AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: TONY MALIN on February 24, 2015, 12:49:39 PM
-
Hands on meetings should in many ways be the lifeblood of wood turning, but they tend to be the least well supported in both low attendance and reluctance to take part. In fact I heard recently that at a neighbouring club they sat around chatting and drinking as no one had come prepared to do anything.
As treasurer I don't mind the low attendance as we usually still cover our costs and make a profit, whereas with visiting demonstrators we usually make a loss despite better attendance.
The difficulty is getting people motivated.
-
Hi Tony,
At my local club, the hands on evenings are always well received and those attending are keen to participate but we do go prepared with something to do. There's not much point having a hands on session if nobody does anything!
A while back, we had a free month on the calendar and gave the members a choice of a hands on evening or a demonstration by a pro turner. They voted almost unanimously for a hands on evening.
-
As Paul says, the evening must be structured, it's pointless going to a 'hands on' with nothing planned because all that will happen is sitting and talking.
Personally I would rename it a 'Workshop.' where work is carried out. There must a designated subject to be worked on that evening, who will be 'instructing' (for want of a better word) There are a whole bunch of things and I would start at the beginning,,,,TOOLS!!! this could be broken down even further, gouges one week, scrapers skews the next week, sharpening the following week then when they are mastered then get onto proper turning, spindle, bowls etc. etc.
After all, this is what a club is about, to advance the skills, it's fine watching demonstrators every month but perfecting your own skills means practice and doing that on your own at home only promotes bad habits, practicing with other members present allows criticism and bad practice to be put right and it encourages rapid advancement of those skills.
Well that's what I think anyway....
Andy
-
At bothBristol & Burnham clubs, hands on is structured. It means small demos by club members and several areas setup so attendee's can move around the different stands.
I must admit, Bristol being the bigger club, can put on 5 or 6 demos. But Burnham always has a problem lathe, where members can bring in something they are struggling with and George goes though it and helps them. The advantage of a good chairman and turner who's willing to put himself out.
-
Hi
I went to a club last week where they tried to get people to be 'hands on'. I think part of the issue there was that they only had one lathe available so if you wanted to have a go you had to get up in front of everyone! A lot of people aren't happy to do that.
I would definitely suggest having something structured that people no about in advance and trying to get more than one lathe available on the evening.
Ollie (new to forum)
-
At my club when we have a hands on night we usually end up with maybe 4 lathes set up. Some one brings sharpening equipment and we end up with small groups gathered around watching and giving advice and most importantly in my book..........talking to each other. To me this is what woodturning clubs are all about, the interaction between members, the fellowship for want of a better word. Its the odd throwaway comment, something like.."I have a longer grind than that on my spindle gouges" that will spark discussion and debate amongst the members.
-
Many thanks for your comments gentlemen.
We have all the facilities and have tried many formats. It's still hard to decide how to get more involvement, so we'll have to go on trying.
As regards "workshop" we do that separately with an extra meeting OCT-MAR. It takes the form of tuition for beginners (not many now) and those who are looking for specific help like thread cutting, or skewing or as recently using a newly acquired specialist tool.
When we first started it was pretty chaotic with 2 to a lathe. We now manage to provide one to one assistance, and just about cover the costs.
-
and just about cover the costs.
As long as the costs are covered is all that matters as far as money is involved, the important thing is that members are learning and the more interesting it is for club members and the more they learn then the more the word will spread and what follows is more members and the cash they bring with them.
Andy
-
I am fortunate in belonging to an good club but I suspect that a lot of clubs are struggling because the members simply want to go along and not get involved. Sad but apparently clubs are having to close because of this. Not just wood turning though, true of a lot of clubs
pete
-
Hi everyone,
We also at our club had difficulty in getting members involved in hands on evenings we only used to have 2 Lathes so it was difficult to get many on the lathes when you have about 40 members attending anyway 2 hours seems to fly bye,our last few hands on we have had 5 or 6 lathes on the go and all of these are brought in by members as we cannot store anything at our venue 2 of these are club lathes and this has been a success there are members who still like to have a chat but that's ok because most times they are asking other members how to do certain things we also have a table of members work and people are always interested in asking questions of who turned this piece and how they did it.We also tried something different at one meeting a member who made his own Pole Lathe brought that in it was so popular everyone wanted a go.also occasionally we have members bring in some of their unwanted tools to sell.We have had an all day hands on/clinic we run this from 10:00am till 4:00pm and members can drop in and spend a couple of hours or all day if they wish and bring their problems with them.
