AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: edbanger on November 08, 2014, 09:07:56 AM
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Following on a bit from Les's thread Is It Me and reading the many comments the thread yet again seems to have gone down the road of quality of workmanship, pricing and venues.
We have the AWGB which supports woodturning and anyone can join, I joined within a month of starting woodturning. Then there's the RPT which is for professional woodturners. But there is nothing for the rest of us.
If there was a Guild of Woodturners - The craftsmen work would have to be assessed before entry could be obtained. Exhibitions and sales could have a set of guidelines which are followed by members of the guild. Venues for sales could be set up where only Guild members exhibit their work.
Guild of Woodturners members could display a logo or something at other sales that they attend so people would know that anything sold by a Guild member would be to a standard so therefore the member could justify their price's.
Just an idea
Ed
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Hi Ed...I'm not quite sure that I follow what you're suggesting. Are you suggesting the idea of a Guild for both professional and amateur turners? If so, fair enough. My only reservation would be that there are Guilds out there that have open membership, but no vetting or quality-control processes, which de-values the whole idea. The type of Guild that you're suggesting sounds enviable, but it would need a controlling body, a constitution and vetting procedures. The question would have to be, who on nearth is going to set up such a body?
Les
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I can certainly see the benefits of such a guild, provided there really is a vetting process for members. Displaying something that says you are a member would set you apart from the myriad of other turners selling their produce off cheap and would probably encourage those to up their game and be able to join as well. The big question is how do you educate the general public to the significance of membership ?
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Les it's just an idea
I think that any woodturner could belong to the Guild but would have to meet certain standards, but they need not be a professional woodturner who has to earn a living from woodturning. We have two organizations all ready and one of those could set it up. Otherwise it would I guess need a team of like-minded woodturners who wanted to improve the face of woodturning and it sole aim would be for promotion of woodturners with a code that has to be followed.
It could be like an amateur RPT
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If you sell your work and can show that you earn a certain percentage of your income from doing so you can apply to the RPT, you don't have to be a full time wood turner. The criteria can be seen here (http://registerofprofessionalturners.co.uk/about/). The main thrust is on being able to meet standards of workmanship, working practices etc and I do wonder how many of the 'amateurs' could in fact become members. The AWGB is open to anyone really, nothing wrong with that but it doesn't oversee the quality of work that people sell which is perhaps the biggest problem. Setting up a Guild would involve a huge amount of work and ongoing admin and could still not really control those people who make and sell inferior work.
Pete
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One possible problem with the RPT is that I suspect only turners have heard of it. ? < a question, not a derogatory statement>
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When you are a member you have a certificate which is about A4 size. I usually display it at the larger shows as do other members I know of. When I demonstrate at fairs shows etc I wear a smock with the badge. It is up to us to advertise these things. We can only blame the 'ignorant public' for so much LOL
Pete
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I understand from a friend who is going through the process of joining the RPT that's its a real battle and for people that just want to turn in there spare time it would be almost impossible. But something with similar guidelines could help woodturning and woodturners.
No it would not stop people selling inferior work but if something like this could be promoted the buying public would have some kind of stamp of approval.
I'm not for a second saying that it would be hard to set up and take a lot of work, and the probability is that something like this would never be set up, but the posts on here often go back to prices and quality of workmanship so it was just a passing though.
Ed
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Down here in Cornwall, tourism is our biggest industry. In years gone by, tourists often unknowingly bought "locally made" presents that turned out to be made elsewhere. Trading Standards set up the "Made in Cornwall" scheme. They assess producers to ensure that the goods are made in Cornwall and they attempt to use local materials. Other local councils also run such a scheme.
Whilst they do not assess for quality, unless somebody is serious about woodturning, they are not going to bother registering with the scheme and if they are serious, they are probably producing work of at least reasonable quality.
A "Made in Cornwall" sticker on the base of a bowl or other object would be immediately recognisable as a local product. I agree with Graham, who outside woodturning would know what RPT is? The same is certain to apply to any other "guild like" scheme we can think of?
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Change the centre wording to 'Made by a skilled craftsman' and the outside wording to 'Approved by the Association of Woodturners of Great Britain'. ( and make the sticker round :))
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Actually, I like that. The AWGB currently has 'members' It could also have 'licentiate' (sp) 'Associate' and 'Fellow' awarded by submission of work assessed by committee twice a year. Members would flood in.
