AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bryan Milham on July 08, 2013, 08:50:22 AM
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Okay, so it’s quite, I thought I’d ask a question that’s been bugging me for a while… How do you manage your customers’ expectations.
I was recently at a wood store and while sorting through one of the boxes for the Banksia Pods I wanted. I got talking to someone beside me doing the same thing. It transpired that we were both intent on making the same item but he was pitching his price at £7, less than half what I charge. ???
Now I don’t want to debate the merits of underselling items, that’s been done to death. But how do you convince people that what you are charging is a fair and reasonable price.
For example, in the past I have paid upto £7 for a pod. So to sell it at £7 would be a loss, okay those I was sorting through were under £4. But all the same, I’ve found that if I tell people I’ve paid Up-To (I don’t admit what the current ones cost) they then consider my price acceptable. Economical with the truth, maybe. ::)
When selling face-to-face what methods do you have for proving your price is ‘Fair and Reasonable’? ;D
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I work my charges out according to an hourly rate I pay myself, cost of materials (including finishes, abrasives etc) and at lest double it. As far as convincing people, if they want quality hand crafted work then they pay for it, if they want cheap imported work then they will probably go to a store or online anyway. Generally speaking i get few who argue the price. Those who charge the sort of rates that barely, if at all, cover cost of materials are doing those of us trying to earn a living no favours. A sore point with a lot of full time crafts people I'm afraid.
Pete
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This could be interesting and I'm going to watch this thread very closely, just to see what pointers I can pick up to help me as I start out selling my 'output' from the workshop.
I can see that I'm going to have some difficulty setting a price on the bowls that I've made from the pieces of Thuya burr that I discovered in the job-lot of timber that I bought a few months ago. The blanks cost me £1 each, so I'd be daft to sell them for that, plus my labour costs. On the other hand, if I were to consider the replacement cost of these blanks I'd have to charge very high prices for the bowls, and as a new turner without any reputation established, I can hardly command such high prices. I guess that I'll have to set a realistic value on the pieces ....but goodness knows how I'll do that.
Another point, of some relevance to this thread....a friend of mine had a stall at a major event at National Trust venue; he makes and sells individual wooden toys, jig saws etc. Either side of him there were stalls selling equally high-quality items - one a woodturner, the other a portrait photographer. Sales at the event, over 2 days, were dire, to say the least, yet, across the aisle from him was a stall run by a bit of a 'chancer' who had placed orders with several local bakeries and purchased pies from them....fruit pies, savoury pies and a few other similar items. He grossed £1,000 by the morning of the second day, then packed up and went home because he'd sold out. He had no lead-in time involved in making stock, just a capital outlay on one day, which he covered more than adequately by the next day. I guess that this speaks volumes about the public, who can spend money to get into events like this so that they can marvel at the beautiful artefacts on sale, whilst munching a mass-produced pie from a stall that made no attempt to conceal the fact that they were mass-produced and sold under barely legal conditions... it also says much about the sort of person most of us are....could we be happy buying and selling pies instead of being creative?
Food for thought...ha ha!
Les
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How long you have been turning is not as important as the quality of work that you produce. That is partly what customers are paying for. You can buy a wooden bowl in a supermarket for less than the blank costs but you will find it is made with laminated wood and often with inferior glue. Your cost should reflect the price of the wood if you need to replace it not how much it happened to cost you this time. If you are selling at craft fairs and the like people will be looking for bargains and expect cheaper prices. The price they pay is for handcrafted, usually unique items that are locally made friom sustainably sourced wood. (unless of course you mass produce everything the same from endangered trees LOL) Another selling point is that if anything goes wrong with the piece they can contact you and get the problem sorted, it does happen.
Pete
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There are always those who can and do make a living at Turning.. but it's not always Turning alone .. we all do other elements besides.
It's right as each of you look at it, it's more over the cost to replace, than the initial cost or being free and our time is far from free as well.
Pete sums it up the quality of work is the all important issue and that has been done before ..
