AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Les Symonds on November 05, 2014, 09:02:35 AM
-
I'm not sure where i want this thread to go - perhaps I just need a rant, but lets see what happens next.
I sell a small amount of stock through an outlet that is owned and operated by a national organisation that set firm standards when I first approached them. When I turned up with my first batch of stock ( just 7 items, as I recall) they were a bit skeptical about the price that I was charging, saying that I was probably pricing myself out of their market. Sales are steady, but slow, which is sort-of ok, because I'm not able to produce a lot of stock whilst I'm on the road to recovery after the accident, and it gets my stuff out there where it will hopefully be noticed.
So here's the rant! On the weekend we visited the venue and were shocked by what we saw on sale. Pete M. J. is going to love this bit....tea-light candleholders made by simply sawing 3" logs into 4" lengths, and drilling a shallow hole in one end, just big enough for the tea-light to sit in. OK, it's not in direct breach of fire-safety regs because the aluminium pot provides the non-flamable material that the law requires, but you ask any fire-safety officer what he/she thinks, and you'll be told in no uncertain terms. And guess what; they were priced at around £10 each.
Next came oak chopping boards, I hate that one! One of them was a simple, waney edged piece of oak, about 10" x 10" and 1" thick. The pith was running along one surface and the board had cupped severely, such that it if you put it flat on the shelf, the edges almost laid flat (it had also twisted), but the centre-line was over 1" up in the air. At each of the 4 corners was a hole and there were 2 pieces of twine threaded through, one at each end, as carrying handles. It was £50, all but a penny.
On another shelf there was a beautiful painting of 2 birds on a waney edged piece of board. It really was a fine piece and skilfully painted. However, the artist felt the need to call it a clock, so he'd stuck a quartz mechanism behind it and glued a 4", bright-and-shiny brass plated chapter ring on to the front, with Roman Numerals - hardly sympathetic to the otherwise-natural feel of the piece. The hands were even worse! they were bright-and-shiny brass plated, Serpentine hands, but they were for an 8" clock face. The flipping hands (I'm getting cross, now) were so big that the shop manager had to take the battery out of the clock because, whilst sat on the shelf, the hands were too big to go around. I won't tell you how much they were asking....it's immoral.
None of this makes any sense to me!
Les
-
Welcome to the works of the crafting junk makers Les. T light holders without a glass or metal insert are very dangerous, chopping boards in oak are going to go black very quickly unless the user has not steel knives, clocks, if made with good quality mechanisms and hands are going to be expensive but so many are made with the cheap stuff. The hands are flimsy and bend easily, and like your example many are made to be twee. If it were me I would take my work out of the outlet and tell them that I don't want my work associated with that sort of junk. I would probably be a bit more diplomatic than that though....just. One of the reasons I don't do craft fairs is because so many are full of that sort of work. One I used to do had a wood turner who did nothing but bowls, all the same shape, decent quality workmanship but they were being sold for less than the cost of the wood quite often. Oh how I wish I had the money to set up a decent quality gallery which sold only top quality work and design.
Yep you're right Les, I love it LOL
Pete
-
Wow just Wow.
-
I obviously don't know, but suspect that the owner of this gallery had high hopes of setting up just what Pete describes and then got hit by the fact that you just cannot sell enough quality stuff to survive.
But i could be wrong.
-
I obviously don't know, but suspect that the owner of this gallery .....
I obviously don't want to identify the premises, but this is not a gallery. It is in a small complex of facilities, including a cafe, information centre, souvenir shop, etc. There is some good quality stuff there, but I just cannot get over the tat that some people try to pass off as quality craft/art work.
Les
-
Sometimes you get people that look at something and say "I can do that it's easy!"
More often than not they can't but they sell them anyway to people who know no better.
I have been shown some items in person that I thought looked very unfinished, The person was super proud of them though.
I wouldn't have been but I'm just anal and over critical of my own work.
Ryan
-
I'm just anal and over critical of my own work.
...and that's not a bad thing. It's just a shame that there are people out there who have such a low expectation of quality that they are happy to settle for less. Keep being anally critical, Ryan.
