AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Myturn on August 24, 2021, 04:28:35 PM
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Hi all…
So how much should we charge for commission of a 6” standard turned oak bowl.
Let’s not include the wood as the customer brought a length of 8x4” oak beam :)
Thanks…Colin.
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Factor in your time and consumables
Hourly rate, sand paper , sanding sealer , Finnish etc
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Factor in your time and consumables
Hourly rate, sand paper , sanding sealer , Finnish etc
Thanks Wood spinner…
I was thinking £20 per hour, consumables included.
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How many experienced professional services would be £20 per hour? For example, could you get a plumber or a car mechanic for that?
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Thanks Paul
Yes that makes my £20 an hour sound more than reasonable, although I’m not a complete professional but I’m told my work is of high standard and that’s why I was commissioned. I just find myself feeling awkward that the bowl I turned took 3 hours from start to finish and £60 sounds a lot. Maybe I just undervalue myself and I’m a little bit behind the times. We forget how much we paid for our lathe and tools, bandsaw or chainsaw, consumables, even the electric for good lighting, heating and equipment, it all makes up the costs. Maybe I should just charge even more.
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If you try amd charge the same rates as a plumber etc you won't get many sales. £20 an hour is reasonable for basic work, you also need to think of percieved value which can make a lot of difference to cost. A 6" bowl on oak won't seem of less value to a buyer than the same bowl in an exotic material for example. For the sized bowl that you are doing with wood provided then charge for the time it takes say an hour plus around 50% for consumables and cost of electricity etc. Don't go either the route of those that just charge for cost of materials or those who ask for silly money.
I am speaking as somone who earns their living doing this by the way
Pete
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In reality most of us make things for the pleasure of it and rarely sell for the true cost of making the item. Your potential customer/s have a limit on what they are prepared to pay and that is what you have to find and decide if it meets your expectations.
The experts / professionals can finish an item in less than a quarter of the time most of us can and have to charge a figure that I would walk away from to make it viable. I have listened to the publics comments and mutterings in the tents at fairs where there are some exceptional turnings on show/for sale and many seem to fail to appreciate what it takes to put the item on the table. To be honest that has put me off going down the craft fair route.
Here's hoping you get a fair price for your efforts and skills and it will bring you repeat sales in the future
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This is an ongoing argument tht i gave up trying to win years ago. I even wrote an article about it and got some oretty nasty emails telling me to butt out and they would charge whatever they want. I agree that someone who perhaps hasn't ben turning for long would take much longer and it would be unrealistic to charge for all the time but bottom libe my problem has always been that the public percieve something that sells cheap as cheap. I do a lot of higher end craft fairs and wood turning is all too oftenb seen as the poor re;lative. Ceramics, glass, metalwork sell for 3 or 4 figures no problem. As lng as people keep selling wood at rock bottom proces that is hpw the public will percieve the craft, a cheap option. There has to be a happy medium but lso a sense of pride in our craft that values it coerrectly.
Pete
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This is always a problem for hobby turner or semi professional or full time professional. To me a hobby turner might do the odd commission and not include any income. The semi profisional keeps records income and expenditure and would include any profit on tax return . The full time professional records all income expenditure have set charges knowing how long each commission etc would take, if artistice input is required than that would be discussed with client. Paul thinks £20 per hour is not right which I agree, you think it would take you 3 hours so £60.00 but Paul may be able to turn an 8in bowl in an hour so £60 an hour is realistic .
I have a rule if any I am asked to do some turning. I have a minimum charge of £40.00 and then tell them If you want me to proceed the cost would be £xxx if you want finish that take extra time the cost would be £xxx plus . Agree a price before you accept the commission. Accepting commission before telling the client the price is not a road we should not go down either party can be upset.
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Thank you all…
The cost wasn’t mentioned by either of us, I think my customer assumes it will be cheap as he supplied the wood, but cheap isn’t right, so I feel I should put the ball in his court and ask him how much he thinks it’s worth. I now realise that the price should of been discussed and agreed prior, I will just call it a tlurning curve…again! ;)
Colin :)
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I have to agree with Pete, selling for cost or worse below cost devalues the trade for everyone.