The funny thing with this coming up, is I've only recently read an interesting post on Robin Wood's Blog, as it's for all too read, the link .. http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.co.uk/ (http://greenwood-carving.blogspot.co.uk/) ... at the time .. Saturday, 15 June 2013 .. How to price craft work, business advice for craftspeople.... since then it's interesting on his bowl prices .. Electric is not an over head for him, other than his light .. Pole Lathe .. where do you plug it in .. :D .. and a few look to be from spalted timber .. Thank you Robin for your welcomed Blog.
Cheers David
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Hi
I think the point about being 'known' is a bit misleading. As turners most of us have heard of Ray Key or Bert Marsh but outside of turning their names mean very little. There are some hard core collectors that know 'who' to collect but generally a name means nothing. It's all about quality and service.
I long ago stopped worrying about how much (or more correctly, how little) other people charge - although it does pay to keep an eye on the market - but basically I quote a price and I either get or don't get the job. So far, there is plenty of turning out there that needs doing.
That said I am rather different to most turners. I don't make stock and I don't make artistic works that I then have to find a market for. I make what customers order and so am lead entirely by my customers. I find it keeps it interesting that way.
Cheers
Richard
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How long is a piece of string?
Dave Regester gives a formula for pricing in one of his books...can't remember which...you could email him.
All full-time turners who make stock (of whatever) to sell at events are always up against the amateur (and that's not derogatory: simply the definition of somebody who isn't doing it as a legitimate living. IE: paying insurance, commercial rent & rates, utilities, other overheads, and declaring the income to HMRC and paying any tax due on it).
"recouping the cost of making it" is a common claim, but it doesn't help the craft and the public's perception of it.
I price based on a standard hour. And recently I decided that I don't do parts of an hour anymore. If it takes ten mins then you pay for materials, finish etc and an hour's labour. If you don't like it you can always go elsewhere.
For decorative work I price on instinct really. What can I hope to get for it? It works or it doesn't. And I only discount to repeat customers or for bulk. If asked "what's the best you do this for" I add £20.
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Gent's,
We all know about turners underselling their work because of no overheads. Also the rough formula for arriving at a price.
I want to try steer the topic back where I wanted it - Managing your customers expectations.
I'd like to thank Pete who's tried to stay with the question by mentioning the quality of his hand produced items and the fact that if you have a problem with it in the future, he'll try to assist with rectifying it for you.
What is it you do or say to a person who when given a price says, 'What!, for a bit of wood?'
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To that question there are 2 approaches...
1. You can take time with the customer and explain that it takes great skill to produce each item, individually, by hand, using carefully and ecologically sourced material, hand finished and polished using specialist products that will keep your item looking good for many years to come. The item has a guarantee and you are prepared to stand by your craftsmanship etc etc
2. You can save your breath and look at marketing your work better/to a different audience because if someone asks this question (along with a great number of others I've heard) then they don't, and probably never will, appreciate the work you are doing and certainly won't be persuaded by any spiel you give.
Most of my customers come through my website or through word of mouth/recommendation, so if they come to me they already know they will get a quality hand turned item and not some mass produced copy lathe rubbish. That's the first hurdle clear. The next is for you to be professional and make dealing with you a simple and pleasurable experience so when they part with their hard earned money they do so happily.
HTH
Richard
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If, like Richard, myself and others, you deal with customers personally then getting into a good relationship with them is important I believe. I have someone popping around tomorrow for their third purchase from me and that, to me, is a huge compliment. As Richard also says, the sort of people who think that we charge too much for a piece of wood will be unlikely to buy from us anyway. Perhaps we should look at our work as a more elite, quality, designer product. The sort of person who sees a hand made item of jewellery or a designer jacket as 'expensive' will be unlikely to view our work any differently. The last thing we should do IMHO is to dumb down what we do. Costing and valuing our work appropriately is important and we should be prepared to respond to customers in a way that explains that they are important to us and are getting something of value, not some old bowl knocked up in a garden shed in our spare time as I have heard it put.
Pete
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I think attitude is one of the most important aspects of managing customer expectations. You don't have to be a professional turner to have a professional respect for your customer. On taking on commissions you should listen to the customer carefully and understand what it is they want and you can then explain what is involved in the making of the item.