Les
-
Les,
I think we are all 100% behind your rant. We've all seen some of the stuff sometimes cobbled together and sold in that sort of outlet.
I'm still reeling from the cost of a few bit's of driftwood, drilled and stacked on a bit of rusty wire and sold as 'Driftwood Christmas Tree's', but people buy them, so they must be happy with them.
And as for 'us' turners, last Christmas I saw a turner selling her wares, all except one item was nothing more than 'turned wood'. The one item was well turned, and had a design, balanced proportions and looked good enough to buy, but her stand was crowded with people all parting with hard earned money.
Rant away, but put your prices and and keep taking the money!
-
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
>:( Calm down Les or you will do your self a mischief. Now you know why I sometimes ( very rarely in >:(
>:( fact these days) get sooooooooooooo angry with the absolute ********* ****** >:( >:(
>:(Warning language like this is not allowed !![/color that is put out there >:(
>:( dayscalm down, take a deep breath, go down the shed and turn something of >:( >:quality.
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
-
It has to be remembered that nobody moaned about the quality of the Austin 7 until the Polls Royce came along. Maybe they all haven't seen really good turning.
-
So after Les's rant and most if not all of us agreeing with it the question we should now ask ourselves is this:-
What can we do to change people's attitude to hand turned work?
-
So after Les's rant and most if not all of us agreeing with it the question we should now ask ourselves is this:-
What can we do to change people's attitude to hand turned work?
Those of us selling should make sure that we don't just sell bowls as I get fed up seeing tables full of the things at firs etc. Also charge prices that reflect the work, design and skill involved. £15 for a 12" bowl in an exotic wood is ridiculous IMHO and yet it is not untypical of the sort of prices some charge. We are selling a craft, a skill, imagination etc not just a lump of useful wood.
Got other ideas but have to dash so will maybe come back on this, Bit f a hobby horse for me I'm afraid LOL
Pete
-
While I have no particular intention of setting up 'shop' it is also a hobby horse of mine and I am wondering if it is in the right 'category'. I occasionally watch 'craft' shows on tv and, even more occasionally, call in at a craft fair and what I see is cards with bits of other card stuck on it, or stencil / stamped out stuff glued on it. Or maybe easy cut scroll saw stuff, very simple wooden toys, or hand/home made teddy bears and dolls, sewn cushion covers etc etc.
Now, maybe I am going to get shot down for this, its happened before, but another way of saying all of the above is that I see stuff the teachers used to give us to do to keep us quiet at school. i.e Kids stuff.
Bowls and such like can be brought cheap in sainsburys et al so stay away from them, make showy stuff ( call it art if you must ), sell it off stands in shopping malls, or anywhere other than craft fairs, and sell it for good money. The more you charge the less you need to sell.
I am not sure who first said it but there is an old adage when asked what it is for the answer is 'to enhance your living space' Make stuff that is ornamental, can start conversations, looks expensive, and will fit in modern homes.
Would it work ? Probably not, but you have to get away from this 'craft' thing.
-
I think the card craft stuff you are referring too is called découpage the art of sticking paper onto other bits of paper. :)
My Mum did it when I was a kid.
I'm ok with most craft things "only if" they are well made and not just thrown together by someone with zero artistic skill just to make a quick 50p.
My wife makes knitted and crocheted things clothes/teddies/blankets and even though it drives me insane she is damn good at it.
Ryan
-
This has now moved on to something that annoys me. There was a time that to be 'a craftsman' was something to be proud of. I would rather be a craftsman than an artist.... However.... These days the word 'craft' is people who make cards or dried flowers etc etc. in my view, craft has been hijacked by them and so now turners are trying to avoid being associated with craft at any cost.
As for your experience with the shop, les, it sounds like you proved to the owner that wood products can sell at a reasonable price, so he's stocking more wood products (a good thing you'd think...) but not being a wood person he doesn't know good from bad, so everything gets a high price tag, which is nearly as bad as undercharging!! Nightmare!
Education is the key I think. When pros go to clubs and are asked to judge the show table you should tell people (gently and tactfully) how to improve their work! Then we get on to judging people's work.... Oh the rant could go on...........
