AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: GBF on March 17, 2015, 07:31:57 PM
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Does it make sense in your opinion to have paid tuition.
I have had paid tuition with Don White.Dave register,Les Thorn.Nick Agar and Mark Sanger.
And in July I am having a day with Gary Rance cutesy of the AWGB so that speaks for itself.
Regards George
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Yes, it always paid to have paid tuition - amateurs, hobbyists and professionals alike should. We can all learn something new from each other. My paid tuition came from Frank Clark, Colin Simpson, Greg Moreton and Jimmy Clewes - all were worth every penny.
It's now accepted that anyone going to a pro for tuition should ask if they (the pro) have had any tuition recently.
There's no one that knows it all!
David
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It's now accepted that anyone going to a pro for tuition should ask if they (the pro) have had any tuition recently.
David
Really ?
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Tuition makes sense, whether paid or free.
I don't really care whether the tutor has had recent tuition themselves but what matters is that they can get the message across to the pupil and helps reach the outcome wished for from the start.
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if the customer believes that it was worth paying for tuition then yes it's worth it.
personally i have never had any tuition and i feel competent enough doing what i do at the moment. if i wished to branch out into other areas of turning that i had not yet tried (such as large hollow forms) then i would consider getting either a video or at least watching someone who knew what they were doing.
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George....I've got to where I am without tuition! Is that a good thing? My family think so; but 'No', it is not. I am aware that my learning process is comparatively slow. I make something in a way that I find works for me, then I make it again, and again. Each time that I replicate my work I learn more and more about it, then I move on and try something else. I'm under no delusions here - had I continued to make more and more similar pieces, my technique may well have developed more and more, but it didn't, because I moved on to something else.
Last summer I had the privilege to meet Mark Sanger at his home workshop. The plan was to have a chat and to pick his brain, but Mark saw through my plan, took me to his workshop and, the next thing you know, he had me practicing techniques of gouge control that have since saved me hours of work sanding to compensate for my previous lack of technique.
My answer is simple.....tuition (paid or unpaid) from anyone of a higher skill-level than one's self, is indispensable. The strange thing is that I have been a successful tutor, trainer and teacher for the last 20 years - how come it took me so long to realise that I needed a tutor?
Les
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It makes a lot of sense to have tuition. But remember just because you pay for it doesn't mean it's good.
Not all pros make good tutors,(I am one who finds it difficult to pass on my knowledge) make sure your tutor comes reccommended.
Everyone has to learn the basics first and in my opinion even though there is a huge range of books and videos you can not beat the hands on approach with the help of an expert.
Nobody knows it all and we never stop learning.
I was lucky to be taught, as an aprentice, by my Grandfatherand the fact our family have been woodturners for hundreds of years must help. I had 18 years full time with my Grandfather but am still learning.
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Well said Steve I think that sums it up very well I have had a small amount of tuition but I wish I had more.
Regards John
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To me, the answer is definitely yes, whether paid for or free. I've learnt woodturning from a few lessons in a class and one to one, and also from videos. The direct tuition path to me is always better, whether in a class or one to one. You can learn so much more from a tutor who stands by your side and offers advice as you turn . Malcolm.
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I too was lucky to be shown as an apprentice but that was a long time ago and really it was quite different to the modern techniques practiced these days. Even as a kid I was one of those types that was never afraid to ask questions, sometimes the same question over and again until I understood and I still do it to this day. If I see someone doing something and I want to know about it I will ask, I have to say that not everyone I ask gives me the answer but I ask anyway.
I will ask professional turners and hobby turners as all I am interested in is learning, no matter from whom, and I take is as a compliment if asked by a fellow professional and as a matter of professional curtesy I usually give the answer. MY father used to tell me to never give away my trade secrets to anyone but I think turning is different (he was a joiner)and we do like to share knowledge.
But what if I was asked by a hobby turner? I hear you ask. Well the same principle is applied and I am happy to answer questions (I even encourage demonstration attendees to email me if they want to know something once I have left their club)but there is a thin divide between answering a question and giving a lesson for free!! Apart from that I was never in a position to be able to afford woodturning lessons.
