cable from the base of the item to the plug, EU regs. I now put 2 60w stickers on each lamp one on the base and one on the lampholder, the reason for this is trading standards in different places have different ideas of where it should be.
john
With regards to table lamps and the electrical regs I had this question last year and did a bit of research on it. I contacted various bodies and the results are below, I posted this elsewhere so you might have seen it before.
Since this I have sold a few of them and on 2 occasions have had a visit from trading standards at shows and had no problem.
To try and get a definitive answer I rang my local Trading Standards Office, Peterborough and Rutland district, this morning to ask their opinion.
Unfortunately the TSO I needed to talk to was out of the office till this afternoon, they suggested I rang back then. In the meantime they suggested I rang the electrical safety council, as they should be able to give me the answer. I rang them and they gave me their view of the regulations, this afternoon I rang the TSO and talked to the officer who is their electrical expert. The answer I got from both of these sources were the same and are below.
As far as making a body then fitting brought in parts to it to make a working item there are no Laws or Rules & Regulations nationally in England or locally that says electrical items must be inspected and/or tested before they are offered for sale to the general public providing the following conditions are fulfilled.
1. It is not a toy or designed for use by a child, IE the lampshade if fitted is not aimed at children or it is not sold as a nursery light etc.
2. The electrical parts used are CE approved (bulb holder and inline switch if fitted) or conform to the relevant British Standard (cable clamp, cable, plug, fuse).
3. These parts are not altered; fitting the flex does not constitute an alteration and is allowed.
4. In the case of table lamps the relevant type of cord clamp is fitted.
5. The correct size of fuse is fitted: I was recommended a 3 or 5 amp.
6. It is safe, IE the lamp is stable and all components are securely and properly fitted
7. The correct labels are attached, max 60W bulb, CE & plug label.
Providing these conditions are met there is nothing to stop you selling table lamps or other electrical items, unless there are local rules in other areas but neither of the people I talked too knew of any.
Both of the people I spoke to recommended that I kept records of the parts I purchased and in which items I used them so in case of problems these could be traced back to the supplier/maker. Both of the people I spoke to said that if I wanted to I could get them tested either by one of the large testing bodies, which would be expensive and time consuming. Or by a local qualified electrician who would issue a certificate or just to get each item PAT tested, any of these would give me a certificate which would say it was safe at the time of testing. They both stressed that this was not necessary but if I did get them tested it would just be another safeguard if there was a problem. Both of them said that this was how their organisations viewed the regulations but until this particular scenario is tested in a court of law no one would know for sure.
Below is an extract from an email the TSO sent me.
Further to our telephone conversation below is the link to the guidance
from the DTI website. I would recommend you keep records of the parts
you purchse and use, when they were purchase, who from and any batch
numbers if relavent. If there are any problems then you can trace items
used or sold.
Towards the bottom of the webpage under the heading Electrical equipment
is a link to the guidance booklet called Product standards - electrical
equipment (the low voltage directive). It should give you hints of
things to look out for to ensure your product is safe and information to
keep if a problem should happen.
Shortcut to:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/innovation/strd/strdpubs/page10946.html
So after all that I have decided I will be making table lamps and selling them at craft fairs. I will be keeping records of parts brought and where used and getting the lamps PAT tested (cost £2.50 an item) before selling them.
I hope the information above is of use to you and happy turning.
john
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What makes an electrician “qualified”?
MC
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That is really useful John. I was told when I first inquired that any electrical items that I sold to the public must be tested and certificated which put me right off when I looked at the regs etc. If your inf. is correct then it makes the whole idea of making lamps much more acceptable.
Thanks
Pete
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Well....as soon as this thread became active I decided to wait and read all the replied together, rather than respond to any one, specific reply. Thanks so much, guys, for the quality and the comprehensive nature of your replies...your information has been most useful as is very highly valued. An aspect of woodturning that I thought would be outside my safe-working practices, has just fallen within it.
Cheers....Les
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Thankyou John for taking the time to research this and for passing on your findings.
regards
John BHT
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Good question. There's probably more than one answer. I'll offer one.
Someone who has satisfactorily completed a recognised training course and preferably served an apprenticeship. ( obviously with a qualified electrician ) and in the context of the present discussion one dealing with low voltage systems.
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Good question. There's probably more than one answer. I'll offer one.
Someone who has satisfactorily completed a recognised training course and preferably served an apprenticeship. ( obviously with a qualified electrician ) and in the context of the present discussion one dealing with low voltage systems.