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awarded by submission of work assessed by committee twice a year. Members would flood in.
If it were only assessed twice a year what would stop the selling of inferior work the rest of the time? also I doubt if members would "flood in" as why pay to sell your stuff when you can sell it, albeit inferior work, for free?
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Hi John. I meant to submit work to earn the qualification of Licentiate, associate or fellow rather than submitting stuff to be sold. Once they are 'qualified' they stick the stickers on themselves. People would join so they could display their 'qualification' and feel justified in charging more.
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Guild as in the Guild of Irish Woodturners - no idea what that offers it's membership towards what is being discussed in this thread, but they are a Guild.
There is the Worshipful Company of Woodturners, one of the Livery Companies, but as I understand it they are the holders of and successor to the Guild of Turners. So there is such an organisation already. Having said that there membership all up is just over 200 and I think membership is by invitation only.
If it is their remit to promote the Craft of Woodturning surely it should be through them that any such certification should be issued. I'm not saying set amateurs and hobbyists against the Professional Turners (RPT), there is a huge difference between the many of us and the few turners who do truly earn their living from turning.
But to be assessed, to be accepted as a turner of a known standard, who is capable of producing work of a certain quality, to be able to display a certificate to that effect from an organisation such as Worshipful Company of Woodturners, that would mean something.
Not some self serving, made up guild.
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Receiving a certification would be very interesting.
Especially for people like myself who have just started out, to be able to know when you have reached a certain level of standard would be very rewarding in itself.
Ryan
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Especially for people like myself who have just started out, to be able to know when you have reached a certain level of standard would be very rewarding in itself.
Ryan
That it would.
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From AWGB Doc 2012
"You should be aware by now that over the last two years the Association have been developing a recognised
Certificate in Woodturning. The bulk of the work on this has been done by Peter Bradwick, AWGB Training
and Development Officer. The first trial was unfortunately delayed to Peter undergoing a minor operation,
but a new date is now anticipated shortly. A second trial, which will be run at the Axminster Skill Centre, is
also anticipated shortly; check Axminster’s website and newsletters for dates.
The Certificate in Woodturning is a huge leap forward for woodturning, and will constitute a nationally
recognised formal qualification in the craft. Plans to have the Certificate ratified by City & Guilds/NVQ are
also under consideration to further enhance the value of the certificate.
Members interested in undertaking the course should indicate their interest to Peter Bradwick in the first
instance."
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All else fails ... http://www.guildmc.com/ (http://www.guildmc.com/) ... http://www.findacraftsman.com/categorytown.aspx?id=1833&searchtext=woodturning+activities (http://www.findacraftsman.com/categorytown.aspx?id=1833&searchtext=woodturning+activities) ....
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http://blog.axminsterskillcentre.co.uk/2013/07/awgb-woodturning-qualification.html (http://blog.axminsterskillcentre.co.uk/2013/07/awgb-woodturning-qualification.html)
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Brian your quite right, if there was something from The Worshipful Company of Turners that would be recognize and promoted that would be something worth doing.
Or as PhilipS as pointed out the AWGB having a certificate in woodturning which is indorsed by City & Guilds. This is what needs to be done if woodturning is to support woodturners.
If things like this were in place we may even see more people take up woodturning which would be great IMHO
Ed
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Some of the best work I have ever seen is made by some one who is not a member of any organisation I know of, and no one else has ever heard of her ... yes HER ! She sets her own incredibly high standards and people who buy her work are judging for themselves , and a "certificate" of an organisation which they have never heard of will make no difference what so ever ! I have seen work by well known turners ( amongst other turners only ) with "accreditations " to their name , which I find uninspiring and of mediocre quality , ( super glued cracks , chucking marks , screw holes filled etc etc )
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Actually, I like that. The AWGB currently has 'members' It could also have 'licentiate' (sp) 'Associate' and 'Fellow' awarded by submission of work assessed by committee twice a year. Members would flood in.
Really? I'd suggest members would leave in droves. To create the system you suggest, the AWGB itself would probably need to re-organise and become an examining body. Who would be on the assessment committee? This would be a highly contentious issue as from the comments made elsewhere on this thread, we would also have some difficulty on agreeing who we consider our peers to be and thus able to accept their decisions.
TWig's comments about a certain turner who is not a member of any organisation should be a lesson to us all. If it's who I think it is, then we should all aspire to emulate her success. Why in that case, do we need an AWGB or indeed any other organisation?? (this may be controversial!)
