AWGB Woodturning Forum
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Frankenwood on July 30, 2018, 04:17:40 PM
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Hello all,
This would be my second post so I'll review me first ;D
I am a relative beginner to turning but find that I love it! I started with a drill driven lathe and wood chisels and had great fun. Now I have graduated to a Record CL1, three speed and have a few secondhand gouges. I have joined a club and the next task (some of you may recognise this) is to present a coloured piece.
So I have set to and made a couple of spirit based colours, and they have worked well giving a nice transparent sheen to the work - this first piece is oak - however it has highlighted ALL the mistakes, and there are a few. Mainly it seems to be toolmarks which aren't visible on the unstained piece. I will say that this is the first piece and a 'try out' so it's not the final design. I've attempted to attach a pic, please forgive me if it doesn't work.
Has anybody been here before, can anyone offer solutions or advice? All comments greatly appreciated.
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Any surface finish which has any degree of transparency, will show a stronger colour where there is a thicker coating. If you get the slightest piece of torn grain, a snag or catch from the tool, a slight crack in the timber, or just a sanding mark the finish (especially things like spirit stains) will seep into it and form a thicker coating than it has elsewhere, and consequently, a stronger colour.
With any stained or coloured finish, there are no short-cuts. Sharp tools, good tool control and proper abrasive-technique will all work together to give the surface finish needed for the colour to be applied.
Les
p.s. well done for trying, especially with a natural edge to a part of the vase, but concentrate on your tool technique and abrading before you venture too far.
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Frankenwood many turners spend as much time finishing as they do turning. There is no point in turning a nice piece only to ruin it at the last hurdle by poor finishing techniques. I can see by the picture that you have not abraded enough with the coarser grades of abrasive before moving on to finer grades. The other thing is to finally sand with the grain to get rid of all of the cross grain scratches caused by the abrasives. The other thing is to notice how "open" the grain appears to be when finishing, a grain sealer may sometimes be in order.
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I think most has been covered in the two previous posts so will not repeat. From when I take the last cut with the tool sanding and decorating can take up to a week depending on what you want to achieve some of that can be waiting for stains and finishes to dry properly before the next step.
I totally agree with Les's comment about learning tool technique as well as the sanding.
It is good that you want to venture further
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Don't worry Frankenwood, you're not the only newbie who has to take all of this on board. :)
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Hi, Wow! Blown away by all your lovely and helpful replies, thank you all.
Obviously I'm new to all this and I am coming to realise that I have only just begun to dip my toe in the water. Had no idea until reading other posts just how important sanding actually is! Until now I've just kinds waved the odd piece of sand paper at it and thought 'that'll do', other MAJOR mistake has been sanding at top speed......it's quicker and works, so why not? Errrrrrr, where do I begin😁?
Just reading back some of the previous threads has given me food for thought. Sanding at lower speeds being one. And I do tend to want to finish it TODAY, patience not being one of my strongest points.
I did actually seal the piece but only AFTER colouring, also beginning to realise that I could perhaps have sealed before...... So much to learn, and that point, that one just there, may be why I love doing this so much.
Really gentlemen, I am deeply appreciative of all your kind replies, thank you so much.
If everybody is agreeable I'll update this thread with any progress I make......bad or otherwise.
Kind regards
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Something worth adding is that once you start to add finishes and or colour is to learn what finish to use over which type of colour just take it one step at a time it will all become easier as you progress. Remember walk before you run
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Hi Derek, thank you. It is a steep learning curve. And I am learning and appreciating the value of a really good helpful blog (and I'm learning about that too...😀).
It might be useful at this point to say that the only reason I'm travelling this particular path is because the club, of which I am a brand new member, has a monthly competition and it is for a coloured piece, and in an effort to support the club and to learn and to participate (something which I am not good at, another learning curve there) I am attempting to enter. Not just to enter, but to enter well...... so it's not my normal practice, but it is great because it's pushing me and motivating me to do better. And if that's not a wonderful reason to join a club for any newbie then I don't what else would be😀
By the way, I'm not saying all this to blow me own trumpet, I really do mean it.