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In my opinion having tuition is a must. The learning process is much quicker and also much safer. When I started turning in the 80's I didn't have the benefit of anyone to teach me so I learned the basics from Keith Rowley's book. Progress was slow as I had no-one to show me where I was going wrong or to show me a better way. Once I found out about courses I went to Craft Supplies and had a weekend with Jamie Walwin. After that experience I have spent time and (sometimes) money with several professional turners including Phil Irons, Jimmy Clewes and the late Bert Marsh. Each of these turners gave me another set of techniques and insights into woodturning but I have also learned a lot from just watching other turners at shows etc and asking questions.This in no way replaces proper tuition but maybe highlights areas where you need help. As Steve said if you pay for your learning you are expecting that the tutor is at least competent to pass on the information you need,and courses are not cheap! Another decision is whether you are happy to be one of several students or have one to one sessions. I both teach and demonstrate and I am always happy to answer questions or demonstrate a technique when I am out and about at shows or demo's ( or by email after a demo ) but as John said there comes a point where an answer becomes a free lesson.
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Something that I remembered today, which makes me in favour of having lessons is when I decided to learn how to chase threads. Now I'm not stupid (STOP GIGGLING GEORGE !!) ;D ;D ;D but trying to learn that from a book was hard work for me. It kept on about striking the thread and to be honest I didn't know what that meant. Now I (obviously) don't put this down to me being a bit thick I put it down to poorly descriptive texts as whoever wrote the book assumed I would know what strike the thread meant. But struggle I did and persevere I did and I can now chase threads.
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I didn't have any lessons but in hindsight, I would have probably found out much quicker you don't use every tool like a scraper if I had! :-)
There are some advantages of teaching yourself too. That way you aren't influenced by one particular way of working. Whether that outweighs the disadvantages is debatable but I guess that depends on what you are trying to learn.
We shouldn't overlook that there are many ways to learn - books, magazine articles, videos, demonstrations and events like the AWGB seminar are good opportunities to learn things we might not otherwise have access to.
One thing that does worry me is the volume of videos on the web that are obviously produced by inexperienced "turners" (I use the term loosely! ;) ) that show dangerous practices. Unfortunately that would be a difficult thing to prevent. I guess until someone gets sued for demonstrating dangerous techniques that cause someone to injure themselves there won't be much of a deterrent.
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In my first comment I said does it pay to have paid tuition so it would suggest if it is paid tuition then it will be with a Pro turner as amateurs do not charge for tuition.
For this reason it would be fair to say that Pro turners are sure to support tuition as this is part of their income and that is obviously true.But that does not alter the fact that tuition is a short cut to accomplishing your goal to be a proficient turner.
But and there is always a but only tuition like experience and practice are good if they are good tuition good experience and good practice.
The important thing when you decide to have tuition is to do your homework and target the tutor that teaches you what you want to learn.
Don't go to a tutor because he is the cheapest go to the best for you,the price will not be that much different and you will possibly get more for your money.
Another thing I think is very important is how many students will be on your course and this will make a big difference to the amount of attention you get.I have had a number of students come to me for tuition and tell me they have been on courses where they are six students to one tutor and they got very little out of it.
I personally will take a maximum of two students so that I can give them plenty of time and keep them safe.
Regards George
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I have had two three day 'paid' tuition, one with turner called Mike Mc Quaid in Wiltshire and one with Chris Childs in Great Yeldham.
I took the first one because I wanted to take up turning and I had not got a clue as to where to start, so I went into a travel agent and asked! They found the one in Wiltshire where I got the three days and full board. One of the things I learnt was that there were woodworking magazines and that people advertised turning classes!
My main reasons were to get started and to see if I could turn before I bought my first lathe. That reason alone makes it an investment worth making. The one with Chris Childs a year or so later was to improve my skills and by then I had questions to ask.
So one reason for paid tuition is to try before you buy! The reasons of tool handling and 'elf and safety were also important. I was also encouraged to make things I would not have tried on my own, a turned box with a well fitting lid was one example.
Twenty years later I ended up as club secretary and I am responsible for booking demonstrators and what are they if not a form of paid tuition?
Along with this I read magazines, now I know there are some, and share tips with my mates.
At the end of the day though, all this is advice and support, the real learning begins when you are alone in your shed with a nice new set of tools a lathe a chuck and a somewhat slimmer wallet!