David
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We take an debate the same old cherry ... Our concern for the lack of others in regard to quality, price ... Does any of these issue give them any concern or have an effect on them and resolve their lack of quality with their work .. They'd as likely not know as to Our concerns nor comments.
The Internet can be a wonderful tool.. should one understand or gain from use it.
As for Our Peers... The Group who judge US ALL amateurs and hobbyists. Will Woodturning ever develop pass a predetermine mindset.
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The only other answer - Indentured Apprenticeships.
There is a certificate at the end of that, now if there was still one for turners!
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[
. If it's who I think it is, then we should all aspire to emulate her success. Why in that case, do we need an AWGB or indeed any other organisation?? (this may be controversial!)
[/quote] ( Paula Nolan ).... No we do not NEED any organisation but it is nice to have them ! ... to share ideas , information ,tips ideas etc with kindred folk ! Nothing wrong with that at all ....in fact a lot of good !
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I said earlier the Irish have a Guild but I don't think it works as we are talking about, more like our AWBG.
I'd ask the question, does and country have a Woodturning Guild that does what this thread seems to be considering?
I must admit, I've never heard of one.
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OK if to qualify as a Turner I'll now need a Certificate in Woodturning ... I'll claim Grandfather Rights as it's coming 20 years since I'd started Turning ... ;D
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Today I attended a meeting that was to do with the certificate in woodturning that Philip alluded to. It has been put together by Peter Bradwick (who has done an awful lot of work on this) as a joint venture between the AWGB and the WCT. Not wishing to pre-empt any announcements I do not wish to say too much at the moment but eventually the accreditation will be there. The Guild in Ireland is similar to the AWGB.
Regarding the need for an association like ours I think things would be a lot different if the AWGB did not exist. The increase in woodturning clubs over the last 2 decades is probably due to the formation of the Association as is the development of the number of turning tools and machines that are about now, it was a different story before the AWGB with people using mill wrights tools and ground down files as the number of specific woodturners tools were a lot less than there is now. Insurance was difficult to get at sensible premiums and you would consider your self lucky to get a book on the subject.
You would also consider yourself fortunate to work for a (joinery) company that had a lathe and could give you the training you needed. In my case a half blind old man who stuck the chisel out in front and started walking towards the lathe only stopping once he had contacted the wood!!
The craft has come on a great deal over the last 20 years and a large part of this is due to the forward thinking of people like Ray Key and Reg Hawthorne to name but 2 who are still involved to this day.
To paraphrase Kennedy, ask not what your Association can do for you but what you can do for it, as you owe it for the hobby that you have today.
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Woodndesign's comment says it all! There needs to be some transitional arrangements otherwise we'll be in trouble.
Good to see Ray & Reg at the WCT event a few weeks ago - both working hard for the cause, as always.
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I don't know if any of you are familiar with the RPS ( Royal Photographic Society ) but they have panels sit every few months to which you submit a body of work and if it meets their criteria they award a distinction LRPS ( Licentiate) ARPS ( associate) or FRPS ( Fellow) according to which one you applied for. They are not qualifications as in the sense of 'you must have them' but it tells people the holder has reached a certain standard and professional photographers would be expected to have at least the LRPS.
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If the number of submissions of work at the various woodturning competitions are anything to go by, I would say that the vast majority of our members have no wish for their work to be assessed, compared or otherwise inspected!
If you look at the aims of the AWGB, assessing or setting standards of work isn't on the list. Development of training standards is so I suggest all those wishing to be "certified" should enroll on the certificate course when it is available.
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All this talk of certificates, City and Guilds, apprenticeships,NVQs is getting me down.
I cannot see what these will do to prevent poor workmanship out in the wider world.
Most of us are hobby turners either in our spare time or retired.
I wonder what the average age of the awgb is. If it is like most clubs then it is more than likely to be quite high (yes I'm over 65).
I already have completed an apprenticeship, memberships of a professional institute etc (although not in woodturning) and would not what to do more training such as NVQs to carry on with my hobby to which I enjoy.
I take pride in the work I turn out, but I believe we will never be able to prevent poor work being sold.
For a younger person with the aims of being a professional turner then I agree certificates and NVQs would be a good route to achieve this and the RPT could insist on it as part of their assessment procedure.
Regards
Ken.