Getting back to the subject:- it's oak, a bit which I cut from a felled tree, been felled 2-3 years by now, it has been sanded at high speed - 320,400,600,1200, some ultra fine wire wool there too, it was taken off the lathe and a slice cut off the top (it was a look I was going for but I don't think it has worked) the cut was graded with a dremel type tool to round it out, the top was then painted black and the body 'washed' with a spirit stain (details below) then a shellac sealer applied to the whole, then lightly hand sanded with 400, 600, 1200, then Black Bison wax applied and machine polished to a light gloss. Probably all done finish wise in a couple of hours......... took about a day to turn the object beforehand.
The stain is an experiment. Amongst other things in my life I was/am an artist and I reckoned that artists acrylic (of which I have a large quantity) mixed with a spirit (in this case Meths) might work as a stain. I'm really pleased with the results of the stain, just less pleased with the final result which is all mine to own - as I said a steep learning curve. Thinking now though that the stain might work better with water.... but the stains are still in development as yet.
That might fill in a few gaps so that you all know the full process I've gone through an how I arrived at this point.
I do hope I'm not rabbiting on too much and I do appreciate all the positive feedback.
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....it has been sanded at high speed - 320,400,600,1200, some ultra fine wire wool there too...
OK....not wishing to sound negative, but please accept this as constructive critique.....starting to sand at 320 grit is a technique which few other than the most accomplished turners ever achieve. When the wind is blowing in the right direction, I start to sand at 240, but if I'm frank, it's more likely to be 120/180. Therein lies a part of your problem. You cannot overcome the grain tear-out of poor tool technique with 120 grit abrasive, so to start with 320 is an exercise in underwater soot juggling....it ain't gonna work! I have 600 grit in my arsenal of abrasives and I use it just occasionally, but for general turning I end with 400 grit, then use finer Nyweb pads for the waxing process. It simply brings us back to what has already been emphasised; work on the tool technique, get walking mastered then you can have a go at running.
Les
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i agree with les start with a much coarser grit.
i sand with 100 and then 180 and keep lots of worn out 180 which acts more like 300 in the end.
i don't go higher unless the timber requires it.
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Hi Les and Seventh,
Many thanks for that advice, I will put it into practice....though it might mean another trip to the tool shop to get more sandpaper😀 And maybe just?......😁
It does sound a bit counter intuitive though, surely more is better when it comes to sanding and finer is better, and faster is better, not slower and coarser and less....?
Oh, and Les, and anybody really, don't worry about sounding too negative, it's not, it's helping me to understand that I have a long way to go and there's so much more to it than I realised and its fascinating. And I appreciate that everyone is taking the time, and making the effort, to help.
Seventh, can you explain what you mean?:-
"I don't go higher unless the timber requires it"
How do you know the timber requires it - or not?
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Hi Les and Seventh,
Many thanks for that advice, I will put it into practice....though it might mean another trip to the tool shop to get more sandpaper😀 And maybe just?......😁
It does sound a bit counter intuitive though, surely more is better when it comes to sanding and finer is better, and faster is better, not slower and coarser and less....?
Oh, and Les, and anybody really, don't worry about sounding too negative, it's not, it's helping me to understand that I have a long way to go and there's so much more to it than I realised and its fascinating. And I appreciate that everyone is taking the time, and making the effort, to help.
Seventh, can you explain what you mean?:-
"I don't go higher unless the timber requires it"
How do you know the timber requires it - or not?
For the moment keep it as simple as possible, start with 120 grit and work through each grit until you get to 320grit removing the scratches from the previous grit before moving on to the next one. Keep the speed down low as stated otherwise you run the risk of overheating the piece and producing minor cracks which can be unsightly.
As you become more experienced then you may want to move to even finer grits depending on the wood or finish required.
Once you have cracked the sanding and finishing then move onto the colouring and other forms of decoration.
It is great that you want to take part in the club competitions and learn new techniques. try to enter the section or even the ones that you feel comfortable doing within your capabilities. They are good for getting to know where you need to put in more work.