Breaking down your £60 in real terms as selling a piece you made through a shop, you would get £30, the shop £18 and the tax man £12.
From your £30 you have a blank which would cost you £10 (not just the blank price, you either fetch it or pay delivery). You may be able to shave that a little but not a lot.
So for £20 you have to pay for your tools and consumables and your time.
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Also this would be a bespoke 1 off turning , You can ask if he has any design ideas making it a custom piece
Don't de value , Go in at a worthwhile cost
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Let’s not get lost in the thread as I am charging £60 to turn and finish an oak bowl and the customer supplied the wood. It took me 3 hours and a professional would take say one hour, so I don’t think I’m undercharging, I’m just a lot slower than the pro and that’s my fault and not the customers, also I will be more than happy with this amount.
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Let’s not get lost in the thread as I am charging £60 to turn and finish an oak bowl and the customer supplied the wood. It took me 3 hours and a professional would take say one hour, so I don’t think I’m undercharging, I’m just a lot slower than the pro and that’s my fault and not the customers, also I will be more than happy with this amount.
Sounds fair to me. In fact to be honest more than I would charge but if you can get that good for you. Defiitely not undercharging LO.
Pete
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Just to confuse things a bit, one way of costing your work is to have a formula. It does not work all of the time but as a rule of thumb it gives you a ball park figure. So a 6" x3" bowl would work like this. 6X3 =18 and then double it =36. Do it with a 2" bowl say 10" in diameter and it looks like this 10X2= 20 (X2) =40.the same diameter but 3" deep would come out at 60. so a rule of thumb here.
I echo the comments made about this. and would add do not undervalue your skills.
Of course everything revolves around quality.
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In my experience, BHT, there are a surprising number of potential buyers out there to whom there are far more important things than quality. My sister, for instance, has a large collection of lace bobbins bought at various fairs. Some are beautifully made and some just aren't. I was shocked at this disparity and asked her to show me which, in her eyes, were the best. Colour, design, where she bought it, who she was with and how good a day it had been all appeared to be more important to her than turning quality. So, to her anyway, her collection is based more on memories.... rather like a postcard of a favoured holiday... than quality of the workmanship displayed. It appears to me that its only through another woodyturners eye that quality comes first.
I am aware that this thread was built around a commission but someone ought to point out that all the formulii in the world wont get you Harrods prices at a village fete. Nor gallery prices at a car boot sale. There is far more to this subject than time and consumables. thats why some things in this world just cannot be made viable and why most companies feel the need to have an expensive marketing department!
Brian
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The Bowler Hatted Turner…
Well that’s all interesting but I’m a simple man (quite literally) in fact I have a job writing so the formula ideal ain’t gunna work…I’ll just have a guesstimate :D
Brian…
This makes a lot of sense, especially that the novice really doesn’t look at that ever so slight tear-out on my bottom.
So if my customer looks very happy with it then we could price adjust at point of sale ;)
Thanks for all your comments :)
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Out of interest, MyTurn, it would be good to see a photo of the bowl and to hear what your client thought regarding price :)
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I was asked to make 3 plates/platters for someone who knew my prices for things. We did not discuss prices and I assumed he would pay what I asked for, incorrectly obviously now. As I knew him well I gave a discount and asked for
£75 for all three. From the look on his face I could see he was shocked. I eventually agreed £60 for them and still waited a long time for the money. Lesson learnt. Agree a price beforehand.
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Or don't take commisions! Just make stuff and offer it for sale at your chosen price. A straight yes please or wallk away and no disappointment to either party!
Brian
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If I do commissioned work I always ask for at least a 50% deposit unless it is something I can easily sell on. That way I cover basic costs at least and it makes sure the buyer knows what it will cost. Never assume that someone will be ahppy to pay ypour price, especially family and friends who often assume a discount.
Pete
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Whilst not directly comparable, Pete raises a valid point regarding friends and family expecting discounts, particularly if whatever it is you do for them is the way you earn your living. They are the people who are most aware that the service they want is the way you make your daily crust and should, perhaps, be the ones who are happy to pay. While it's nice to be able to offer them a discount, it can become something of a dilemma.