Ron
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I did have someone come to me for lessons after being to somebody else for lessons. So I popped a piece of wood on the lathe and told him to turn it round and then we would make a start (I can't remember what we were making) he looked at me horrified and said that although he had had 5 or so lessons he had never actually turned apiece of wood!! As George said there are good experiences and........ ::) ::) ::)
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I did have someone come to me for lessons after being to somebody else for lessons. So I popped a piece of wood on the lathe and told him to turn it round and then we would make a start (I can't remember what we were making) he looked at me horrified and said that although he had had 5 or so lessons he had never actually turned apiece of wood!! As George said there are good experiences and........ ::) ::) ::)
Someone ripped him off there. I always make sure that anyone who comes to me for tuition goes away with something they have made no matter what their experience. Personally I don't believe that wood turning, or any other craft can be learned other than by a hands on approach. I would love to have tuition in a number of areas in which I am totally ignorant but anyone worth their salt has to charge sensible charges which quite honestly I cannot afford.
Pete
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We could always do a skill swap Pete.
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In my opinion the cost of good woodturning tuition compared to what most self employed tradesmen charge is very good value.
In my workshop I have approx £20,000 00 of equipment and I charge £120 00 a day for one to one or £180 00 a day two to one including a good lunch and this is about average.
I am a time served bricklayer and as a bricklayer I could earn £1000 00 per week and would need about £100 00 worth of tools.
At the end of last year because I had a knee injury I employed a gardener for two days to sort out some work I could not manage and he charged £160 00 a day.
Regards George
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Hi George
Tuition at £120 a day is good value as you say compared to other trades. Of course when people need a plumber, electrician, bricklayer they need them,!! people generally don't need to do woodturning as it is a hobby, so some see the fee's high just to learn to spin wood. :)
Although from personal experience from how busy we both are with tuition there are still a lot of people out there willing to pay this and much more. The craft center I am resident tutor at has a waiting list, so much so that had to add extra courses through the year, must be my charm :) :) they also run courses from glass making/lamp work to embroidery, jewelry and he list goes on, so I see there is a larger desire for people to learn and keep the older crafts alive which appears to be a growing trend.
Happy days
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I remember a demo by Ray Jones. He started by turning a spindle about 18" long which contained all the elements. I made a full size drawing and we used it as an exercise at our club.
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I agree that the general cost charged for tuition is excellent value. I also agree that tuition is something to be aimed at no matter what level you are at. As my grandmother used to say 'the day you stop learning is the day you're dead.' If I were financially able I would love (for example) to spend time learning the various colouring techniques or threading. Tried both and so far the skill has evaded me. Johns idea of a skill swap is perhaps an answer though what on earth I could teach you John I don't know LOL.
Pete
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You could teach him how to be careful with money Pete you are good at that.LOL
Regards George
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It's funny because if you were to ask me, I'd tell you I was a self taught turner, and I mostly am from books, DVDs, demos and many hours spent at the lathe but, in my early days I had a day with John Berkeley and spent a day playing with boxes, threads and bone work. I have also spent a lot of time with Les Thorne, Gary Rance and Stuart Mortimer on a less formal basis. I am lucky enough to call all of these people friends and I would possibly go so far as to say Gary is something of a mentor, even if he doesn't realise it!
I think it's less about tuition as such, and more about having a thirst for knowledge, so while I don't have formal tuition these days (that's not to say I won't, just I don't have any plans at the moment), I do still attend demos, seminars and read books and magazines on the subject. As you progress there is less new information to learn but by watching demos and reading magazines etc, every so often a little gem will appear which can be hugely helpful.
Cheers
Richard
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George made a point in passing about what students make on a course. If the student is a beginner and you only have 1 day, is the object of a course to have the student leave with as many items as possible ( and have little understanding of how they were made ) or is it better to concentrate on teaching how the tools are used and make only 1 or 2 items but have better understanding of turning. I would like to hear what others who teaching turning would expect to be made on a typical 1 day beginners course.
( I recently had a guy turn up for a 1 day course with me and he wanted to turn a 6kg goldfield burr he had brought which in profile looked like a long handled ladle. He had absolutely no experience of turning and he wasn't happy when I refused, even after I explained about the dangers of dealing with such a piece.).
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Alan raises good points and I know that on the courses I run with George and my own, all are taught safe correct tool use and make only one item in a day normally a bowl as very few ask for spindle turning lessons. It is far more important to learn the correct methods than rushing just to get poorly made projects under the belt.
This has to be offset though by the desire of the students excitement of wanting to produce everything they see in a magazine before they can run. I use to teach Karate to children and adults, the turn over in such disciplines is high as people want to watch a Bruce Lee movie and be given a Black belt.