Richard
-
It isn't just wood turning, Mo makes sterling silver jewellery using semi precious stones, coral, pearls etc and makes some really lovely pieces but has virtually stopped trying to sell through any craft fairs as there is so much cheap beaded stuff that sells for peanuts. I do an event at the American Museum in Bath coming up to Christmas and virtually all of the people there are quality crafters or artists. It is lovely watching people coming in and seeing their faces as they are confronted with the work on display. Literally jaw dropped for some. Wish there were more venues like it.
Pete
-
Pete,
I hear what your saying.
One of the events I do has 2 jewellery tables. One is as you say, a few beads strung together, to my eye's, fairly haphazardly.
The other is run by 2 ladies and they weave beads into wonderful designs, I even bought one for SWMBO.
A couple of shows ago we got onto the pricing of work as a discussion, I explained about wood cost + time + etc. = my price. They were amazed, some of their pieces can take 15+ hours to make and as you can guess, their prices don't equate to an equivalent cost/time.
-
Wish there were more venues like it.
A little over a year ago I joined a craft association, based on the info they gave out, which declared that all members had to manufacture their own work - nothing bought in etc. They claimed that standards would be set very high and only quality work would be displayed/sold at their craft fairs. I had to go through a vetting process, with samples of my work being submitted for the selection committee's examination. I got in, then visited one of their fairs. What a disappointment - the fair was a washout and was pretty much populated by stands selling low quality, low skilled work. Yes, there was the odd stand selling better stuff, but much of it was made using industrial processes. On a day when the town in which the fair was held was bustling with locals and thousands of tourists, the craft fair was desperately quiet. Either people weren't bothering to even look, or they were getting as far as the door, gazing in and moving on. Needless to say, I did not renew my membership.
So what point am I making.....it's this....when a so-called high-quality craft association gets it this wrong, we've got quite a struggle on our hands to change attitudes. I agree wholeheartedly with Richard's discussion about the change in use of the term 'Craftsman', but we must accept that language is dynamic. In all walks of life we see terminology changing as the next generation comes along and misuses a word, which then becomes commonplace in its new meaning, and consequently inappropriate in its former meaning. When I was in teacher training college, back in the 70s, pupils with what we now call a Learning Disability were then called 'Educationally Sub Normal'. At the time it was not an offensive term, but it fell into misuse, became offensive and thus had to change. Perhaps we should release the term 'Craft' and concentrate on the term 'Art' - or at least until that term becomes misused and ends up meaning something quite different.
Les
-
It is very hard to differentiate between art and craft and I am not sure that we should try. Turners such as Richard are highly skilled and perfectly capable of making artistic pieces as far as the skill level is concerned but it isn't where he chooses to go. To my mind the work that he does with his renovation and replication is every bit as valuable as anything done by an 'artistic' turner. I personally feel that part of the problem is that we are all guilty of down playing the skill and ingenuity needed to create in wood. I would guess that the vast majority of people who don't do wood turning in this country are pretty ignorant of the fact that it is even done. I am for ever being asked at shows "Do you make this yourself?" despite having a banner saying "Bodrighy Wood, Wood Turner." If we go to a gallery to try and get our work there do we go with a cap in hand attitude trying to persuade the owner to stock it or do we go looking to see if the gallery is fit to have our work? Arrogant? Not really when you see the sort of thing that is often in galleries. Whether you call yourself an artist, a crafts person or both, as a wood turner you are someone who creates, be proud of it and let Joe Public know that it is something special.
Oops now I am ranting LOL.
-
be proud of it and let Joe Public know that it is something special.
Words to work by, IMHO
-
I have a Bachelor of Arts Degree so that in itself qualifies me as an Artist but I don't class myself an Artist.
If you display your work in an "Art" Gallery for sale you are an Artist no if, and, buts or maybes whether you choose to call yourself that or dislike the title.
Sorry if that seems a bit harsh but displaying your work in that setting automatically puts you in that category.
My Art is Digital Games and although they have only just been recognised as an art form in the last couple of years people have been making beautiful artwork in Games since they started making Games in the 60's.
It is hard to decide what is classified as art.