Try something different and enjoy ;D ;D ;D Regards John
-
Hands on does not only mean work on the lathe.
I've also seen carving, pyrography, use of a spray gun, CAD software etc.
One I did was making/adapting you own tools from screwdrivers and chisels for hollowing.
-
I am fortunate in belonging to an good club but I suspect that a lot of clubs are struggling because the members simply want to go along and not get involved. Sad but apparently clubs are having to close because of this. Not just wood turning though, true of a lot of clubs
pete
In the words of the pointy eared guy. 'To not get involved to the point of extinction is not logical Captain'
-
True Graham. One meeting we had at our club recently had a pyrographer demonstrating and those of us with the equipment were encouraged to bring it in. Half the time at least was spent with us having a go under her supervision. gave those that have never done it a chance to try it out.
I wonder how many are a bit like me, I am happy to join in and get involved where I am able but am terrible at volunteering, ask me to do something and usually I will say yes though.
Pete
-
True Graham. One meeting we had at our club recently had a pyrographer demonstrating and those of us with the equipment were encouraged to bring it in. Half the time at least was spent with us having a go under her supervision. gave those that have never done it a chance to try it out.
I wonder how many are a bit like me, I am happy to join in and get involved where I am able but am terrible at volunteering, ask me to do something and usually I will say yes though.
Pete
Glad you said that Pete, I want you to take over as chairman/vice chairman/secretary/treasurer/tea boy/ general dos body/(delete those not applicable) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
True Graham. One meeting we had at our club recently had a pyrographer demonstrating and those of us with the equipment were encouraged to bring it in. Half the time at least was spent with us having a go under her supervision. gave those that have never done it a chance to try it out.
I wonder how many are a bit like me, I am happy to join in and get involved where I am able but am terrible at volunteering, ask me to do something and usually I will say yes though.
Pete
Glad you said that Pete, I want you to take over as chairman/vice chairman/secretary/treasurer/tea boy/ general dogs body/(delete those not applicable) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
That OK John? LOL I am as disorganised as it is possible to be so the deleted ones would cause more problems than they are worth.
Pete
-
Wonderfull!!
We've now turned (pun intended) full circle. Hands on to hands off!!
-
you are right of course Tony but look at the fun we have had along the way. ;D ;D ;D
-
Hi all.
We don't have hands on in our club anymore for several reasons.
We can only store one lathe in the venue were we have our meetings I used to take in three lathe's and all the equipment for hands on for about four years and it was a waste of time.
Members just could not be bothered or were too shy to have a go.
Grown men shy can you beleave.
I had to store all the equipment and getting help with it was nearly impossible they were all to frail or them that were not were working.
Another thing was safety at the last hands on we had a young lad about 14 and two of the seasoned turners were showing him techniques that I considered to advanced for an absolute beginner or were wrong and possibly dangerous.
Every month now we have a demo and everybody seems to be happy.
Four times a year I have an open day in my workshop so that members can come along and have a go and get help with their turning.The last time I did it only 2 bothered to turn up and they were committee members so either they know it all already or cant be bothered.We have another open day on the 14 of next month if members don't use it they will lose it I am fed up giving up my time for people that cant be bothered.
Regards George
Something else committee members need to remember if there is a accident they can be held responsible It is all OK until something goes wrong and then the were there is blame there is a claim brigade turn up.