Very much like Alan's example of the burr.
I fear at times it is the same with craft disciplines. When I am asked how to get good with a tool my advise is to practice each cut a thousand times correctly, and once they think they have got it practice it another thousand times, finally a further thousand cuts should be practiced just to make sure.
I still do this now, spend half an hour most days practicing one part of my specific turning techniques over and over. This of course is of no use if people just practice a poor technique.
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Several months ago I was contacted by a student who had a three day course with a well known company and was very disappointed.
Of course he should have told them that he was not satisfied,
He booked two days with me and I told him to bring with him the stuff he had made on his course.
He showed me three things a bowl approx 6" x 2" a bud vase approx 8" high and a mushroom about 4" high I could not believe what I was seeing these three things represented three days work and they were not even well made.The form on all three was poor and the bottoms were not finished on any of them.
It seems there was six students and one tutor and I know the tutor very well and I know he is a first class very experienced turner and teacher.
So all I can put it down to is the tutor just did not have the time required to give the students the time needed.
This student was all for giving up but had spent a lot of money on equipment and was going to give it one last chance.
On the first day with me he made a bowl about 11" and on the second day I gave him the choice of making another bowl to reinforce what he had learned the day before or do some spindle turning.He opted for doing a second day of bowl turning and made two very respectable bowls.
This meant he went away with three very nice bowls and lots of confidence.
This is just one example of what I consider to be poor value for money and even worse the disappointment of going on a two or three day course and coming away thinking you might never be a woodturner and possibly giving up.
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Whilst I also believe that teaching safe and good tool use is essential I find that some students click straight away, others just don't get it. If possible I try and make sure that they have something that they can take with them that they are happy with as this is in itself encouraging but what they make varies on how quickly they get into it. The student I had the other day was using a skew efficiently within an hour and in fact when using a spindle gouge said he found the skew easier. That was before lunch. In the afternoon he made a bowl and was adamant that he wanted an ogee shape, had to get the curve right and saw tool marks etc for himself. This was someone who had no real experience of turning as such but had done a fair bit of flat work. Other extreme was a student who did two days with me and seemed to be unable to hear what I was saying no matter how many ways or how many time I showed him. How well and how quickly someone learns is partly down to the teacher but also depends on the student. Our jobs as tutors IMHO is to get the best out of the student and have them leave feeling confident, safe and enthusiastic.
Pete
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I personally have not had professional tuition of any sort, though had a few evening class type lessons with a guy who was mostly a carver but also a competent turner ( I supplied him a lot of wood ) and learning the basics was very important .. my main learning reference and inspiration was Robert Chapmans book ... "turning a new approach " which I think is the best book on the subject I have seen . I started about 20 years ago ,so before internet , and the only one who I knew of who gave lessons was Tobias Kaye , but it seemed rather expensive at the time , though in some ways now I wish I had done, but I just enjoyed the learning process myself , It is one thing knowing HOW to do something , than being ABLE to do something !! By that I mean just because an expert shows me how they do it does not mean to say I can !... I think it would be useful to see other turners doing there thing , and how there workshop is set up , sharpening etc , but I am quite happy with the way I do things and what I produce , obtaining great wood and creating something special from it is more important to me than technique and equipment ( although they both help ) It would be great to work with some top of the range lathes etc but then on returning home feeling limited by your own equipment could be a bit deflating ....... George .... did you seek tuition because you really wanted to learn specific things ? or wanted to improve your knowledge / skills with the intention of becoming a full time turner / teacher ? and who would you most like to go for tuition with ? Also I have met a few turners who have spent a lot of money on tools lathes etc ( VB36 ) yet only make small , basic stuff , so in that context tuition is not that expensive .... Terry ..