(http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2007/08/31/31Hirst_skull_narrowweb__300x430,2.jpg)
Anyone know this guy?
Mr Damien Hirst and his $122'000'000 Diamond Encrusted Skull is deemed by many as the pinnacle of art but its nothing more than a Human Skull with Diamonds Stuck on it.
Is it Art? To most it is.
It is a beautiful piece but I wouldn't say it is art, Well not in the same way that I would call a Da'Vinci or a Van Gough or a Monet art.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that is true for all Art and even in Nature, A little known fact for you.
Did you know that no-one ever sees the same rainbow? Not even stood side by side with your faces pressed together.
The light refracts at different rates so from every angle the colours appear slightly different.
Slightly off topic and long winded but my point is everyone has a different view of art.
Sorry for the rant and sorry if I offended anyone.
Ryan
-
Ooh! ooh! that makes me an artist then. ;D So Ryan, you of all people (well the ones here anyway) should be able to tell us how to get woodturning accepted as art (should this be on another thread?) Can someone be an artist without any qualifications? and if so does that p*** you off 'cos you studied to be one? The same way as anyone that has a hammer can call them selves a carpenter without having to serve an apprenticeship.
-
Art surely comes from the imagination, the thought that goes into a piece as much as the skill in doing it? As Ryan says tastes differ and we don't all like the same sort of thing. I love oriental work (in general not all of it) and am not keen on some of the so called art work like DH's. One of my friends is one of the countries top furniture designers and his work is amazingly innovative, he can't draw for toffee though and has to get someone to do the sketches and the drawings for him. Who is the 'artist' him or the one who draws it for him? I may be wrong here but I think that most people could go to college and learn to draw or paint but being able to do it in a way that uses imagination and is something special is something that not everyone has. Within woodturning I think that it is a case of promoting the things we do as art, as something of beauty that is the hard part and yet something that we all need to do. How many of us promote our work to anyone other than other turners or wood workers?
Seeing some of the pieces you are making now John I would say that you are certainly veering towards the artistic side though your background is very much that of the craftsman.
Pete
-
I don't call myself an Artist I make things that I enjoy making not for other people to enjoy although it is a nice feeling to have good feedback. :)
I do it because it's fun and it keeps my mind occupied.
I personally would define Woodturning as an Art but it has to be accepted by the masses as Art, best way to do that is to plaster it everywhere and have it shared worldwide.
If you roughly turn a log into something that resembles a candle stick that wouldn't be classed as Art.
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/012/1/6915402/il_340x270.448075382_4qjt.jpg)
But if you took 45 different species of wood and glued them individually into a blank, then painstakingly turned it down over many hours/days/weeks into a very beautiful, decorative, intricate candlestick it then becomes more like Art. Or at least it would be viewed by a wider audience as Art you'd still have the Nay sayers that would call it just a lump of wood.
(http://st.houzz.com/simgs/f90106c002428411_4-0899/traditional-candles-and-candle-holders.jpg)
If any of you know of Banksy the Graffiti Artist his work is stunning for something that is still considered to this day to be vandalism.
Some of his pieces have been removed/stolen wall and all to be sold at auction. Then you have the Vandals who write obscenity on walls and call it Graffiti.
All Art Forms have both good and bad, Good and Bad in both the work and the Artists themselves.
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0181/4961/files/130222144630-banksy-slave-labour-story-top.jpeg?751)
I don't get annoyed by anyone who considers themselves an Artist I say good on you and if you work is visually appealing I will congratulate you on a job well done.
What does P*** me off though is Artist's trained or untrained that are complete pompous A-Holes who think that they are better than everyone else.
There is no need for it and the world could do without people like that in my opinion.
I am just me and I don't consider myself more or less than anyone else regardless of who they are.
My skill level may be the higher than Joe public or lower then very talented Guys and Gals on here but that doesn't make me a better or worse person it makes me human.
Sorry for high jacking the original post these views are my personal opinion and again sorry if I offend anyone.
Ryan
-
Sorry for high jacking the original post these views are my personal opinion and again sorry if I offend anyone.
Ryan
Not at all, Ryan....it's a valid comment and it's certainly in keeping with the general theme of the thread. thanks for your views.