-
Of course you are right George, during hands on events you need eyes up your you know what! I have a small group of tried and trusted turners in the club who I rely on to to help me with the supervision and so far (fingers crossed) we have yet to experience any problems. I fully agree that some members appear to be too shy to have a go but we always insist that everyone is given the opportunity, you can take a horse to water etc etc. ;D ;D
-
Oh dear oh dear oh dear! Why did you add the footnote George?
As I understand it those involved in an event, not necessarily committee, ARE responsible for using their best endeavours to ensure generally accepted safety procedures are in place. From that position insurance applies.
It surely follows that the individuals concerned ARE NOT responsible per se for an accident.
Our club uses the Craftsman Policy and I have written assurance that this includes member to member cover.
However I'm not sure of the outcome if it were to be deemed that there had been willful disregard of these measures. I sincerely hope that situation doesn't arise.
-
Hi Tony.
I think you will find that as committee members you have a responsibility to lay down the rules and make sure everybody applies them and stays safe.Unfortunately in this day and age we cannot hide behind insurance or assume that everybody has common sense.
In theory we should all produce risk assessments .
Regards George
-
Under what regulations?
-
We do not hide behind insurance. We get financial cover in the event of a claim following an accident (with provisos).
-
Tony although not governed by them as such my club committee is run on the Nolan principles, good enough for them good enough for my club.
-
Hi Tony.
I think it is more or less the same principle as company directors can now be held to task if something goes wrong and in some cases if the are proven to be negligent or irresponsible they can go to jail.I am not trying to be alarmist I am just saying it is something we as committee members need to bare in mind.
This is all I will be saying on the subject as I don't want to be drawn in any further.
Off course I could be wrong it would not be the first time ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Regards George
-
So I've now looked up Nolan.
Whilst his 7 principles are very laudable they relate to Public Office and I don't see their relevance to the committee of a private club.
I tend to deprecate the application of documents outside their initial remit, but I admit we feel a need to be seen to follow relevant H & S regs, specifically PAT.
I too will refrain from further comment unless something new crops up.
-
Hello
Just read Tony's comment about H&S regs specially PAT testing. A quick search on the HSE website www.hse.gov.uk for pats testing will take you to a page with a set of FAQs and answers. This clearly states that PAT testing is not a legal requirement. A visual inspection by a competent person will, in many cases, suffice.
Of course there is nothing wrong with taking the view that your club will enforce such testing.
George also mentions Risk assessments. Both the policy we used from I Wallace and the new one from Tennyson require risk assessment to be In place for each club/branch. Guidance on this is provided in the handbook of which each club or branch has a copy. This guidance is based on the HSE's guide to risk assessments
Basically it boils down to common sense. If you think it's wrong then don't take the chance. But don't overdo it. Risk assessment is not about avoiding all risks and creating a risk free society (hse again!)
John (BHT) our safety officer can help you with these if you have any queries.
Cheers Dave
-
I agree entirely Dave.
However the argument we have adopted is that if a case arose it could be argued that PAT is best practice, so much as we feel it's OTT it is better to do it.
Unless there's been a change Tudor Rose insist on equipment taken to their show is certified. Which I think is because it takes place in a public authority hall, but also because the system is operated close to its limit.
I'm also aware from someone who until recently was involved in testing that faults were sometimes found.
This is another example of legislation being misapplied. It was intended to improve the safety of workers operating electrics in all sorts of situations where portable really meant more than just movable.
-
Hi
Tony and I have had some offline communications and we disagree about the need for a risk assessment.
As a result of our emails I have agreed that I would clarify the statement I made about Risk Assessments. The policy from Tennyson, and indeed the Craftsman Policy, doe not actually state a risk assessment is required.
However, in my discussions with Tennyson they have indicated that they would expect one to be in place. This demonstrates that the club or individual has considered the risks and put in place reasonable precautions. This is a very useful document to have in the event of a Public Liability Claim.
As I've said before we are not in a position to give insurance advice and if you have a concern or query please contact your insurance broker.
It is also recommended within the AWGB Handbook that a risk assessment is in place and the templates and examples are also available, as is help from John the safety rep.