Tony, You wrote that you were a Chartered Electrical Engineer.
Would you consider yourself qualified - even though you may not satisfy your own criteria above?
MC
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No. I am OVER QUALIFIED within the prescribed parameters.
I did a 5 year apprenticeship at BTH. I have an ONC in mechanical engineering and an HNC in electrical engineering. I am a member of the institution of engineering and technology. I had 48 years experience working with electric motors, generators , control gear , switchgear, transformers, and rectifiers. I dealt with power stations of all types other than wind. In my last 10 years I got involved with marine propulsion on the QE2 and both conventional and nuclear submarines.
To summarise an interesting but underpaid career. However I did get the chance to see some of the rest of the world.
OK ???
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You don't have to be either an electrician or "qualified" to do PAT testing. You just have to be "competent". Holding a relevant qualification may be one way of proving competence but that isn't the only way.
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Well....as soon as this thread became active I decided to wait and read all the replied together, rather than respond to any one, specific reply. Thanks so much, guys, for the quality and the comprehensive nature of your replies...your information has been most useful as is very highly valued. An aspect of woodturning that I thought would be outside my safe-working practices, has just fallen within it.
Cheers....Les
Thanks for posting that Les, as I too, have done exactly that. I did a club demonstration at the end of last year, primarily showing long hole boring but the project was a table lamp. I fitted it with bought in (and CE marked components), used three core flex as it used a brass lampholder, and clamped the cable in the base. But one of the members said the latest rule is that you have to leave sufficient flex inside the lamp to allow the end user to rewire the lamp holder. Hence my interest in these postings. And thanks to everyone for all the replies.
I will offer one spanner in the works though. But this is aimed at the regulatory bodies. The rules say the flex must not be longer than 2m, but how many users want a lamp somewhere that is over 2m from the nearest mains socket? So what do they do, they use an extension lead, and those, in my mind, are far more likely to cause problems than the original table lamp. I had a relative who knocked a cup of tea off her bedside cabinet. Guess what - it went all over the extension socket, blew the fuses and plunged the whole house into darkness. So much for Health and Safety.
Grumble over. Back in the workshop tomorrow, making table lamps ;D
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Thank you Les, like you I've waited until it's hoped to see all replies to your question .. I have made many lamps in the past and still have stock for more, but when all the regs. came on wiring etc, some got made up into candle sticks .. guess what .. a whole s**** load on candle safety ... and musts ... blow that out too.
In reading through I spot the underlying problem ... EU ... and there what WE must do .. and all the time they pile their cr*** on us, I've seen 2 Hair dryers, Curling tongs and like goods blow up/wire burn out before now and where are they from the EU .. China's not all bad.
I did see also in DTI/STRD 2003 .. up todate there ..
The fundamental UK policy on product safety regulation is that it should specify the goal, leaving those who are being regulated, wherever possible, some freedom to decide how to achieve this goal.
The rest was plain English too ... and at that time !!!
Each year some 4000 people die in the UK as a result of accidents in the home (this is more than are killed on the roads annually in the UK – although for completeness I should add that we have one of the lowest rates of fatal road accidents in the EU) and almost three million seek medical attention as a result of non-fatal home accidents.
Your views John BHT as our H&S Rep. on wiring lamps, Please ... or are we just " that most members are amateurs / hobbyists so selling and the regulations around it are of no interest to them " We are above all interested as fellow turners.
Cheers David
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The views of our John as H&S Rep. on wiring lamps, Please ... or are we just " that most members are amateurs / hobbyists so selling and the regulations around it are of no interest to them " We are above all interested as fellow turners.
Cheers David
I will apologise to David for using his post to quote, as others have made similar distinctions, but I think we need to be careful that we don't distinguish too aggressively between items that are 'sold to customers' and those 'given to friends and relatives'.
I agree that commercial regulations do appear to be 'over the top' and inflict a whole load of requirements but the aim behind most of those regulations are that the end product must be safe.
Now, I suspect all of us are naturally more concerned for the safety of friends and family than the 'general public', that is human nature, so, surely, the regulations should be even MORE important for items given to friends and family? I, for one, do not want to be responsible for electrocuting my sister.
No you don't really need a CE label, but you do need the electrics to be correct - flex type, clamps, plug, fuse, bulb, lampholder, fixings and so on.
And don't forget to finish it properly so the end user doesn't get splinters! ;)