Les
-
A couple of years ago I applied for a lottery grant for my woodturning club. We were turned down because our work was deemed to be "Art" and advised to apply to the Arts Council for support, I have lost count of the number of other woodturning clubs with a lottery grant I have seen in the Woodturner
Ron
-
If you roughly turn a log into something that resembles a candle stick that wouldn't be classed as Art.
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/012/1/6915402/il_340x270.448075382_4qjt.jpg)
Sorry for high jacking the original post these views are my personal opinion and again sorry if I offend anyone.
Ryan
They've not got liners ... :o ...
-
If you roughly turn a log into something that resembles a candle stick that wouldn't be classed as Art.
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/012/1/6915402/il_340x270.448075382_4qjt.jpg)
Sorry for high jacking the original post these views are my personal opinion and again sorry if I offend anyone.
Ryan
They've not got liners ... :o ...
I saw that but bit my tongue LOL
Pete
-
There not mine guys just found them online and used to image to help my point. :)
-
The original question as raised was quality and the outlet selling, firstly the outlet involved, as later highlighted more a general mixed gift/coffee shop and more varied on the goods for sell, good & bad, and possibly an interest in making a small profit as well as filling a gap and offering a service to diplay items for those wishing to sell what they make. Case is what do you do if committed to supplying them and their standards or regard to quality drops. How likely is it to effect what they sell of your work if at all.
The second extreme case as John BHT found was 'I deal in £600+ items' with a Gallery, did He stop to check the quality or worth of the said £600+ items.
As depicted in the (I hope are internet stock) pictures are candle holders without liners, as often mentions these are seen being on sale. At best it would be with both concern for safety, if not on quality, it should be brought up with the Seller there and then as to where you're failing to comply with safety alone. It is most unlikely as it gets debated here, as on any Forum that this individual will ever read nor get to know of the unsafe items they're try to sell nor quality, pricing etc etc
Should we find something we consider as being wrong, for the interest of the advancement of Turning we'd need to express that concern.
Cheers David
-
here's my 2bob's worth and maybe at a bit of a tangent.....
I am very new to the world of turnning(a few months). so am still more of a outsider than most of you. I stopped going to craft fairs etc. because I was sick to death of going to stall after stall selling rubbish!!!!( and most of the people I spoke too feel the same). if I am going to buy something hand made I expect it to be better than a chimpanze with a pen knife could manage!!!
And there lays the issue, decent stuff costs decent money. why because it takes years to become good enough to make stuff to sell, and be proud of. however most "sellers" want quick cash and any old tat will do. and as "customers" we all now want a bargain, and if that means an inferior product but we save a couple of quid we go for it!!! in a way it is self perpetuating. not right but thats how it seems. and to be honest until i became involved with turning a "ok "piece for a £1 was a better bargain than a "good" piece for £3. because of my ignorance of what is involved in the process etc. i have made stuff, wands pens etc. which whilsh I am happy with at this stage in my turning I would not deem good enough to sell. How do I know this ? Well when finished I think about how much it should sell for , TIME,MATERIALS,ETC. and would I pay that for it.....at the moment NO!!!
luckly I am a member of northbucks turners and go everey saturday I can, there are some wonderful turners there ,that also keeps me grounded
-
I am very new to the world of turning(a few months). so am still more of a outsider than most of you.
.....you're wrong there; you're a member of this group and you are therefore most definitely not an outsider. We are not exclusive in any way and just because you'r new to turning, it does not mean that you're on-the-outside. ;)
Les
-
New to turning means new ideas and new viewpoints, saves us oldies getting in a rut if we aren't already there LOL.
Pete
-
Hi Teddyt,
I agree with Les & Pete Welcome to the Forum.
Regards John
-
aww!! thanks guys
-
Yes. I agree. Welcome to the forum, The only exclusive part is that we are all wood turners, some a lot better and more experienced that others, but that does not stop us sharing ideas and experiences and learning together. So welcome to the club and please feel free to add comments as you wish. Malcolm.
-
What he^^^^ said with an added....some are better looking than others. ;D ;D ;D