Some customers are concerned about the source of materials used(others don't give a jot) so their wishes should be taken into consideration.I point out that I hand select my woods at the timber yard to give the best results and this again is reflected in the price.
I talk to them as an equal to establish the guidelines that I should work to and suggest alternative designs or materials if needs be that I feel will be more appropriate for the finished piece rather than what is easier for me to work with.
I regard each customer as the most important customer I have ever had(which can be difficult at times) and try
to make them feel relaxed and relieved that they are considering giving me the order. I reassure them that all possible care will be taken in the making of their requested piece and that I look forward to bringing their perceived ideas to fruition. One of the last things I talk about is how much each bit will cost as they are not interested in that but they do want to know the final cost. So after explaining about the quality of the wood, the making process and finishing, how they will feel owning this piece and how envious their friends will be and sometimes agreeing not to use the design for anyone else (they like one offs)then the customer begins to realise that the price they pay will be reflected in the quality of what they are buying.
Richard points out that the customer needs to have a pleasurable experience when dealing with you and I wholeheartedly agree with this especially when you think that you may get a repeat order from them or they may tell their friends about you.
I try to avoid tight deadlines as I hate doing rush jobs, even though I turn everyday for a living I still want to enjoy the turning experience of each job and this transmits itself into the finished item and so improving or maintaining the quality expected.
Lastly, knowledge of your own ability is very important, maybe that should be confidence of your own ability,only take on the work that you know you can complete satisfactorily and if you cannot do this find someone that can do it and pass the customer on. This will enhance the customers experience and helps build a relationship based on trust within the craft that should be reciprocated by the person you pass the work onto. This will have the effect (eventually) of the public trusting our craftsmen and women to deliver the best possible result for them.
Sorry to be a bit long winded,nearly finished now, after doing and explaining all of this to the the customer you have now moved the status quo, you have brought the customer into your world and they start to see what is involved in the making and why you charge what you charge, there is an empathy with you and your work ethic and they will feel more inclined to place the order.
If they still feel the price is still too high tell them to go find a hobby turner that will do it for less than the cost of the timber. ;D
Regards
John BHT
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‘How much, it’s only a piece of wood’ is a comment I had a few years back at a craft fair from a woman who was looking at some turned apples and pears priced at £10.
I picked a lump of wood out of my box under the lathe that was full of bark pockets and intrusions held it out towards her and said ‘I can sell you this lump of wood in its raw state for £2’ she didn’t reply but gave me an evil look.
Anyway I mounted the piece on the lathe and started turning it, I noticed she was watching me and I proceeded to turn a rotten pear, applied a finish, polished it and fitted the flower and stalk then stood it on the end of the lathe.
She then said ‘you’ve just turned that beautiful pear out of that grotty piece of wood’ to which I replied ‘yes I have, it’s not the piece of wood you’re paying for it’s my skills and experience’.
She then asked ‘how much is that pear you’ve just made’; I replied ‘this one is £15 as a rotten pear is harder to turn’, she promptly got the money out a paid for the pear, another satisfied customer.
I never haggle or reduce my prices, if a customer say’s it’s too much I just say it’s not the item for you then, sometimes they will come back 20 min later to buy the item and ask if I still have it sometimes I have to say sorry I’ve just sold it you should have brought it when you first saw it instead of trying to haggle over the price.
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The times I have mused over this question can be counted on the feet of a thousand millipedes. :)
It is so complex and depends I have found much on the market you are selling in.
One thing at the core of it I believe of any market is that if items are well made then they will sell, they will sell within the market being sold in reflecting what other similar items will sell for.
IE a noodle bowl is a noodle bowl is a noodle bowl, people will expect it to be sold within a certain bracket reflecting what they have been exposed to, so efficiency in production is a major factor to maximise profit.
If an item can not be compared and it is marketed at a high end then a good return can be asked. If it is well designed and produced, unique, etc it generally will sell, but this market is very discerning and generally know what they are looking at from a design point of view. It is also a bloody difficult market to get into as I have been told on many occasions by owners of mixed media galleries that they will not stock turned wood as it is generally poor quality and had a bad persona.