You don't normally need to go any smoother this leave the wood in an ideal state to accept the finish
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Frakenwood well done for getting involved with your club that is a positive step in the right direction. It is a shame that more turners don't get involved.Do not feel too dispondent as you actually bring something to the table (forum)that we are all interested in. The fact that you are experimenting with paints and stains and are willing to share your results benefits us all. The reson you should start with a coarser grit abrasive is to get rid of any tooling marks from your work. This could be torn grain or grain that is "standing up" or maybe a bit of bruised timber where the heel of the tool rubbed.(You are rubbing the bevel when you cut aren't you?) As you finish with each grit rub with the grain and then step up to a finer grit, try not to miss out any grits. Sometimes it may help to dampen your wood(especially on a bowl) as this expands the cells and makes sanding easier. We don't sand at high speed because that can create heat which in turn can cause the wood to check or split especially on end grain.
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Just a couple of basics for you on abrasives.
One, the numbers. The numbers you see on the back of your abrasive is the number of holes to the inch the sieve used to grade the crushed glass before it was glued to the backing. I don' know how they do it now but the same numbering system is used, so the higher the number the finer the grit. ( some wet or dy papers run to thousand of holes to the inch, imagine drilling that!)
With the coarser grits you will leave a series of scratches, the next finer grit will leave finer sctatches, which if you have done the sanding correctly, the depth of these should meet the depth of the previous grit, and the next finer grit will do the same and so on ad infinitum. Going finer will increase the energy needed to remove wood and will heat up the wood.
A rough rule of thumb is that you should not go more than a 100 drop in grit size. i.e. when you use 150, then the next will be 240, for some strange reason there seems little logic in the way the grit sizes decrease so you wont get steps of 100 down the grades.
Just remember that you must remove the scrathes made by the previous grit, or you will seal a nice piece of work and see some lovely scratches undr the polish!
One final point, I am a bit on the mean side when buying stuff for the shed, but I will pay out for Abranet, which is in my opinion the best on the market today, you can get rolls or strips of it on Flea Bay for less than you local toolshop will provide, and non of the DIY sheds sell it. I know this because I am a bit on the mean side!
Ron
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Seventh, can you explain what you mean?:-
"I don't go higher unless the timber requires it"
How do you know the timber requires it - or not?
ok, i do a fair bit of production turning rather than decorative bowls so for my business of turning skittles for the west country i don't need a spectacular finish.
i do like making bowls however and i do one fair a year where i try to have lots of different species to wow the public into thinking what on earth is that. some species do not require that much finishing and sand very well. other can be a bit of a bugger to get nicely sanded for example hard maples like some field maple that i have had on the lathe today. it needs extra care to get rid of the sanding lines even fine ones as they stick out like sore thumbs when you add any finish (mine is danish oil and buffed) so i will go to a higher grit or worn out 180 paper then possibly wire wool and buff the bare wood with its own shavings to get that near sheen on the bare surface.
only then do i apply oil and wire wool and buf every couple of days till i can get it no better.
these pics are achieved just using the process i described.
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This is an interesting discussion!
If I want a really good finish I have found that it is perversely quicker to have a wider range of additional gradations of abrasive paper.
For example my usual routine uses: 100, 120, 150, 180, 220, 240, 280, 320, 400 (and for a super smooth finish), 500, 600
This succession eliminates the scratches left by each previous abrasive much more quickly and effectively than say jumping from 120 to 180.
I have tried using "used" or "worn" coarser abrasive papers to substitute for finer grades but it just never works like that for me and just introduces unwanted abrasions. I tend to use each strip (or disc if power sanding) of standard cloth backed abrasive once and then discard them. After much experimentation and trying different combinations I have found that this method works best for me in producing consistently good finishes.
Tim
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On a slight aside what do you find the best abrasives, I am a recent convert to Abranet I find it is quicker and produces a better finish than even the best quality abrasive papers.
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Wow! Just wow.
My thanks to you all for your informative and helpful contributions. Obviously I've been going about it all wrong. So far I've not had the time to get into the shed and get to finishing a piece - started one the other day but had a catch and threw the piece off and damaging it beyond repair😭
Particular thanks to Derek and Burywoodturners for your technical guidance and support, I'm going to be able to use your advice and make informed decisions now about why I use that grit.......