The risk assessment is basic common sense and the AWGB guidance follows the HSE's guidance on this topic.
As an example an entry may be (It's actually a table in MSWord and therefore much easier to read )
What are the hazards?
Lathes
Who might be harmed and how?
Demonstrator/Audience. Tripping over unsecured leads. Lathe not being stable and falling, lathe unsteady, personal injury.
What are you already doing?
Lathes should be of an appropriate condition, size and specification for the demonstration being staged.
Cables running along floors to be appropriately covered.
What further action is necessary?
Inspection on the day to check all lathes are appropriate for the demonstrations planned– resolve issues before demo.
Action by whom?
Committee member allocated to that demo.
Actions by when?
Prior to commencing the meeting and during usage.
I hope that clarifies the situation
Cheers Dave
-
Thanks for that clarification Dave. Anyone with a copy of the Craftsman Policy should re-read Clause 14 on Page 13.
I want to emphasise the fact that our club does not do a "Risk Assessment" does not mean that we do not assess risks.
Why don't we? For the simple reason that all sorts of complications can arise when you commit to writing. (Think of the present difficulties for the Government in dealing with the Anti Terrorism Act).
The fact that you may have a written Risk Assessment is of little use if you err in practice. It's what you do that matters not what you say you do.
I've said a number of times on this forum that you can only rely on the wording of the policy and if there is a dispute then ultimately only a court can decide if something was reasonable or not.
We've been in existence long enough to know what to look out for, but were a bit surprised recently when meths was sprayed onto a thin walled goblet and ignited to dry the surface before sanding. It was a bit like a chip pan fire. Not very safe for someone with facial hair!!
-
didn't think you could set hair alight unless you have something like hairspray in it which is flammable.
-
We've been in existence long enough to know what to look out for, but were a bit surprised recently when meths was sprayed onto a thin walled goblet and ignited to dry the surface before sanding. It was a bit like a chip pan fire. Not very safe for someone with facial hair!!
A demonstrator did the same thing at Axminsters Nuneaton store during the 'ten turners turning' day last year. Not a problem but raised my eyebrows a bit.
-
I've been reading this post with interest as, having been involved with two local clubs, I have seen two diametrically opposite attitudes. At one, the hands on evenings form a significant part of the calendar, are very well attended and raise funds to pay for guest demonstrators. At the other, the finances have convinced them that hands on are a necessary way of raising funds, but they still struggle to attract members to hands on meetings. To be fair, they only had one lathe. That is about to change, but, as has already been said, there are numerous other things that can be done at a hands on meeting.
Having said that, what really prompted me to post this message was the final paragraph of Tony's post.
We've been in existence long enough to know what to look out for, but were a bit surprised recently when meths was sprayed onto a thin walled goblet and ignited to dry the surface before sanding. It was a bit like a chip pan fire. Not very safe for someone with facial hair!!
I have seen this done, both at a club and on a DVD but, aside from the safety implications, I queried its efficacy. It looks spectacular but all that is happening is the meths vapour is burning. Any heat generated is well away from the surface, so there is minimal drying effect. I don't know if you have ever seen a stage trick where a small amount of meths is poured into the showman's hand, then set alight. Since it is the vapour that is burning, not the liquid, he feels virtually no heat. Looks spectacular but his hands feel virtually no heat.
May I suggest a better way of getting some heat into a wet turning is to hold some of the shavings firmly against the surface with the lathe spinning. The friction will generate warmth, and, of course, this was one of the traditional means of 'finishing' a turning.
-
I'm not sure about raising funds. As I said originally the low attendance is offset by low costs, mainly hire of the premises at £12.50 an hour. We make a small ex gratia payment for a demo by a club member and make a good profit. Outside demonstrators are expensive. The object is to balance the books.
I withdraw my reference to a chip pan fire. I was thinking of the initial flash but of course there is a longer after burn.
Presumably the amount of heat required to "dry" the wood depends on how much meths is used.
-
At the risk of upsetting someone dare I say that people do not turn up for a hands on night as these nights could be better?