If people quibble the price they are either never going to pay anyhow.
People with the disposable income to pay high end don't quibble or question they just don't buy if it is not up to scratch and go spend their money else where.
But it is not easy, and no one will make a million through woodturning, not unless they start off with two.
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The answer to the original question is to supply what he/she wants when it's wanted at a price they are willing to pay. If they come back for more you're in business.
However in the open market where you are trying to sell what you have decided to make, the factors are wide open. Probably the most important are time and place, you can always play around with the price.
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The issue is when you are given an answer you stop thinking, challenging and pushing what you do further and as a result just accept what the masses say sells, which mostly is mass produced poorly made crap from abroad, so managing customers expectations should be quite easy. (not referring to your work Bryan) just what most people expect at craft fairs or similar venues, and I am not only referring to woodturning but selling in such environment for all makers, and how their time and skill is expected to be ' a bargain' by the punters because it is a weekend craft fair and it has been made by hand in the UK.
What I was trying to get across before is that there is no simple answer, marketing and choosing your market is a big part of selling anything and I would say a larger part than the item itself.
Go to the local cheap shop to buy a low cost salad bowl made from 'Rubber wood, you will get on for a couple of quid, or market you work to a select market who appreciate unique hand made items and you can sell for this price http://www.davidmellordesign.com/acatalog/Craft_Wood.html (http://www.davidmellordesign.com/acatalog/Craft_Wood.html)
Here is another link. https://www.othercriteria.com/search/?s=Spin%20Chair&p=beautiful_poker_face_spin_chair (https://www.othercriteria.com/search/?s=Spin%20Chair&p=beautiful_poker_face_spin_chair)
So yes if your customers keep coming back then you are doing well but it all depends upon which type of customer you want to keep coming back.
This is a decision you have to make depending on what you are satisfied with but just because another wants to charge £7 for an item and you want to charge double does not mean you are wrong. Yours may be better and sold in a different market, and before you manage your customers expectations you need to choose your customers and know their expectations, know the triggers that makes them buy and those that turn them off.
Obviously I don't want to take your question off track and talk about quality but you can't measure customers expectations without considering it.
People will buy anything for a low price but selling for what an item is worth is very different.
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I am enjoying this thread immensely, well done Bryan for suggesting it.
How about turning the question round and asking what are your customer's expectations? Put this way does price play a part in the answer?
Regards
John BHT
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The cynical side of me says that the customer expects a much as possible for as little as possible but that isn't strictly true. I think what the sort of customer I aim for wants value for money, how he/she deems value can be different though. Those who appreciate the work and thought that goes into hand crafted work be it turning or embroidery, will be prepared to pay a decent price for quality work if they can afford to. Those who simply want something that they think looks good or is practical will possibly balk and end up going for mass produced work which is a lot lower in price. Most of all the customer wants to be able to trust the craftsman, know that there is comeback if there is a problem and feels that the crafts person is trustworthy. I suspect that many of us judge customers unfairly by trying to sell the wrong type of thing to the wrong people. As has been said the most important thing is to know your market. Key rings are not really suitable for a gallery and sculptural pieces, except perhaps as eye catchers, are not the thign to try ansd sell in the local market. Perhaps turners who sell, hobbyist or professional, could all do with lessons in marketing, I know I could
Pete
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Pete...I just read your latest addition to this thread and I agree with you, especially with regard to the concept of not selling key-rings in a gallery, or sculptural pieces in a market - concepts that I'm sure few of us would disagree with. Indeed, the problems start in the common ground somewhere between the two! Several weeks ago I visited an arts and crafts centre at a busy location close by to a reservoir and RSPB centre in Mid Wales. The main gallery/shop at the location had 30 or 40 pieces of turned wood there and I guess that they were pitching their produce at a market somewhere mid-point between the two examples that you have just given us. The problem (for me) was that the designs were uninspiring, the amount of tool-marks left in the wood was frankly shocking and the finishes were abysmal - wax finishes had been flecked with pock-marks where they had (presumably) been splashed with a few rain-drops and the finish had generally dulled to a matt finish which did nothing to highlight grain patterns that a more professional finish might well have highlighted. Turning this back to Bryan's initial question about liaising with customers about their protestations, I tentatively picked up a piece and asked the lady at the sales counter whether the indicated price was fixed or not, especially given the poor state of the finish, and her response was to say that this is a shop, not an auction-house!