To the Bowler Hatted Turner, great support, thank you. Yeah, I feel that if you join a club, any club woodturning or not, then it is incumbent upon you to support it (and this is for every member of every club) and if a comp is there then enter it, to the best of your ability. Breaks my heart when I see clubs fold because no one cares enough.... Anyway that's a rant for another thread I reckon. Wanted to say, specifically, that I do bevel rub - I've got and read the bible by Keith Rowley (brill book, should be a requirement, in my opinion) and have had to re-learn some of my technique, cos I had developed bad habits.........still have some of em too, but I am improving slowly😀
Seventh, words fail me. Beautiful bowls man, just beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing them with us. When you use wire wool, is that actually during the application of the oils or between coats? And I think you are the first to mention natures sandpaper - the shavings from the piece itself, why don't we do that more often do you think?
Tim😀 That's a whole new layer man! Interesting that you discard after one use? Surely that gets pricey?
Once again thank you all for your contributions, I'm finding it fascinating and helpful, and now I'm about to take some this into the shed with me, any advice for sanding green cherry......?
Regards
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i wire wool as a last pass before i buff with the shavings as it just gets it that bit finer.
i also cut back the oil if i am applying lots of coats once it has cured just to get any particles that may have settled on it then wipe with kitchen roll whilst it's spinning then a apply more oil.
stu, the 180g sandpaper i use is made by mirka called PROMAX which i believe is for the automotive industry and seems to me to get a finer finish which you need for a car body before it's painted...
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Hi all, I'm attaching a wee piccie of today's project - it's turned to form but not finished for anyone that may be interested. I'll post the finished piece once it's done too.
For information:- it's cherry, cut about 11 months ago, finished to 180 as per directions given on this discussion, item stands about 110mm high and is a bud vase. I'll probably finish it with shellac then wax because I like that gleam I get from wax rather than a high gloss. I am anticipating some movement from the wood and am interested to see how it will go (club meet in about two weeks, so hopefully not too far before then)
Regards
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Oops! See attached.
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Frankenwood, in the interests of being constructive I make the following observations. It appears that you have some chatter around the edge, this can be anattractive method of decorating but I feel in your case it is because of poor tooling. It happens because the chisel is held at the wrong angle and with too big overhang over the tool rest, rotational speed also plays a part. It also looks like there are still snading marks on the top.Go finer with your abrasives. A good piece to start on though, well done.
Where abouts are you?
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Hi Bowler Hatted Turner,
Thanks for your comments, ALL constructive comments very gratefully received😀 Indeed you are right, very slight chatter marks round the rim - I hadn't noticed them nor was I aware the they had happened🙁 At that point it would have been the skew chisel and as I was taking VV light cuts most likely at take off or trying to be too light. Anyway they are there and hopefully I can minimise them with sanding. You are correct too in say that there are still sanding marks, but as I'm not finished sanding yet I think I can get away with that.........
I'm way up north in the badlands.....
Many thanks for you help.
Pete
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Lots of good advice and tips in this thread so I'll quickly throw in some of my own.
Don't waste money on expensive abrasives at the course end (60 - 180), any painters abrasives will do and are far cheeper. You only need good abrasive for the 2 or 3 final grades. But you must work through the grades properly.
I love you idea of making your own stain from artists paint and spirit, I've never heard of that before. So even as a newby turner, you have brought something new to the fore.
I'll try anything to work colour in a different way, shoe polish, crafter's spritzing sprays, they all offer something but the one thing I always failed with is Wax crayons. You look at them, they are coloured wax and think they would add colour, nope, never managed to get anything worthwhile from them yet.
Keep turning, keep posting and keep asking questions. I information in the hive mind of this forum is astounding.
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Hi dr4gonfly,
Many thanks for your kind comments.
Right now I'm working through the abrasives I've got - a job lot of wet and dry 320-1200 - though I did find some mesh discs I bought a wee while ago for my circular sander, only 80, 120 and 280 tho. Have just bought some discs for power sanding, in the correct grades, because I'm no longer physically capable of hand sanding off the lathe.