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Before I started turning, I was in the computer business, had to start a £20 a question policy in the pub to have an evening out with my friends without working! Turning, building, computting, any trade has the same issue with friends and family wanting free services.
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Brian H although I see what you are saying I still believe that quality should be a major part of any craft. I know there are cheap imported goods that can be as good as if not better than some but as craftsmen and craftswomen I think we should strive to produce the best quality item that our individual skills allow, otherwise how will our skills improve?More to the point if we do not do that the quality that is acceptable generally will fall, and that surely is not a good thing.
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I agree with John that it should always be a matter of personal pride to produce the best quality work we can irregardless of what it is being sold for. Every time we sort our stock out for a new show something ends up in the wood basket as we realise it isn't good enough. Selling a bowl for £500 at a gallery ( it happens) is possible perhaps if we are 'a name' or it is something very special but it shouldn't be because it is a better quality than the £25 one sold at the church fete.
Pete
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I couldn't agree more!
The point I was trying (and failing) to make was that your average potential customer isn't poking fingers inside vessels or checking bases for chucking evidence or sanding lines .... its only fellow woodyturners who get their kicks this way..... in my experience anyway!
Brian
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As I keep trying to tell people if we are selling our work it is non turners we need to impress not other turners.
Pete
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On another forum someone was asking about the hourly rate of garages, apparently they were charged £190 an hour! I saw an open segmented turning at a craft shop for £550 some years ago which seemed reasonable as it must have contained hundreds of small pieces glued together. Pretty sure it must have taken more than three hours to make!
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Hi all…
So how much should we charge for commission of a 6” standard turned oak bowl.
Let’s not include the wood as the customer brought a length of 8x4” oak beam :)
Thanks…Colin.
Update…
I told my customer the bowl was £60 and he gave me £70 I will upload a picture eventually.
I was thinking of putting the ball in their court and asking the customer how much they thought it was worth or how much they’d like to pay.
Would this work at all?
Thanks Myturn…Colin
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Thanks for the update. It would be nice to see that photo when you've got time to upload it. Seems like it all worked out in the end :)
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Myturn I think putting the ball in their court and asking them to suggest how much they should pay is a sure fire way of becoming disillusioned with turning. If your work is good enough to sell put a value on your skill.
In reply to Bill21 one of the ways I price my segmented turnings is to charge a set amount per segment. This is not so far out as you might at first think. When I had my own joinery shop I would price up shop and garage counters by the foot run and just multiply it up, anything special was worked out individually but as a rule of thumb the cost per foot run worked out well. So a piece of segmented turning with say 50 pcs in could be charged at £2 each piece. I have charged as much as £17 per segment on some pieces depends on the work involved making each piece or each ring.
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One professional tur er I know frequently asks for a ridiculous price for work he really doesn't want to do and is often sur[rised top have the customer simply say 'OK'
Pete
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One professional tur er I know frequently asks for a ridiculous price for work he really doesn't want to do and is often sur[rised top have the customer simply say 'OK'
Pete
I have done the same with the same result, I have also under priced things to get rid of them only to have then left on the shelf.
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We rarely drop the price and have found that eventually someone somewhere will like it. Having said that it is not unknown for us to feed pieces into the log basket as we see that they aren't up to scratch in hindsight.
Pete
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Many many (many) years ago I made an Ash platter and coloured it with green food dye. I then sanded it until all I was left with was green in the grain, I have to say it looked absolutely hideous!! I carted it around the shows for about 2 and a half years each time threatening to cut it in half and burn it but my OH kept saying some one would like it. Eventually I was accepted into a co-operative and the first piece out of the box was this bit as I loaded up the shelves.Surprise surprise!! it was the first piece that sold which just goes to show that not all customers have good taste.
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I know for a fact that I have terrible taste, everything I like is the last to sell, things that I feel are dull, uninteresting even ugly sell much better.
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I made a pair of candlesticks that were really out of proprtion. Sold at a fair we did and lo and behold the same person bvoubght another pair, nearly as bad the following year. Our basic ruke now is that design is a personal choice, quality is universal.
Pete