I have no idea whether or not the shop sells much of its wood-turning stock, but I do hope that they read this forum!
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Reading the good sense from Mark & Pete highlights it's more Marketing .. and John's as to what customer's expect ... I think it's safe to say that it would be something turned from wood .. with a commission they'd have a design, some idea of the timber they'd like to be used .. the rest is to work out the feasibility given the size of the form, the chosen timber, finish and your time .. plus the other overheading.
If it's just in making whatever comes to mind and a market to sell it .. then it's as has been mentioned, who too and where .. to that point .. would you buy the piece or any of them yourself, given as you've made them ..
We are all shoppers of a kind .. the need is to eat & drink .. there are so many stores .. why Asda and the likes or the extreme M&S .. service, food or price .. what is their marketing that makes Us shop there .. I've heard it said some drive miles to a store .. just for the free parking .. then go an shop in the town .. given the price of parking .. it's like the buses or train keep putting the price up and less use them ... I'm going off the topic a bit ..
What marketing makes you spent your money, is it just in the name .. turn it round and it's how we can have others spend their's with Us or on turned stuff Art ..
Interesting prices on not only Ray & Dave's work .. Hmmmm sand up a whole blank for a chopping block .. what've I got ...
Les, you highlight the saddest part of marketing for woodturning, it is hoped and the aim of this Forum is to aid and help all with an interest in turning to get and be better .. if only they'd use here and we all be constructive with our comments.
Cheers David
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If it's just in making whatever comes to mind and a market to sell it .. then it's as has been mentioned, who too and where .. to that point .. would you buy the piece or any of them yourself, given as you've made them ..
Interesting prices on not only Ray & Dave's work .. Hmmmm sand up a whole blank for a chopping block .. what've I got ...
Hi Dave
Yes I would purchase my own pieces if I had the money, but I could not afford my prices, just like I could not afford a Ferrari. :)
It is always an interesting subject. One point that comes across to me again and again with woodturners is what you have said with regards to 'interesting prices' on Ray and Dave's work for a chopping board.
Marketing and selling has nothing to do with the cost price or process time of materials, saying that aside the prices on the David Mellor site I believe are reasonable, seeing that you have respected makers producing items which are then purchased by a business for onward selling and being sold to discerning customers.
The issue that most woodturners sell items for pence because they have no understanding of running business from turning nor what constitutes good design or finishing only undermines what we do as makers. So if we can make quality items as with any other business we have to aim it at the high end market.
Les's example of the market in which the RSPB are selling wooden items. The issue here is they are only interested in making money for birds, which is fine, but they have no concern about the items they are selling and are best placed to sell items from China to maximize their profit for the charity, that makes good business sense.
This in itself would tell me it would be the wrong place to try and sell top quality work and I would look for another outlet. However if people are happy to make less for their work and want to sell it at this price is also fine, we all sell our work at the price we choose.
Yesterday I went to a BBQ for a family birthday. One of the people attending I had not met before and found out that he was a cabinet maker for a high end company in the South West. The type of clients they had send £70,000 on a single piece of furniture without asking for the price before commissioning the work. Kitchens of £250,000, I saw pictures of the work, amazing and worth the money.
But knocking up a few cabinets and turning a few bits and piece, glue it together, what's the fuss. :) do it in an afternoon. :)
In relation to who and where I sell my work, some in galleries but more often than not now it is word of mouth or being contacted via the internet. There are loads of good mixed media galleries in the UK to sell from. Unfortunately very few of them will accept wood turned items with the reason being that it is of too poor quality and has a stigma attached to it that the gallery owners do not want to include within their outlet.
It is a shame but this is the experience I have had in the past when approaching them and sadly I have to say I learnt a long time ago never to say initially that I am a woodturner.