I've been working on a couple of pieces for the club comp the last few days and will get round to putting them up here once they are as ready as I can make them😀
But, in furtherance of this discussion, I had some thoughts regarding using acrylics for colouring wood. It occurred to me that acrylics are water based ( and this was borne out by the absolute mare of a time I had mixing the stuff, even using meths as the spirit) and I had a go on a waste piece and the results are good, better than I expected if I'm honest. Now, if you've a mind to have a go, be aware, it takes VV little colour from your tube to work. You won't need a huge tube, even a sample tube will do. Just dab a little into your container and mix it with a huge quantity of water until you have the palest of washes and then paint it on, be quick cos it goes in fast and dries nearly as fast...... now, it should be said, I wanted a pale transparent colour which showed the grain, if you want more solid colour then use more paint, experiment first until you get what you want.
One of the benefits I can see is that the range of colours and shades available with artists acrylic is absolutely HUGE, being an artist (ex really, but it never really goes away) I have large selection available to me. But as colouring is not really my thing, believing as I do that wood is in itself truly beautiful and adding colour is a bit like gilding the lily.......(not that there's anything inherently wrong with colouring, no offence intended to anyone who does like it or use it) ...., I'm not sure that I'll make that much use of it.
I'm reasonably pleased with my results and once I've got it to the level of finish I desire then I'll post a picture.
Dr4gonfly, have you tried using crayons as a 'stick' and then polishing? Not something I have any experience of.......
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Hi Frank ?
I can pass on my thought and proces re sanding
Before I go anywhere near my turnings with sandpaper I allways feel the work with my fingers , Lathe set at slow speed run your fingers along the work piece and you can feel undulations easily , Back to work on the high spot or low spot with a round nose scraper ( Or whatever tool you prefer ) Then and only then start with the sandpaper , I start at 120 and work through all grades up to 600 , DONT miss out any grades as each finer grit paper will remove and sanding marks from the previous grade , miss a grade and the finer grade cant cope with removing the sanding marks .
Re how I sand , I use a small piece of cut up mouse mat 50 x 75 from a computer as a backing for the sandpaper ,
Now sandpaper , A hole new topic , Sand paper basics are grains of sand glued onto backing paper , The job is to cut the wood surface with sharp edges of each grain of sand , The faster you sand ( Lathe speed ) and the harder you push the faster the edges of the sand round off = no more cutting affect and this then leads to heat build up , Can cause micro cracking on the wood surface as well ,
When sanding with a backing pad at slow speed and a small piece of sand paper , rotate the parer 4 times , 12 o'clock , 3 o'clock 6 o'clock 9 o'clock then bin it
Look behind the paper and you should see fine dust coming from the turning , if you hold the paper on the workpiece for to long a perion the paper will clog up with dust and stop cutting , start gennerating heat = No good
Also when using the mouse mat and paper method you can feel when the paper stops cutting and starts gennerating heat ( It burns your fingers ) I this happens you have held the paper in one position for to long .
This heat build up is what kills rotorey sanding pads and the velcro sponge then fall off as the heat causes the glue to melt .
Slow and steady with regular re positiong of the paper wins the sanding procedure
Try it and see how you get on
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Copied from my Blog
Sanding
Don't ever underestimate the importance of sanding as it can be the making of a piece.
There is nothing worse than to see a piece that somebody has made and you can see sanding or tooling marks that could have been removed with just a little more time and effort.
Sanding a bowl.
It is important to get as good a finish of the tools as possible as this makes sanding easier and you are able to start with a finer abrasive.
If you have a bit of tear out or tooling marks then start with an abrasive that is course enough to remove them.It is no good starting with say 320 grit to remove tooling marks or tear out it simply will not work.Start with 80 grit if that is what it takes to remove any marks and and tear out.
When you are sanding your bowl slow down the lathe to about 500 rpm and sand across the bowl using very light strokes.This applies to the inside, rim ,and underside of bowl.
Do not press hard with your abrasive as this will create heat and wear out the abrasive.When you have finished with your first chosen grade of abrasive you should have a good shape that is free of tear out and tool marks .If it isn't take the time to go back and do some more sanding as this is the most important bit.