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I personally have not had professional tuition of any sort, though had a few evening class type lessons with a guy who was mostly a carver but also a competent turner ( I supplied him a lot of wood ) and learning the basics was very important .. my main learning reference and inspiration was Robert Chapmans book ... "turning a new approach " which I think is the best book on the subject I have seen . I started about 20 years ago ,so before internet , and the only one who I knew of who gave lessons was Tobias Kaye , but it seemed rather expensive at the time , though in some ways now I wish I had done, but I just enjoyed the learning process myself , It is one thing knowing HOW to do something , than being ABLE to do something !! By that I mean just because an expert shows me how they do it does not mean to say I can !... I think it would be useful to see other turners doing there thing , and how there workshop is set up , sharpening etc , but I am quite happy with the way I do things and what I produce , obtaining great wood and creating something special from it is more important to me than technique and equipment ( although they both help ) It would be great to work with some top of the range lathes etc but then on returning home feeling limited by your own equipment could be a bit deflating ....... George .... did you seek tuition because you really wanted to learn specific things ? or wanted to improve your knowledge / skills with the intention of becoming a full time turner / teacher ? and who would you most like to go for tuition with ? Also I have met a few turners who have spent a lot of money on tools lathes etc ( VB36 ) yet only make small , basic stuff , so in that context tuition is not that expensive .... Terry ..
the internet is 24 years old.
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....... George .... did you seek tuition because you really wanted to learn specific things ? or wanted to improve your knowledge / skills with the intention of becoming a full time turner / teacher ? and who would you most like to go for tuition with ? Also I have met a few turners who have spent a lot of money on tools lathes etc ( VB36 ) yet only make small , basic stuff , so in that context tuition is not that expensive .... Terry ..
Hi Twig .
Everything I have done in life I have wanted to be very good at it and having created several very successful bushiness at fifty five years old I decided to retire from business and be a professional woodturner that was 12 years ago.
If you read the beginning of this thread you will see that I have had tuition from a number of Pro turners each one targeted to teach me the bit of turning that they specialise in.
Who would I like to have tuition from a week with Richard Raffan would be good.
I do not own a VB36 i don't see the point in them I think a lot of turners own them because the see them as a status symbol.
I hope this has answered all of you questions
Regards George
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Thanks for the reply George ... good reasons !! Seventh devil ... maybe the internet is 24 years old , but I doubt there was much about turning on it then ... and I have only had it for about 4 years now Terry..
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When I have a student they usually make a bowl the first time. I think most do. When asked what the secret to becoming a good woodturner is I answer that there are two things guaranteed to make you a good turner, one is sharp tools the othet is years of practice, that's all.
Terry you asked George who he would like to have tuition from? I would dearly have loved to have had tuition from Bill Jones, he was a true master of woodturning.
I also think it would have been good to have lessons from Bert Marsh, I saw him demonstrate once and he was incredible.
Mark you say about the practice you did, as an apprentice when they were machining windows they would always run extra glazing bars out so that the apprentices could practice scribing joints or halving joints or whatever. As an instructor in the forces they had standardised methods for teaching/learning, it was..........Watch my demonstration, listen to my explanation, learn by imitation and PAY ATTENTION!! ;D ;D ;D
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Hi John.
I was going to say Bert Marsh but I was not sure it it would be taken as I would have meant it.
I see an opportunity for another good topic
Regards George
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There is no point in asking Pro turners if they believe tutoring is good. That is like asking turkey farmers if they believe in Christmas. I am an amateur in every sense of the word and can count my experience in months rather than years. The obvious answer is yes but I am not really sure that it is something you should do to quickly I have been teaching myself, almost entirely from youtube ( which is great but you need to be selective ). I can now produce a bowl and a spindle but have discovered the things I still need to know.
I would benefit from a day or two with a tutor who would show me ( in close up ) the correct use of a bowl gouge and skew. I would not care if there was anything to take home or not, I have got past that.
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I think if your an amateur turner,belonging to a good club that has demo`s and hands on days/evenings you will learn as much as paying for private tuition from a "professional turner",there are so many good club turners,some even world famous turners who give great advice even down to how to hold a tool properly,how to put the right amount of pressure on the tool so you can get a shaving that`s finer than lace after doing roughing cuts with the same tool.I thought I could turn ok till I joined Fairlop woodturners,then I found I was quite bad at it,but after 3/4 yrs there got so much great advice and tuition it made all the difference,I`ve since moved to Norfolk and go to to great clubs up this way,both of which have some really marvelous turners always willing to impart advice and help when it is needed,I do think demonstrators help allot to,as you can pick their brains in the intervals and get advice that way ,apart from getting techniques from them while watching them demonstrate,cheers,
Eric.
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You shouldn't think it is just amateur or hobby turners that learn by being a club member. Nothing springs to mind now but I do know that I have been taught a thing or two by club members who just do it for fun.
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oh no,I think all can learn from them