Apologies to Bryan if this is going off the initial question but I believe it is all interlinked. If you disagree jut tell me to bxxxxr off and I will shut up. :)
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I guess a short answer is to just find customers with high expectations. :)
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Hi Mark, I for one, if not everyone, always find your views valid, after all you're the gentleman most at the pointed end of Marketing Turning in every sense of the word and know only too well the work involved, given you've knocked on a few door in the past and will in the future as well .. I know .. it's Business and never a piece of cake to get that opening, it's easy getting in the door, it's as much to sell yourself, as it is to sell over your work, before being kindly booted.
Overall .. whatever anyone of us makes and the price, is down to that individual .. and so many that Turn are today Hobbyists .. and if I recall correct in the Woodturning Magazine a few years back in the chat with a pro. an most are American (could even Our Magazine be Marketed at the United Sates and not us) the person expressed the future of Turning was in the hands of the Hobbyist .. we can't get away from the fact .. but hope that via Ourselves and this Forum, the AWGB and at Club level the issue of qaulity can be addressed, if not pricing and subsequently the overall public awareness of wood art as being a recognized form.
Apologies if this is going off the topic. just tell me to bxxxxr off ...
Cheers David
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Always enjoy chatting with you David, I am always open to listening to others thoughts on a subject as this is how I learn. Just because I say a certain way works for me does not make it so for everyone. Challenge everything people say and fine out our own avenue, is something I believe strongly in.
I had written another marathon reply :), but the computer crashed, hey ho, not meant to be. You will be relieved :) If you are at Yandle's come and carry on the chat. :)
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Hi Mark, You'll be relieved I may not make it down to Yandle's for this falls' show ... :( ... however there is Burcot Woodturners before that ... ;D ...
Cheers David
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A very interesting discussion, and it has lead me down a couple of thought paths:
Firstly, marketing...
For large organisations they spend millions on marketing, and this goes from tiny little things through to huge TV advertising campaigns. As sole traders we can't compete with this but we can watch and learn. At the end of the day, the largest part of marketing is presentation. If a company presents themselves well and can get a potential customer 'on-side' then persuading them to part with their hard earned cash becomes somewhat easier. Notice I make no reference to Woodturners or carftsmen. I feel that many Woodturners get so caught up in being a maker/designer/craftsman or whatever, that they forget that actually the first thing they need to be is a businessman. We don't have the budgets of these big stores but by making a decent website, presenting ourselves well and our work (which HAS to be of the finest quality or the whole thing is for nothing) and conducting our business in a professional manor, whether this is via the phone, email, Internet, or face to face, then this is step one. We need to be confident, honest and knowledgable and all this comes across well to a potential customer.
Empathy is an important tool that I feel many people don't use. Think how frustrating it is to use a poor website. What do you look for when buying a product, you only have to think about the last time you bought a tool, machine or bowl blank for example. There are plenty of places that present the kit well, have friendly, well trained and knowledgable staff who can help in your decision making. There are probably an equal number that give somewhat shoddy service with somewhat iffy kit. You only have to browse the forums to find such comments and you know yourself that if you hear a glowing review you are more inclined to shop there, as you are less likely to if you hear the horror stories about poor service and products.
My other train of thought comes from the comment that 'the future of turning is with the hobbyist'. I think it could well be. The main problem is that there isn't that many people like me about, and there doesn't need to be, but if you look at the artistic side of things, a professional turner that as to feed a family can not spend 5 weeks making an item and then wait another 5 years for it to possibly sell. Only a hobbyist can spend time like this and not worry if it will sell or not. You read of these guys in the magazine who make these amazing things and they may well sell some of them, but you're not telling me they can living from the income!! Please correct me if I'm wrong!
Just some thoughts
Richard
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When selling face-to-face what methods do you have for proving your price is ‘Fair and Reasonable’? ;D
Going back to the original question - my answer is you don't have to prove anything. How many retailers do you interrogate about the fairness of their prices? So why should we be any different?