If you are now satisfied with the finish you have achieved with the chosen grade of abrasive move on to the next grade.The important thing to understand is that each grade of grit can only be expected to remove the sanding marks that the last grit left.Never go more than 100 grit apart in other words don't expect 320 grit to remove marks left by 80 grit it wont.
It is also a good idea to wipe the bowl over with tack cloth between different grades of abrasive as it is possible that some loose particles of abrasive can be left on the surface.
If you find after sanding to say 320 grit and you can still see marks don't keep using 320 grit go back to say 120 grit or 240 grit and work your way up again.Do this as many times as is necessary as it is the only way to get a perfect finish.
Another thing to remember is that worn 240 grit abrasive is not 320 grit abrasive.When it has lost its sharpness it should be thrown away and new abrasive used.
Hand sanding is something I very rarely do anymore as it is slow and hard to achieve a surface without slight sanding marks.
Most of my sanding is now done with the Simon Hope Pro sanding system.I have found this system to be so much quicker and more efficient than hand sanding.For some time I used electric drills for power sanding but found the bearings on the drills wore very quickly and the noise of an electric drill can soon get on your nerves.
The beauty of the Simon Hope system is the the head revolves at the speed the revolving wood wants to be sanded at.
I have no connections with Simon Hope and I get no rewards for recommending this tool the only reason I recommend it is because it really does work.
There is another similar system on the market but it is nowhere near as good as the Simon Hope system as The Simon Hope system has free running bearings and the other system has not.
Sanding Between centres.
All of above applies when sanding between centres.
When you sand between centres the grain is running parallel with the lathe bed therefore as you sand with the piece turning most of the time you are sanding against the grain.It is very important to keep the abrasive moving briskly from side to side.Obviously this is not possible when you are sanding coves or beads but the sides of coves and beads are actually side grain therefore they are OK to be sanded without moving the abrasive from side to side.
Good tooling is more important on spindle turning so as to retain the crispness on coves and beads Etc.
It is very easy to sand away detail when sanding between centres therefore more care needs to be taken.
Another good tip is to stop the lathe between grits and gently hand sand with the grain.
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Frank,
Yes I've tried the Crayola type crayons and they don't impart any colour, however I've now bought some Artists Oil Pastels, they might give a better finish, I'll try anything.
Acrylic Paint, recognising you say you are (were) an artist, I know they can be mixed with water, but I'm not sure it's the best medium for that. Tamiya do an acrylic paint thinners, and it's Isopropyl Alcohol. I used to paint wargame figures.
Too much water made the paint break up but the isopropyl just thinned it.
You might also find that using water raises the grain, requiring additional sanding, whereas isopropyl does not.
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Hmmmm, oil pastels, there's a thought. Let me know how it works.
Artists acrylic are a water based medium which, when dry is impervious, as its water based it is difficult to mix with most spirits. I used denatured alcohol ( or methylated spirits if you like) which I thought might be easier than a standard thinners. It was, but not by much. I was aiming for a transparent glaze, which I thought I got close to. Actually I was very pleased with it. But using water to thin the paint works well, but you have to be very quick and flood the piece, if you let any part of your piece dry then you will get an overlap where you cover the dry section, this effectively doubles the coverage resulting in a darker stain at that point. And water is acrylics natural element. If you want a solid colour then the approach with acrylics would be different I reckon. And water shouldn't 'break the paint up' it'd be unusual for that to happen - with artists acrylic at least.
As to raising the grain, that happened but it's not really an issue for me as I'd sand lightly afterwards anyway, and I got almost as much raised grain with my spirit based stain.
The way around the raised grain, which worked for me, was to seal first then sand then stain then seal. I used a shellac sealer, that gave me a better finish and better colour.
It is still a work in progress and maybe always will.
Thank you all for your continued support and advice.
Pete.
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All this say that you are really experimenting with this colour thing.
Well done and keep us up-to-date. We are all learning from you and your previous experience with painters art colours.
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Mo uses calligraphy inks for colouring, she blends them to get different shades. They will seep in the wood if the edges of the pattern/ drawing whatever isn't sealed, she does that with pyro. It doesn' raise the grain and behaves more like a stain.
Pete