I think in all the years I have been selling, the only people I ever got into a discussion with about prices were other woodturners! The buying public either buy or they don't so my approach is to set a price that I'm happy with. I doubt if I get it right every time but hopefully I learn from my mistakes.
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Think how frustrating it is to use a poor website. What do you look for when buying a product, you only have to think about the last time you bought a tool, machine or bowl blank for example.
Richard
Hi Richard...I couldn't agree with you more. I was looking through the AWGB web-site and found a thread started by someone trying to sell timber to us - via ebay.They gave us their trading name and assured us that we wouldn't be disappointed, but when I checked out their sellers' account, all that they had for offer was a single lot of 4 pond-snails. I remarked upon this in the thread on our Facebook site and they replied to say that they were sorry, but would have some timber for sale soon, but it is now 2 months since they started the thread!
Not daunted by this, they gave me another account/sellers name that they trade under and suggested that there would be good timber on sale there, but once again, there was nothing for sale. What does this say about the trader? In a word, I think that they are 'Unreliable' and I therefore won't bother to check them out ever again.
It's such a shame that people with a product to sell let themselves down like this.
Les
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A very interesting discussion, and it has lead me down a couple of thought paths:
My other train of thought comes from the comment that 'the future of turning is with the hobbyist'. I think it could well be. The main problem is that there isn't that many people like me about, and there doesn't need to be, but if you look at the artistic side of things, a professional turner that as to feed a family can not spend 5 weeks making an item and then wait another 5 years for it to possibly sell. Only a hobbyist can spend time like this and not worry if it will sell or not. You read of these guys in the magazine who make these amazing things and they may well sell some of them, but you're not telling me they can living from the income!! Please correct me if I'm wrong!
Just some thoughts
Richard
Oh I don't know Richard, It is nice getting a sensible return for pieces and it sure beats working for a living. :)
The lifestyle is chilled, loads of coffee breaks and busman's holidays to places I could not afford to go are a privilege to take part in. :)
Demonstrating, teaching and writing is a bonus. It all depends which way you want to go in life, I have been on the treadmill with the stress that goes with it, blow that.
Creative for me is the future, be it hobbyist or full time it matters not, the quality of work does.
As Paul said and on thinking about it, for me too the only people I have conversations about cost/price are other wood turners. One thing I have learnt is price low and you attract those that don;t want to spend much money, price for what it is worth and those with disposable income will pay quite happily.
:) :)
Looking forward to carrying this on over a few pints :)
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Hi Mark
It wasn't you I was referring to when I talked about artistic turners. You are basically a production turner, albeit one that is in denial!! ;) ok you're not Glenn Lucas and you are never going to be a production spindle turner (I've seen your spindle turning remember!! ;) ) but in many ways, how you work and the methodology you use is essentially that of a production turner.
You make your noodle bowls, which are what you might call your bread and butter. I bet you don't make them one at a time, taking a couple of hours each like a hobbyist would. You employ production techniques to make the process as quick and efficient as possible.
Even with your artistic work (I'm not going to insult you by suggesting you bang them out willy nilly, but...) you are very efficient and certainly with your signature pieces with those little finials, you have the production down to a fine art.
None of this takes away from your talent as an artist. It just shows that you have a deep understanding of timber, how it should be worked, the tools and their geometry and the best and most efficient way to combine these to produce an item. You also have the vision to produce really high quality artistic work and have researched your market and know how to use this information to your advantage.
So I say again, that apart from the amount of coffee breaks you take, you are basically a production turner, and certainly don't fall into my previous sweeping statement.
I rest my case :D
Richard
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Hi Richard
I am glad I did not offend as I was taking the pxxx. However after earlier reading your reply I have just come back from my first counselling session ref production turning. :) :)
Joking aside and managing customers expectations is very complex, I know galleries take a fare whack of the retail price, but this is one of the things I am happy with as a good gallery or outlet will manage the customers for you.
Here is a link to a chap that I find very useful and you all may too. http://creativebusinessstrategies.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/what-am-i-worth.html (http://creativebusinessstrategies.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/what-am-i-worth.html)
he has many great articles and seeing this is what he does then it is far better to explore his ideas than listen to me. :)